What is the point of knockback?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-12-02 18:15 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I still do this with my main (MA/Regen) in Skyway and along the bridges in IP. At least to me, the sheer entertainment value of watching baddies go flying off into oblivion is worth its weight in gold |
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
the use of knockback is to go to Skyway and go up to the huge overpasses and run along knocking all the villains off onto the ground far below
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Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
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Why does it keep getting repeated that the brute/tank/scrapper are the only ones that care about KB? You think a corruptor loves seeing his strong aoe that can hit 16 targets only hit 2 because of KB? Same for MM's, in fact, many bot MM's grab the mu immob (which has a much smaller radius than the black scorpion one) simply because of the -kb to prevent their pets from knocking things back. And the list goes on. A dislike for KB is not unique to melee, even if melee are the ones most likely to be frustrated by it.|
Originally Posted by Emberly
Seems whenever this argument comes up on the forums, two things become clear:
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The issue is, as I mentioned in my previous post, that KB can easily reach a point where it is simply not helpful. In most cases, it is surprisingly easy for a team to hit the point where they just waltz in and destroy everything with little risk of anyone dying (made even easier by IO's). At that point KB has nothing positive to offer (besides the repositioning mentioned), but still the potential of being very negative in some people's eyes. This is not the same as asking someone not to use a debuff, or asking a brute not to attack, because their abilities do not feature tradeoffs or negative aspects. More damage is always a good thing, more debuffs are always a good thing. More KB is not.
If KB had another effect, for example, making enemies take extra damage while they're getting up, it wouldn't be considered anywhere near as negative, because it would always have a positive aspect, even when the mitigation is not needed.
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Its more correct to state that I believe as an axiom, visibly unbalanced is less fun. More to the point, though, I believe that there are other considerations besides "fun" in a well-designed game. It sounds good on paper, but its far too nebulous a thought to attempt to justify every single game design or implementation decision on whether its "more fun." Its almost a nonsensical question to ask whether 0.84 or 0.94 is more fun in most cases. And in fact, even if dual blades stabbing you in your own head when you superjump turns out to be "more fun" I doubt that would affect the animator's decision making process, nor should it.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
What is clear though is that some folks don't like KB, FOR WHATEVER REASON. No person is required to justify what they find fun. That's Arcana's game. She's argued for buffs to SR for five years based on math and supposed logic, but ultimately when you boil it all down, it's based on the normative foundation that a more balanced game is more fun.
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I don't always know if a suggestion of mine will end up generating a more or less fun game overall. Sometimes, its unclear whether its even possible to judge. Usually, in the absence of knowing with certainty, I assume its best if the game at least follows the devs' own design rules with consistency, and then only attempt to argue against those rules when they very obviously create problems in overall entertainment value.
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| So if there were a means to reduce KB to KD, I would not see it as problematic if there was rampant discrimination against continued use of KB. |
Its ultimately purely a matter of subjective choice which way the devs decide to go here. They can decide that the kind of game they want is one where some intolerant players avoid playing with other players altogether, but the rest learn to deal with each other because there is no choice. Or they can decide to make a game where everyone has lots of choices besides teaming or avoidance, but those choices can allow some players to discriminate in more subtle, but probably much more common ways. I happen to fall on the side of the former rather than the latter.
I can't stop people from exercising playstyle discrimination. But I will not support any attempt to provide them with cover.
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I think that 'discrimination' is maybe not the best word choice. There is a larger issue here.| I can't stop people from exercising playstyle discrimination. But I will not support any attempt to provide them with cover. |
The fact is that teams strategize. Teaming is not (usually) about 8 people running around randomly on a map clicking buttons. It's about people trying to synergize their efforts to accomplish a common goal. Even the most disorganized teams come with basic expectations of behavior.
For example, if a player decides his 'playstyle' is charging ahead into un-aggroed groups and dragging them back to the unprepared team, he can't very well bemoan being "discriminated" against when the team objects.
Here's a sort of tongue in cheek example. A Fire, Ice, and Mind, Controller are in a mission with an Energy Blaster.
Ice: Fire, stop discriminating against my Ice Patches with your Fire Cages. It just lets enemies stand up and shoot at us. I'm here to protect the team and you're screwing it up!
Fire: Yeah well stop discriminating against the reason I'M here--to do damage. I need Containment to hurt stuff and once I kill them they won't get back up. It's not my problem that your mitigation sucks.
Mind: Hold on a second. Everyone can see who's really being discriminated against, and it's ME! I keep trying to sleep them and you two keep waking them up.
Fire: Well then confuse them instead.
Ice: Or fear them.
Mind: I said I wanted to SLEEP them, and that's what I'll do.
Energy Blaster: Don't worry you guys, I'll just keep knocking them back.
Mind, Fire, and Ice: NO!
