What is the point of knockback?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-12-02 18:15 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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It's mostly an efficiency problem.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Unless you're fighting range-heavy mobs (which are fairly rare), then I don't see the concern. The enemies will generally be knocked back out of your RttC, at which point they're not attacking you anymore, will then stand up and run right back into RttC's range to go back to meleeing. I suppose if you're relying on large numbers of weaker enemies in order to take hits from a larger enemy, I could understand the trouble.
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I have the mobs locked in taunt from my attacks, feeding RttC, in range for Foot Stomp and nicely packed for my PPP AoE as well as all of the AoEs of the ranged support players. On top of this, as a Brute, I want them to attack me for constant high levels of Fury.
If I have to suddenly stop, and chase down targets one at a time to kill them - it becomes an exercise in frustration. Especially since I don't need the mitigation from KB.
Sinlge target knockback isn't really a problem here, but reckless AoE KB scatter all over the place is just messy and inefficient.
Lots of "I"s, "me"s, and "my"s in these statements.......and that's the problem here. Always is, always will be.
Get 8 self-centered and lazy players together and you have problems. Doesn't matter what the cause is of those problems (knockback is certainly not the lone cause of teaming issues).
It's of course no wonder that those too lazy to deal with their in game issues are also those too lazy to do a search on the subject so that we don't get several a month of which usually involve the same arguments from the same people. Managing knockback, by all parties (whether that is the user moving to the correct position or something like a /WP moving to a corner), isn't difficult.....heck, it is almost as easy as hitting that big search button at the top of the forum.
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Really, it's the same situation for KB users. Setting up the enemies to AoE them to death is efficient, no doubt there, but set-up time taken into consideration (herding, *bleh*) it's not always completely optimal nor counter to AoE KB. When it's optimal, use it. When it's not optimal, hold off until it will be. No different from KB users needing to stop and consider their effects.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
It's mostly an efficiency problem.
I have the mobs locked in taunt from my attacks, feeding RttC, in range for Foot Stomp and nicely packed for my PPP AoE as well as all of the AoEs of the ranged support players. On top of this, as a Brute, I want them to attack me for constant high levels of Fury. If I have to suddenly stop, and chase down targets one at a time to kill them - it becomes an exercise in frustration. Especially since I don't need the mitigation from KB. Sinlge target knockback isn't really a problem here, but reckless AoE KB scatter all over the place is just messy and inefficient. |
But then, if your style completely deprives someone else of theirs, can you not find a middle-ground compromise? Perhaps ask them if you can get off an alpha before pushing the enemies around? Even if it's not the most efficient, efficient doesn't equal fun.
Example of compromise: My Psy/Earth dom is a control monster and Earthquake is just too good an effect to pass up. Throw another dom like Plant in the mix and that Earthquake isn't so optimal and/or negated by Roots. Well, I'll just pass on using it and lay down more quicksand and my own AoE immobilize while the Plant confuses everything. That's a compromise that I didn't even have to discuss out. Even more negotiations are possible with reasonable players.
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Again we are saying the same thing. It's a side line to the larger point, but the difference between saying "Fire has no secondary effect, so it does more damage" and "Fire's secondary effect is more damage" is a matter of syntax. The larger point stands--if Energy Blast did not have Knockback as a secondary effect, it would have a different secondary effect or do more damage. | Fire doesn't do more damage because it has no secondary effect. It actually does exactly the same amount of *base* damage based on recharge as every other set. Its just that its secondary effect *is* damage - specifically DoT. And in an exception-that-proves-the-rule situation, Fire is not required to pay for any of its DoT damage in endurance or recharge costs - because its considered a secondary effect. |
Regardless, it doesn't answer the problem of whether Knockback is a bonus or a penalty. Fire out damages Energy on the basis that Energy supposedly has an edge with knockback. How you feel about the balance of that is derived entirely from how you feel about knockback. I personally feel that knockback is a shadow of the other debuff and mezz powers, in particular taking a backseat to knockup and knockdown, which can also hit bosses and the like but without the disruptions knockback is notorious for.
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I'd like to see how Immobilize, Fear, Hold, or Sleep will draw enemies closer together. And Taunt only works if the enemy is in melee mode, has no ranged attacks, or you run around a corner from them.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Correct...well except for immobilize, fear, holds, sleeps, and taunt. But besides those, you're absolutely correct.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
the difference between saying "Fire has no secondary effect, so it does more damage" and "Fire's secondary effect is more damage" is a matter of syntax.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Which would then have spawns overlapping each other on some maps, leaving them clumped together anyway in large teams. So maybe I don't get the whole 16, but I get 8 of this spawn and 3-4 of the other.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If I was going to add scattering effects to the AI, I wouldn't leave such an exploitable hole in the process. The critter spawning code would be adjusted to mesh with the AI movement code so that they did not spawn completely within the footprint of most AoEs.
