What is the point of knockback?

I don't have a problem when the whole team is with the KB program. I go with what the team is capable of, or what works best for the team.

But when a character is designed to be surrounded by enemies and has just specifically gotten the mobs in a big pack, knocking them away from that character is just inconsiderate imo.

Of course not. Not using KB doesn't really create a detrimental effect on some other styles of play.



I'm in agreement with you. I've never said anything less in this thread, or in game.

Even in the most extreme farms I've been on or lead, I've always said "please control your KB" and not "No KB", because some powersets simply don't have an option of not using KB.



You're welcome to your opinion. But the fact is if you're not using every endurance points worth of spin when you let loose with it, you're not taking advantage of what is currently either the highest or one of the highest DPA PAoE's for Brutes in the game.


Assuming equal targets, it does higher DPA than both Fire Sword Circle AND Foot Stomp.

And you don't need to be specifically built for anything other than incoming attacks to take advantage of it.

Yes at 31 as a Brute, it will be difficult to play tank for large groups.

When your Brute is L50. And is fully IOd, and capable of handling the 10 targets Spin can hit - I can't imagine any reason you wouldn't want him to be using it to it's full effect.


That's great, that you seem to enjoy specifically working at cross purposes with your team and fellow players.

Slowing the Brute's killing means slowing down a part of the team's killing power.

Nothing can stop you from purposefully playing to the detriment of your team and fellow players. So good luck to you.

Let's say I'm in my groove, beating down a Lt. or a generic boss class mob. Things are going fine and I queue up Headsplitter. It doesn't go off because some blaster knocked the mobs away from me. Let's even say the Blaster killed the mob.

That annoys me. I didn't need, want or enjoy the KB. I don't want that chaos.

That's why choice is the only answer. It doesn't matter if it is beneficial or detrimental. Some people like it and some don't. More choice is better for all.

We don't have to be in the majority and that's not the reason I don't like KB. It's not efficiency. KB sucks. It's stupid and it annoys me on its own terms. It's a rubbish way to show Super-strength or kinetic energy. The best way would be if we could pick up a car and throw it at somebody. That would be cool. KB is just an overused secondary effect.

KB would be cool if it actually worked like it does in the comic. As in, it being such a powerful punch, blast, etc. that it knocks the opponent out completely. If KB was like a finishing move that you only saw once in awhile for dramatic effect then it would be cool.

But seeing mobs flying all over in every frikken spawn is annoying. It's annoying for the same reason that even the coolest animation can get grating after awhile. It's overused. I'll give you an example.

Anyone remember FF VIII. Well, when I bought the game you couldn't skip past the summon animation. The summon animations were awesome and all, but having to do them all the time made them very, very grating. It's the same with KB for me. It's the same with anything that supposedly looks "cool". After a while it's just annoying.

Taking this back to the game, I started my Peacebringer and took the KB powers willingly. And at first they were fun. Hell, sometimes when I've feeling silly I still will fly back to Atlas and Solar Flare a bunch of Hellions away.

My Ice/Energy Blaster has Power Thrust fully slotted out for KB and I will often slap lowbie mobs around for 10-15 min for giggles. Knockback can be fun, but sometimes you just want to frikken exp. Grind out some levels or merits and not have to have the mobs flailing away all over the place for no darn reason.

That like saying, "Do you see people being kicked from teams for not annoying their teammates." Of course not. That's implied and it's no argument for which side is more reasonable or unreasonable. And I would suggest that the answer is irrelevant. KB does annoy some players, this is a fact. The ability to choose to have this secondary effect in your game is already present. You can not roll Energy Blasters or Peacebringers or Storms and you can kick or not team with those with those powersets.

I suggest a less drastic option. Give people a choice. Even if that choice requires the sacrifice of a power slot. Then folks get to have another option. They can take Energy Blast because they like the graphical look of the set and the power progression, but not have to worry about their Energy Torrent getting them kicked from teams.

Any if they don't change to KD should those players still worry about getting kicked from teams?

Like I said, the anti-KBers are the ones causing most of the todo about this and just need to get over themselves.

Of course. As well they should.

I really can't get over myself. I've tried, but you know, I get violent when I talk about leaving myself. When I went to the domestic violence shelter they said they couldn't help me. I think it's gender discrimination myself.

I like how you continue to prove my point(s) and I don't mind that you tarnish your name even further. Nice job.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Prove what point? That EvilGeko is not being reasonable about KB? How is there a need to prove a point already conceded?

And "tarnishing" my name would only matter if I ever cared what people thought of my persona on the City of Heroes boards. I don't. Hell I picked my names in petulant anger at the former dev Geko. I've hardly been a model for maturity in my time here.

Let me put this so you can understand since you seem to be trying to bait people into spats rather than actual discussions.

Your position of changing KB to KD at the choice of the player using the secondary effect is a fair suggestion. However, when you are met with opposing view points that provide reason and logic in counter you begin a petulant child act as if that's going to be effective in changing anyone's opinion.

Your whole basis for changing KB is because you feel it provides no added benefit over KD. This is factual wrong and has been stated numerous times. Your other reasons are purely selfish due to the possiblity of exp/min loss or having to move your character a few paces.