Energy Blaster: Now, look who is REALLY being discriminated against.
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Haha, no she has never played a tanker and nor will she wait for anything! She's my wife |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Waiting...for the Brute...BLASPHEMY!!!
 Are you sure your Brute wasn't a tanker in their past life?  |
Trouble we run into with other Brutes is that they invariably seem to want the team to stick together and nobody get ahead of them; maybe those brutes were tankers before! What I was trying to say is that it appears that the people who play melee ATs and hate knockback seem to do so because they think that their playstyle and play speed is the correct one, and nobody should slow them down or outpace them. However I didn't mean to attack any individual, and I apologize for coming off as an *******.I hear what you are saying with the use of KB. It's just the availability heuristic that is making me think of melees, but as was pointed out by others, scattering mobs with AoE is a pain for lots of folks. My assault rifle blasters just love (rolleyes) seeing someone blow a nicely aligned cone apart. I probably posted in haste and in anger and I apologize for coming off as an *******. However I do maintain that I will never tell someone not to use their powers as they see fit, once again barring obviously obnoxious play.
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Originally Posted by Ocasta
The issue is, as I mentioned in my previous post, that KB can easily reach a point where it is simply not helpful.
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I agree to a point but let's not kid ourselves here: 99.5% of this game is trivial at worst. You can faceroll your way through almost every part of the game, and the parts you can't, well, everyone knows what those are. If the team splits in two during, say, some random mission on some random TF, it's not a huge deal. If the scrapper runs off and starts his own personal war with the next spawn over, well, he wouldn't have done so if he didn't think he could handle it. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I think that 'discrimination' is maybe not the best word choice. There is a larger issue here.
The fact is that teams strategize. Teaming is not (usually) about 8 people running around randomly on a map clicking buttons. It's about people trying to synergize their efforts to accomplish a common goal. Even the most disorganized teams come with basic expectations of behavior. For example, if a player decides his 'playstyle' is charging ahead into un-aggroed groups and dragging them back to the unprepared team, he can't very well bemoan being "discriminated" against when the team objects. |
I had to smile at your example. I have a WP/ice tank that has been shelved for a long time, and part of the reason he is shelved is because his ice patch power doesn't get along well with his pacted partner's immobilizes. I guess in the final analysis lots of powers and power effects don't play nicely together, but what is to be done? Do we demand others change to fit our playstyles? Or do we adapt and work from there? Sure, the fire cages is negating the knockdown from ice slick. However, the faster killing is providing a different kind of mitigation. It seems to be about ego, and how although everyone can see how their abilities are infringed upon, they are unable to see how the infringing abilities are also contributing.
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Sure you would...it's just where you would draw the line. I would be willing to bet that you would both practice and vociferously support the devs in allowing people to discriminate against those who like to swear like sailors, even going so far as to go around the filter with things like n a u g h t y words and such.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I can't stop people from exercising playstyle discrimination. But I will not support any attempt to provide them with cover.
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No, it's not so much I have little regard for the team. Of course not. If the corruptor is getting swarmed, don't think I won't run in to fight or if that MM is in the midst of an ambush, I'll certainly finish what I'm dealing with and move where the targets are.|
I'm sorry to be rude, but I'm seeing a very clear pattern here. You seem to have overall little regard for the team in both the circumstances of knockback, as well as how you play your brute. I'm not saying you need to play as a tanker - but simply having no regard for what's happening to other teammates or where the next spawn is, indicated by the 2 quotes above, shows a considerable lack of regard for team play. So it looks like we have wildly different playstyles. For me, the team comes first. I go along with what works best for the team I'm on. I'm lucky that I'm on a static team with roughly the same pool of players, and most of us appreciate similar styles of play. |
What I'm not doing is taking my playstyle, no matter how oppressive and impressive it is, and then label it as something it's not. As a melee, the sum of your narrow contributions is damage. Outside of a true Tanker, asking anything more is just a plea to appease yourself. Cries for attention and unimpeded glory for yourself is all it is. In that case, you might as well split up from the team's path or just solo. Because if you were actually thinking of the *team* and not just *you*, you'd take into consideration the advantage *all* the effects capable by your team and not just how they mesh with *yours*.
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| It's most effective to be surrounded by Spin's full allotment of targets and use it as often as it's available, and mixing in your other attacks when available - unless you're taking down a single hard target |
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| At the same time, if the Brute can handle the alpha strikes I'm not sure why you wouldn't want him to? |
Why should only the Brute get to do it? I love getting the chance to pop the alpha on my stalkers with an AS. It's a good way to nullify half the enemy's first strike and with their soften volley, let my protections handle what gets through. There's nothing more fun than popping domination and a whole spawn (or two even) suddenly can't do crap. BU+ Shield Charge on a Scrapper?