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That's assuming anyone still wanted to play the game if they mobs were running all over the place. As I stated in another KB post, scatter is annoying. KB is annoying. I don't care if it's good mitigation (it's not), it's a PITA.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Walk up to a spawn. Fear, Immobilize, Hold or Sleep them. Kill them. Rinse and repeat.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
I'd like to see how Immobilize, Fear, Hold, or Sleep will draw enemies closer together. And Taunt only works if the enemy is in melee mode, has no ranged attacks, or you run around a corner from them.
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Arcana wants to change the spawning rules to prevent that, but then like I said, the mobs would just have overlapping spawns. Or she would have to lower the spawn density to adjust for that. Both changes that are so completely unwarranted (not to mention being done in service of adding annoying scatter to the game) that I'm going to go out on a limb and say they aren't likely to happen.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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On one team, I was getting annoyed because of AoE KB Scatter. But then I was playing my Fire/SD Scrapper. So I said screw it and started going WAY ahead of the team.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
But then, if your style completely deprives someone else of theirs, can you not find a middle-ground compromise? Perhaps ask them if you can get off an alpha before pushing the enemies around? Even if it's not the most efficient, efficient doesn't equal fun.
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Didn't die, I was just clearing spawns by myself. A Brute decided this was a good idea and started taking on their own spawns. Neither of us died, but the team wasn't as safe because we weren't there to pull some aggro (there was a tanker) and a couple of deaths happened in the main group.
Folks wanted us to stay together. I chose not be a jerk in that instance and complain about KB. I stuck with the team. It was a PITA. If it wasn't a TF I probably would have dropped. It's situations like this one that makes me feel that pro-KB players are the more unreasonable. I don't see much middle ground being given up by the pro-KB folks.
KB looks cool. It is SOMETIMES useful, but in no case is it more useful that KD or KU. I don't see why people can't just own up to that. KD, KU are effective. They are efficient. They are helpful. They do not have any downsides. All I would like for the game is a choice. If folks love KB, great, but I would just love a way to excise it from my characters and groups.
If that makes me a [naughty word for male sexual organ] then so be it.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I agree.
I don't see it ever happening, but it would be nice if most KB attacks were changed to KD. I say most instead of all because there are some powers that would be overpowering when changed to KD (like Hand Clap et al). That way if you wanted KB all you had to do was stick a single KB IO or SO in there and off you go.
Another issue as I see it is chance-for-knockback. If I've got knockback, I want it to be 100% reliable. On the rare times I use Hurl on my brute, its because I want something to be knocked back for positioning purposes. KB is sketchy enough as mitigation, it doesn't have to be unreliable on top of that imo.
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Great, it was only on a rare occasion that you had issues with KB. So it's not a big deal if you compound it with "KB can sometimes be good and useful".|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
On one team...
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But in your example, I don't really see a big issue. All you want is your Alpha AoE dmg then all you need to do is get to the spawn 1st and click. You don't have to run 3 spawns ahead (which kinda doesn't help your problem as it just speeds up the team to catch right back up to you) and you don't have to go off to a separate corner of the map either.
Or did you just want to be greedy and take all the kills for yourself? I don't quite know which.
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| It's situations like this one that makes me feel that pro-KB players are the more unreasonable. I don't see much middle ground being given up by the pro-KB folks. |
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| I don't see why people can't just own up to that. |
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I think if the only thinking and planning going on in this game revolves around knockback we have way bigger problems. | I'll own up once the anti-KB side owns up to wanting a dumbed down AI game where all you have to do is click attacks and then run to the next target as oppose to actually needing to *think* or *plan*. Sure, KB doesn't provide that but it certainly mixes things up a bit and for a game, that's a *good thing*. |
Meanwhile, knockback continues to be an ambiguous benefit at best. Minimizing how far enemies are flung actually becomes easier when the enemy is higher level than you. I don't think there's another status effect or debuff that nine times out of ten we're glad to have resisted.
That said, I do think knockback is fun. I don't think its practical. There is very little benefit in flinging an enemy across greater and greater distances when knocking them down achieves the same benefit. At best, knockback is a marginally useful but cool looking niche ability that achieves modest results when used well and has the capacity to seriously impede a team's performance when used poorly. In many of the powers it appears in, it seems more like a penalty to prevent the power from being spammed than an actual benefit.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
I'll own up once the anti-KB side owns up to wanting a dumbed down AI game where all you have to do is click attacks and then run to the next target as oppose to actually needing to *think* or *plan*. Sure, KB doesn't provide that but it certainly mixes things up a bit and for a game, that's a *good thing*.