I have no issues with people suggesting ways to improve the game, but allowing players to actively change their KB to KD might cause an even greater rift in this already pointless debate.

The next threads would be about KB-ers that refuse to utilize the KD option, and a differnt but similar witch hunt would begin.

By the way, this is a great way to pass the work day.

Teaming is not a moral right. Liking or not liking knockback is not a moral position, it's a matter of personal preference. It is entirely appropriate to avoid teaming with somebody whose play style interferes with your fun. It is amazingly selfish to insist on teaming with somebody when you know your play style interferes with their fun.

If you won't fit your play style in with the rest of the team, you need to go. If your team likes knockback, you can just shut up about knockback and enjoy, or you can leave. If your team doesn't like knockback, you can keep your Gale and Energy Torrent under control, or you can leave. Either way, your leaving may or may not be voluntary. All of this is entirely appropriate. Demanding that somebody change their opinion on what they, as a matter of personal preference, enjoy doing in a video game, is frankly not appropriate or reasonable at all.

Whether you love knockback and refuse to keep it under control, or despise knockback and can't tolerate having to deal with it, either way you're restricting your teaming options based on a matter of personal preference. Neither position is one of any particular moral superiority sufficient to demand that the other change. It's not the anti-KB crowd who needs to get over themselves, it's both sides.

If the Blaster killed the target, it doesn't matter whether the attack had KB or not, the effect would be the same (unless you're a Warshade and the KB knocked the corpse out of range for one of your corpse-targeting abilities, which is a pretty far edge case). If the Blaster prevented you from using your queued Headsplitter because he killed the target, then you should be thanking him, because now you're not wasting your Headsplitter and waiting for it to recharge, but instead you have the chance to use it on another unsuspecting vict-- target.

I agree with this. This is why my decision was to respec out of AoE KB powers-- most of my teammates didn't like the use of them. I respect that my enjoyment did not trump theirs, so I kept the powers under control. This meant that I had to curtail their use to the point that I felt having other powers would provide me with more options and enjoyment.

The problem is, I really do want to use those powers (primarily Energy Torrent, Explosive Blast, and Shockwave). I both find them extremely fun, and like having the excellent AoE damage they provide. But I'm not willing to leave my friends over it-- they're awesome people.

So, I'd like an option for turning KB into KD so that I can both enjoy those powers as freely as I enjoy non-KB AoEs, and enjoy the company of my friends. It's not because I'm selfish, nor is it because I'm a crappy player, and I'd appreciate not being painted as either.

Shockwave and sonic shockwave being good examples that can be used for placement much better than M30 grenade.

The AoE Shockwave powers (Claws and Sonic Attack), Torrent (not Energy Torrent), Hand Clap and others will always knock any targets they hit. The cone targeted AoEs or PBAoES are dandy for positioning baddies on their butts

Incorrect, and I wonder if you've been actually reading my posts. I don't like KB. It's that simple. This is a recreational activity. I am not making a logical argument. I simply do not find KB fun.

I see no need to further argue whether it's effective or not. We simply don't agree on that point.

What is clear though is that some folks don't like KB, FOR WHATEVER REASON. No person is required to justify what they find fun. That's Arcana's game. She's argued for buffs to SR for five years based on math and supposed logic, but ultimately when you boil it all down, it's based on the normative foundation that a more balanced game is more fun.

The foundation of my argument is that KB is not fun. I recognize and have acknowledged that others disagree. Hell, I disagree with myself at times, being an bi-polar, insane personification of a malevolent lizard. But KB is not fun at times and I would like an option to reduce it.

Should that option cause discrimination against those who like KB, I see no cause for concern. If, as you state, most people don't care about KB, then this discrimination will not occur. If most people DO care about KB and want people to remove it, then the discrimination will occur and SHOULD occur. I'll give you an example to prove the point.

I do not allow smoking in my home. Period. The president of the United States could ask to come to my home for dinner, but if he wanted to smoke after dinner he can take his behind out of my house. Smoking is a behavior. I have no problems discriminating against people for behaviors. What I object to (and I do this for a living being an employment lawyer) is discriminating on the basis of characteristics that a person can't change or reflect the values we hold dear in our country (like religion).

KB doesn't qualify. So if there were a means to reduce KB to KD, I would not see it as problematic if there was rampant discrimination against continued use of KB.

The devs might. Hell, I suspect they do. They probably like KB. They like all that RP super-heroey stuff that wastes time and isn't efficient!

In my experience KB powers in order of annoyance:

PBAoE - "Solar Flare, how I hate thee"

TAoE - "Grrr...."

Cone - "Well, you can control it better I guess."

ST - "You're OK by me, so long as you leave my mob alone"

I definitely agree here; PBAoE knockback is the most problematic.

Targeted AoE and Cone KB powers exhibit the exact same behavior, FYI. The only difference is which critters get hit.

I quite clearly stated the mobs are on me. So no, it doesn't help anyone. The best thing that happens, the mobs still maintain mudpot agro and run back to me (assuming they don't stay at range), the worst thing, they turn around to kill a squishy instead. Knocking back mobs that are already locked onto a target that will not die from them serves no useful purpose to the team.