And if you think the Brutes need to take it for fury, that's the reason I mentioned my Claws/EA brute (he rarely takes alphas at all).
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I think that's a great point. I think KB's relative 'benefit' is so minor that many folks can find it objectionable, even where they wouldn't necessarily feel the same about other power conflicts (like the Ice Patch/Fire Cage example).
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Originally Posted by Emberly
I had to smile at your example. I have a WP/ice tank that has been shelved for a long time, and part of the reason he is shelved is because his ice patch power doesn't get along well with his pacted partner's immobilizes. I guess in the final analysis lots of powers and power effects don't play nicely together, but what is to be done? Do we demand others change to fit our playstyles? Or do we adapt and work from there? Sure, the fire cages is negating the knockdown from ice slick. However, the faster killing is providing a different kind of mitigation. It seems to be about ego, and how although everyone can see how their abilities are infringed upon, they are unable to see how the infringing abilities are also contributing.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I don't consider swearing to be a "playstyle" within the context of this discussion. But even if it were, the closest analogy that can be made, given the differences between chat and power effects, is that the only thing you can do in chat is opt-out: you can filter what you hear. You have no ability to stop what others say. Short of harassment violations or game-wide disruptions, you have no recourse on stopping someone from swearing. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Sure you would...it's just where you would draw the line. I would be willing to bet that you would both practice and vociferously support the devs in allowing people to discriminate against those who like to swear like sailors, even going so far as to go around the filter with things like n a u g h t y words and such.
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There is no way for a player to make themselves immune to the collateral effects of knockback without suppressing the player's ability to generate it, so there's no way for a player to "opt-out" of knockback in that sense. But that's as far as I would allow it to go, possible or not.
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I think there's a certain degree of "once bitten twice shy" to some KB haters - myself included. I have been deliberately harassed by a teammate on my Scrapper, said teammate targeting through me and using Energy Torrent and Power Push every time I got anywhere near an enemy - and the enemies at the time were KoA spamming caltrops. I had to leave the team because nobody else was having problems - mostly because they were not being deliberately harassed. Sadly, the whispers they were sending me were not visible to the rest of my team. If this sort of thing had happened to me more than just the once, I'd probably be in the "no-KB on my teams" camp. However, every other time I've had KB issues, they were readily resolved with a simple polite request, or my own realization that a team full of Storm Defenders, Energy Blasters, and /FF Controllers probably wasn't going to be a good place for my Scrapper to make any useful contribution.
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Originally Posted by Emberly
I can't disagree, now that I recognize that I was uncivil before. Other powers also become moot in later game or in certain circumstance, but too much def debuff never bothered anyone. Too much knockback can certainly trouble people. I supose the difference between my position and others is that I have never seen "too much" knockback, for some, any knockback is too much, and for most, there is a middle ground. I recognize now that just as the ones who want zero knockback are arguing from an extreme position, I am doing so as well, coming from the position of "practically never too much" knockback.
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TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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The reason I go ahead and lock the mobs down before the brute gets there is becuase we'd have to *gasp* wait a second or three (sometimes more) for him to actually grab aggro and take the alpha. Something that I seem to recall most meleers in this thread taking a hard stance against concerning KB.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
At the same time, if the Brute can handle the alpha strikes I'm not sure why you wouldn't want him to?
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So, you're saying that its ok for 7 people to wait on that one person to take all the aggro, just because he's a melee character? Where as, a single character that uses KB has to wait for a specific set of circumstances to be able to enjoy the game?
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
If you could slightly modify your strategy, allowing the Brute for fast and constant fury, it would improve the entire teams damage capabilities - no tto mention let the Brute player enjoy the full benefits of his ATs Inherent ability.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Imagine if team play could nullify Domination, Scourge or Assasination for example, but modifying tactics slightly would allow the classes that use those to use them for full effect.
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Or, you could worry less about how well you're "performance" is and enjoy beating the poggies out of the bad guys. Yes, I understand that some people enjoy the "challenge" of walking the wire edge between victory and defeat by taking on as many foes as they can conceivably handle.
To each their own.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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A Brute contributes to aggro control.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
What I'm not doing is taking my playstyle, no matter how oppressive and impressive it is, and then label it as something it's not. As a melee, the sum of your narrow contributions is damage.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Outside of a true Tanker, asking anything more is just a plea to appease yourself.
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I often play as main aggro control for my static team. I've "tanked" (for lack of a better word) the ITF, LGTF and RSF many, many times.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Cries for attention and unimpeded glory for yourself is all it is. In that case, you might as well split up from the team's path or just solo. Because if you were actually thinking of the *team* and not just *you*, you'd take into consideration the advantage *all* the effects capable by your team and not just how they mesh with *yours*.
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And just for the record the TEAMS I've been on don't want KB. And I'm usually at most, 1 of 2 melees on the team.
