What is the point of knockback?

Actually, the Repel effect is much slower than KB at moving enemies around. (On the other hand, the power [Repel] uses KB)

This isn't necessarily true, especially if by "moving enemies around" you mean "moving enemies to a location which is intentional."

You are correct that Knockback is capable of throwing an enemy from a starting point to an end point at a high rate of speed. If the end point you're trying to throw an enemy to happens to be exactly the same distance as the knockback distance, then knockback will get the enemy there faster.

However, if the end point is closer than the knockback distance, you must have an obstacle nearby to throw enemy into or else you overshoot. If the end point is further than the knockback distance, it may actually slow you down, because enemies become immune to additional knockbacks while they are attempting to stand.

Knockback is also subject to peculiarities that make calculating distance difficult on the fly. When you are higher level than an enemy, knockback distance is increased in addition to speed. Using the same power on the same enemy and changing nothing but the level difference will effect how fast and how far the enemy moves. Level difference also effect Repel, but in practice only the speed is effected (technically distance is as well, since the effect is measured as distance over time, but most Repel powers can be shut off or moved when the enemy reaches the desired destination).

All of this is leaving out the fact that knockback used on a moving target frequently results in shooting the target *away* from the original end point altogether. I'm also leaving out situations where the desired end point is behind an obstacle that must be steered around.

None of this should be taken as a love song for Repel. The fact is, moving enemies from point A to point B is rarely critical in this game. It would be if we had a more direct method, like a knockIN or a knockTO or a reverse-Repel. But for what we have right now, knockback powers are not very practical, and that's why I feel they should impose a penalty beyond simply "you get moved from here to here."

I always wondered why Gravity Control didn't have a power that drew foes within a given radius into the center. It seems like the first power you'd make for such a set.

Because that's impossible with this game engine for now, according to the devs. Gravity has a power which teleports whole groups of enemies, knocks them back from that spot and disorients them instead.

This. There are a few situations I can think of where KB or other forms of moving mobs are very useful, but for the most part, KB is a "fun" effect.

This is something I've always puzzled over. I know the devs know their code, and I believe them when they say it doesn't work with the current mechanics. But it makes me wonder how the combat mechs actually work if this specific thing can't be added.

Specifically, it always seemed to me that to calculate knockTo, you would use the current formula for knockback and just reverse the caster with the target when determining positioning. Perhaps it doesn't work because the game physics API only has a method like "applyEffect" with a parameter for which effect, what magnitude, and from what source (the caster)? Dry speculation only. Sometimes I wish I could (legally) pry the game open and look under the hood!

I wish you would stop stating this as fact when many of us have proven you wrong.

When my Energy/Energy Blaster uses Power Thrust or my Mind/energ Dom uses Power Push on a Boss to keep himself safe, that's not for fun. It's for mitigation, and the mitigation is more effective at keeping mobs not attacking then any other secondary effect.

On CoH and on teams, my blaster does not need to use such specialized powers as frequently but they do come in handy when the silly scrapper aggros another mob or the herding tanks aggros more than their cap worth.

On CoV, even on teams, my dom gets plenty use out of KB. I imagine this is due to the solo-nature of the ATs on the redside and lack of the traditional tank role (since most brutes play like scrappers).

You have a strange view of the word "proof". In the first instance, I didn't state an absolute. I stated that I could see some instances where KB is useful. Second, I don't see how you can say that with either of the characters you mention, that KB is your most effective secondary effect. Indeed, the two characters you mention have secondary effects on other powers that are substantially better to use in this instance.

With an Energy/Energy, I personally believe that the stuns are more effective because it keeps the mob in range of the extremely strong melee attacks of the Blaster. By needlessly pushing the boss away you're giving up Bone Smasher, Energy Punch and Total Focus. Personally, I would use Stun + Total Focus. Yes, you might take a hit, but you'll be just as safe after the stun stacks and you won't be giving up significant damage.

As for your Mind Dom, I really don't see why you're using KB, when you have Levitate. KnockUp again keeps the mob in range of your stronger melee attacks and gives your Dom the breathing space, to stack a hold or confuse. (Assuming you aren't in Domination).