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I'm not "Anti-KB" at all. I AM "Anti-using-KB-like-a-dumb***".
On my characters that have KB, my claws scrapper being foremost because I play him the most, I restrain my use of KB when it would be detrimental. If I can't find a wall or corner to bounce them off of/into, I use one of my other attacks instead.
Knockback can be great mitigation and help keep the team alive if you use it intelligently. It can also get the team killed if you use it like an idiot and knock stuff into other spawns.
Characters with the Energy Blast powerset tend to be the worst offenders as far as thoughtless KB goes. AT is irrelevant in that, blasters, corruptors, and defenders are equal in this case. Almost every single low level energy blaster I have ever teamed with wants to open the fight with Energy Torrent, often before the rest of the team is in a position to engage. I run across a good one once in a while, but it's pretty rare.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Learn to separate fact from opinion. Just because you can't see a benefit when it smacks you in the face and sends you flying back, doesn't mean there isn't one.| There is very little benefit in flinging an enemy across greater and greater distances when knocking them down achieves the same benefit. At best, knockback is a marginally useful but cool looking niche ability that achieves modest results when used well and has the capacity to seriously impede a team's performance when used poorly. In many of the powers it appears in, it seems more like a penalty to prevent the power from being spammed than an actual benefit. |
I'd be curious to know how KD will mitigate a foe by causing the enemy to waste time getting up to run back to you.
And what option do you have when you want to move NPC A to point B?
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I guess I'm lost in where the actual argument is.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I'm not "Anti-KB" at all. I AM "Anti-using-KB-like-a-dumb***".
On my characters that have KB, my claws scrapper being foremost because I play him the most, I restrain my use of KB when it would be detrimental. If I can't find a wall or corner to bounce them off of/into, I use one of my other attacks instead. Knockback can be great mitigation and help keep the team alive if you use it intelligently. It can also get the team killed if you use it like an idiot and knock stuff into other spawns. Characters with the Energy Blast powerset tend to be the worst offenders as far as thoughtless KB goes. AT is irrelevant in that, blasters, corruptors, and defenders are equal in this case. Almost every single low level energy blaster I have ever teamed with wants to open the fight with Energy Torrent, often before the rest of the team is in a position to engage. I run across a good one once in a while, but it's pretty rare. |
Are you people of the opinion that KB needs to be changed in some way?
Or are you of the opinion that stupid players are stupid?
[edit: hit respond Save button too early. here is the rest of the post]
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Harsh.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Learn to separate fact from opinion.
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| I'd be curious to know how KD will mitigate a foe by causing the enemy to waste time getting up to run back to you. |
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| And what option do you have when you want to move NPC A to point B? |
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Not really. What you said is an opinion. KB does make the enemie run back to you (most of the time), something that doesn't happen with KD or KU. Even if for you there isn't a difference, you can't state that it doesn't exist.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
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"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
I play a Human PB alot, so let's just say I know all about KB, and how to control it.
But man do I get aggravated by *having* to control it. Herding, Maneuvering to place KB against walls, talk about immersion killing...
Captain America: lets take it to em!
Thor: Verily, Captain, but first allow me to gather them to this one spot.
Wolverine: Well hurry up - can't wait to *snikt* it to them...oh, but Cyclops, hold on off those optic blasts - we don't want you scattering them all over the place.
Cyclops: Huh??... Uhm... how about if I knock them into that wall? Would that be okay?
Gah!!!! Hate it! Hate it! Hate it!
I know...these aren't real fights, but dangit we're not playing Chess either. Yeah, herding and grouping is more 'efficient' - who cares? It's also the most boring way to play. Charge in, let the Bodies Fly, that's what I say. Oh, and in case anyone feels I'm not being kind to the Meleers. I have a lvl 50 Tank, 50 Brute, and 50 Scrapper... and I still say let 'em fly!
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Depriving others of their playstyle is exactly how a lot of groups and, especially melee players feel about KB. It does exactly as you described.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
But then, if your style completely deprives someone else of theirs, can you not find a middle-ground compromise? Perhaps ask them if you can get off an alpha before pushing the enemies around? Even if it's not the most efficient, efficient doesn't equal fun.
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And as far as fun goes, having mobs scattered all over and knocked away from you is the diametric opposite of fun for any melee player, anyone with AoEs, PBAoEs - which includes debuffs, damage and heals.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
I'll own up once the anti-KB side owns up to wanting a dumbed down AI game where all you have to do is click attacks and then run to the next target...