To me, what it boils down to is this. KB, unlike most (if not all) other secondary effects can reach a point where is it only has the potential to be a negative effect without providing any positive effects. If a team has enough buffs/debuffs/tanking/control/etc so that mitigation is not an issue at all, KB has nothing positive to offer to the team anymore.

In cases like that, many people find the KB effect to be negative or to interfere with their fun. If that happens, and it's the consensus of the team, it would be downright arrogant to insist you deserve to use KB powers anyway because your fun is more important than everybody else's combined. It's at that point people end up removed from teams because of their use of KB, or where certain sets are outright denied from teams because of their inability to control KB.

Because of the way the game is designed, it's actually pretty easy for a balanced group to hit the point where they do not need more mitigation, so KB ends up losing it's only positive aspect, and the no KB mantra becomes more common.

Edit: Actually I forgot KB can still be used to push mobs around to position them better. Sadly, this good use of KB seems to be extremely rare, and for every person that knows how to use KB well like that there seem to be 10 that turn the game into a bowling alley.

Close, but not exactly. Yes, both push mobs away from the caster (thankfully TAoE doesn't work like PBAoE's centered on the target), but TAoE then to have a larger range and it's harder for most folks to visualize which mobs are going to get knocked and where.

Whereas something like Energy Torrent projects outward from the caster in an expanding cone which is usually of shorter range and easier to visualize where the mobs will go because it makes sense that they would fly in that direction.

All the above, in my experience.

Who said I don't? I use Spin but I use it in the instances it's most effective. I *could* take advantage of Shockwave's KB to cluster foes and then use Spin...OR I can just slash whatever is close with everything else. Besides, throwing spin over and over gets old so mixing it up with ST and Shockwave fixes that.


You don't even need to be the sturdiest brute to take advantage of Fury + Spin! Just attack and you get Fury then jump into a spawn and Followup > Spin! There's nothing special about it! If a stalker can jump into a spawn like that without issue why does a Brute suddenly need a special build to do it!?

My brute can handle 10 targets now, so long as they aren't over 2 lvls above him.

and BRUTES AREN'T TANKS! If you want yours to be a tank that's you but mine wishes to strike unimpeded by the needs of the team. He's not worried how close that next spawn is or if the MM got attacked by an ambush. He'll handle what comes *his* way and mop up the rest later.

And the reason for not taking advantage of the full 10 target spin? Simple:

Because there aren't always 10 foes huddled while twiddling their thumbs waiting for you to kill them! Because when there aren't 10 foes huddled while twiddling their thumbs, I don't want to be the whining ***** that's threatening to kick people for not lining up my bags of xp like I want it! And no, KB doesn't need to be present in order to have scattered mobs.

The entire team rolls through 52s and 53s (Longbow slows us a tad bit) quite fast enough. We don't even need a Brute. But, the player likes the character. He doesn't mind the fact that he's not gaining fury form the mobs that get locked down. He's just out to punch things and have fun.

Well said.



It's most effective to be surrounded by Spin's full allotment of targets and use it as often as it's available, and mixing in your other attacks when available - unless you're taking down a single hard target


Brute's control aggro. This is a fact.

Not all Brute's are built to handle a full team's aggro, but that doesn't mean Brute's don't control aggro. Through auras and attacks.

And it might do you well to relax a bit, this is a discussion.


I'm sorry to be rude, but I'm seeing a very clear pattern here.

You seem to have overall little regard for the team in both the circumstances of knockback, as well as how you play your brute.

I'm not saying you need to play as a tanker - but simply having no regard for what's happening to other teammates or where the next spawn is, indicated by the 2 quotes above, shows a considerable lack of regard for team play.


So it looks like we have wildly different playstyles. For me, the team comes first. I go along with what works best for the team I'm on.

I'm lucky that I'm on a static team with roughly the same pool of players, and most of us appreciate similar styles of play.



I'll address your last comment, and I think we'll just need to agree to disagree and call it a day - as I doubt either of us will change the other's viewpoint.


Generally, by L30 or 35, I still team with my brute's but I often end up solo as well. In those situations, I usually solo at 0x4 or 0x6 depending on what that particular Brute can handle.

So I do usually have enough foes for either PBAoE target caps, or mitigation Auras, etc.


I also think you're exaggerating, as I've never mentioned wanting the team to 'line up bags of xp' for me, and whining or otherwise going into a tirade when they don't.


Well if that' works for your team then great.

And if you're moving fast enough, I'm sure the brute will eventually have a full fury bar.

At the same time, if the Brute can handle the alpha strikes I'm not sure why you wouldn't want him to?

A Brute has lower defenses, lower resistances and lower hit points than a tanker - and without Fury actually does less damage than a tanker.


If you could slightly modify your strategy, allowing the Brute for fast and constant fury, it would improve the entire teams damage capabilities - no tto mention let the Brute player enjoy the full benefits of his ATs Inherent ability.

Imagine if team play could nullify Domination, Scourge or Assasination for example, but modifying tactics slightly would allow the classes that use those to use them for full effect.

Wouldn't the latter circumstance be preferable to the former?