I hate to break it to you, but Power Thrust + Total Focus + ST blasts will work faster and provide better mitigation. This is a little trick I've used for a long time. While PT animates you can cue TF and have it activate after you have KBed the critter away.

Power Push is an exceptionally strong ST blast now. Why should I use an inferior attack on an AT designed for damage output?

Knockback IMO is just like any other power with a cool looking animation and lackluster game effect. Your opinion is different, but you haven't "proven" anything.

This here for me, I can't think I've ever heard one complaint redside. And when I'm playing melee types, I don't mind the second or two it takes me to chase down a knockbacked target, that keeps things fun and fast=paced.

Oops, your bias is showing.

When I can consistently juggle a boss on my Blaster using KB powers. I have just proven KB to be effective at mitigation.

The above example is basic common knowledge known by ANYONE playing this game and doesn't have such a myopic outlook on KB.

Even if people dont say it, alot will be thinking it. NRG primary sucks anyway. If you are worried about what people think and want a more effective blaster, reroll.

Anyone with Air Superiority can do the same without all the carry-on negative effects of KB.

KB can be used as mitigation. Nothing that removes a mob from a Blasters' melee attacks can be properly called "effective" IMO. Proven means it's no longer in dispute. People of good will can come to different conclusions. We have here.

There's no need to characterize your reasonable opinions as fact. They lend them no greater weight in anyone's eyes. People who agree with you, agree with you. As has been stated, this is mostly just folks wasting time during work on a message board. Nobody is going to win. But I'll keep arguing with you, because this is fun.

I agree 10000% While KB has its place and is "effective" in the right hands (disasterous in the wrong ones), KD/KU is the best soft mitigation tool most melee toons can get. Just as any SS or BS player what they think of it. Heck KO Blow alone proves the point.

KO Blow contains a Mag 3 Hold though.

You have to be in Melee range, and allowing a boss to get that close is a poor tactic for most squishy ATs using KB. Using range attacks with KB is the best tactic since it gives the player the best advantage and provides better mitigation than KD due to ragdoll.

This is basic gaming 101 stuff here EG, it saddens me I have to explain this...

Blaster != squishy AT in the right hands. Hell, after the defiance changes, I question whether Blasters even qualify as squishies at all. Tied for 4th in HP. Limited ability to act through status effects. And absolutely frightening melee attacks.

My Ice/Energy Blaster spends far more time in melee range than ranged. I wouldn't give up my beloved melee attacks to waste time playing with KB. Better, my friend, to build for a bit of defensive power and A LOT of offensive power and beat down a boss. Because dead is the best secondary effect of them all!

This is advanced gaming 504 (graduate program!), and it delights me to have to explain it...

I'm not sure what part of "in my opinion" you interepreted as the prologue to an academic paper submitted to the scientific academy of video game physics. I don't think it's shocking that my opinion is an opinion. But perhaps you'd like to know that I am also "biased" against cabbage, sports movies, country music and anything starring Meg Ryan.


This is another way of saying "This statement is fact and the proof is that anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot." What we can agree on is that knockback moves enemies around. Whether it's effective is not an established fact; how COULD it be, when its effectiveness is the very thing being debated?

So you admit it! KB is effective at moving things around!!

>_>


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Anyone else tired of this argument?

The code team obviously could do it that way - reverse the direction of the force applied and you're sorted.

I think the original quote that the game engine didn't support it was from Castle. I think the data-driven system the designers use to set up power effects doesn't allow for negative knockback values to simulate knock-to as it stands today, but could be made to do so with some additional coding.

Thats how I've always understood it.

As I understand it, applying negative knockback magnitude currently provides knockback protection.

Most likely, the easiest (and this isn't saying much) way to provide a negative knockback effect would be to spawn psuedo-pets on the far side of every enemy in range and have them all do a knockback effect. Doable, but a hassle, and not obviously requiring that the way knockback effects are coded be completely rewritten at the game engine level.

I'm not surprised negative knockback magnitude doesn't work. I AM a little surprised that knockback is so closely locked in to the location of a caster-object/pet, and there isn't a method of passing in a magnitude and direction directly. I have read before that some elements of the game exist at deeper code layers than others, so I guess knockback just happens to be one of the effects buried deeper. Kind of a shame, really, because you could create some interesting effects.