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
I'd be curious to know how KD will mitigate a foe by causing the enemy to waste time getting up to run back to you.
And what option do you have when you want to move NPC A to point B? |
In fact, making the mobs run back to me prolongs the enemy's life, not mine.
As for the second part, the only time I want an NPC to move from point A to point B is when point B is directly in front of me...so Teleport Foe?
On teams, I try to put my powers to work for the team as a whole. For some characters, this means shifting roles from a damage-primary role if they were soloing, to a debuff-primary or aggro-management role on a team. For some, it means using knockback within the context of a group effort. It has never meant stop using knockback attacks. Most of my knockback attacks are either directed downward or at a wall. I have rarely run an entire mission without at least some of my knockback attacks scattering the enemy, but I've never felt compelled to apologize for this. I just keep attacking.
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I know it was an oversight on your part, but you forgot to add "for me" in that statement.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
KB looks cool. It is SOMETIMES useful, but in no case is it more useful that KD or KU.
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There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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The thing is, I've been in situation where it's not the difference between 'efficient' and 'inefficient,' it's 'living' versus 'team wipe.' Scattering some enemies with Energy Torrent when the team is doing fine isn't too bad. Scattering some enemies with Energy Torrent when the team is struggling and you knock my RI/EF anchor away from his buddies is not.|
Originally Posted by Socorro
I play a Human PB alot, so let's just say I know all about KB, and how to control it.
But man do I get aggravated by *having* to control it. ... I know...these aren't real fights, but dangit we're not playing Chess either. Yeah, herding and grouping is more 'efficient' - who cares? It's also the most boring way to play. Charge in, let the Bodies Fly, that's what I say. Oh, and in case anyone feels I'm not being kind to the Meleers. I have a lvl 50 Tank, 50 Brute, and 50 Scrapper... and I still say let 'em fly! |
I generally agree that there is much too much whining about knockback, particularly well-controlled knockback, but it only really takes one or two of them to scatter enemies enough to cut down the power of debuff toggles by quite a lot. It also annoys me when I'm the one playing an Energy/ blaster and I have to waste time moving around to KB my enemies into the ground where I could just be cracking skulls if I had more control over it.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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I'll own up to that gladly. That's the game that we play. It's fun.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I'll own up once the anti-KB side owns up to wanting a dumbed down AI game where all you have to do is click attacks and then run to the next target as oppose to actually needing to *think* or *plan*. Sure, KB doesn't provide that but it certainly mixes things up a bit and for a game, that's a *good thing*.
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I spend hours planning out a build, working the numbers, working the market to get the build. Then I want to take that build and mow down mobs. I don't want to think. I did my thinking on the front end.
I don't want to waste time. I just want to obliterate mobs. Faster the better.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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No. KB is NEVER more useful than KD or KU. Period.|
Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
I know it was an oversight on your part, but you forgot to add "for me" in that statement.
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First, Knockup is just a Knockback target at a 90 degree angle per Castle. But that 90 degree angle means the mob is still right there for the killing.
Knockdown results in the mob being able to get back into the fight slightly quicker (depending on if KB is slotted or not), but if the mob is still alive, then it's better that the mob still be in range.
Now with a ranged AT, the mob might still be in range, but with a Blaster or Dominator they lose the use of their melee attacks, which tend to hit harder. Or, like a meleer they have to close the distance they just knocked the mob back. In any event they would be better having the mob stay where they are. But even using a ranged attack, you're no worse off than with KB. And you get all the benefits of the mobs staying in range of AoEs.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Though I'm someone who's not a fan of KB, I'm going to disagree with you.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
No. KB is NEVER more useful than KD or KU. Period.
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I can't use KD or KU to knock foes into places I want them, such as into patch powers, next to allies with AoE damage effects in play, or next to allies who benefit from adjacent foes. This is something I commonly do on teams in particular, but I do it even solo on a rare few characters (Psi/Dark Defender comes to mind - get back in that Tar Patch, you runner!)
I'm on board with the idea that the mitigation of most KB powers is not meaningfully better than KD or KU, and that KD and KU lack the overhead of having to chase down a knocked foe (or at least knock him in a direction that's useful). But knocking things around does occasionally have actual utility. I wouldn't ever build for that utility, and find KD or KU more "hands off" by far, but I've used that utility enough to know your absolute declaration isn't true.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Take for example, my SS/WP brute. The last thing I want when I'm playing that character is to have the group surrounding him to be scattered all over the place.
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