Since I'm usually not the leader, I never give my opinion on what ATs or powersets should or should not come, nor do I tell others how to play.
Everyone is on the same program. And rampant, useless, knockback is not part of it.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Take into consideration the time it takes to bundle those targets too. Using an AoE as often as possible is counter to efficiency. Waiting for targets to play ring around the rosie before using your attacks eats into your precious DPS too (and I would have to wait, seeing as I'd have taken out half of the spawn as they stepped up).
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Whether I solo farm +2x8, or I'm on a full team - I'm generally always fully surrounded by mobs.
There is no set up time. None.
I'm not a tanker, I don't do "set up time".
I charge in, hit an AoE and the team engages a second or two after that.
This will be my last response. I don't think any further discussion will affect either of us.
Good luck to you.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
The reason I go ahead and lock the mobs down before the brute gets there is becuase we'd have to *gasp* wait a second or three (sometimes more) for him to actually grab aggro and take the alpha. Something that I seem to recall most meleers in this thread taking a hard stance against concerning KB.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
So, you're saying that its ok for 7 people to wait on that one person to take all the aggro, just because he's a melee character? Where as, a single character that uses KB has to wait for a specific set of circumstances to be able to enjoy the game?
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I'm saying that I personally enjoy a ceaseless state of combat, and take measures to ensure of that.
You would rarely wait at all on any team where I would be on alpha, and if you got to the mobs before me I wouldn't say a word if you went and mezzed them - because I failed to get there first.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
Yes, I understand that some people enjoy the "challenge" of walking the wire edge between victory and defeat by taking on as many foes as they can conceivably handle.
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If only my aggro cap was higher...
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90%, it will be just that one person on the team complaining about the knockback.|
Originally Posted by Fusion_7
I once teamed with a guy who was the lead tank and he said for me not to use my Pets for my Controller. No Pets,..lol, my pets are my main attack powers and without them, i was just throwing darts and not doing any damage at all. Needless to say I quit that team. I think there is no sense in teaming with someone if you cannot use your powers as they were intended. My goal is to go in and open them up like trash bags and if the bodies fly like rag dolls through the air, then so be it. That's what makes this game so much fun which is the element of pure and utter chaos.
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I'll give some consideration and tactical behavior in using my powers - that is more than can be said about 99% of the people that would have complained about knockback to begin with - those 99% think they are the team and everyone else is just their to support them aka they don't think they are on a team; what they want is the only thing important.
Unfortunately, the kind of people that behave in this manner usually have the star and/or they are treated like they are the "make or break" part of the team by the other team members. (Frankly, that is rarely the case. Virtually, any combination of archetypes on a team can complete most of the games content.)
I may have already posted, but the best solution to the complaints about kb are to run your own team. You can kick people and they can't kick you. (never give up the star)
The first time they say "stop using knockback", you can say "This is your warning. If I hear that again, you won't have to worry about the knockback I'm causing".
The second time or if they complain - just kick them. They should thank you because they won't have to worry about your knockback any more.
Even better, if you are running your own team, just don't invite the archetypes that are prone to complain. I don't think I need to name names - it seems that they are already making posts to make it clear which archetypes to avoid inviting.
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Or you can just not be a tard and refrain from using KB in a manner that would cause a player to ask you to stop. Classic cases are scattering a mob with Explosive Blast or running around with Hurricane on and Gale on auto targeting through the Tanker.|
Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
The first time they say "stop using knockback", you can say "This is your warning. If I hear that again, you won't have to worry about the knockback I'm causing".
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If you're using knockback effectively, no one will ever complain because you'll be herding mobs into corners or walls. If you're doing that and someone is still complaining, explain to them what they're doing. If that doesn't work, then there's the kick button.
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Originally Posted by macskull
If you're using knockback effectively, no one will ever complain
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
KB is designed to do one thing really KEEP me alive. If the tank can't hold Aggro and the Scrapper is too busy to be bothered with his or her support knockback allows me to send anything trying to get in my face flying backwords so I have time to get off even more shots before they get close enough to hit me. Of course part of the problem is on some power sets it also happens to be attached to some of the better damaging attacks. I play Scrapper and Tanks and YES no one that is playing a melle AT likes having to chase their target half way across the room after the Blaster fires off a KB attack... gets even worse of some "DEFEAT ALL" Missions with multi layers when KB sends a minion or LT plummeting and now we have to go FIND him to get mission complete. I do my best to line up so I drive things into walls or at least don't toss them into holes but I am not going to refuse to use an attack to please 1 or 2 players and watch 4 or 5 other Blasters, Trollers and Defenders die (including me) because it's inconvenient for the scrapper to have to take 4 steps before delivering his new attack. I have chased plenty or villains across warehouses cursing the Blaster that made me but I realize the damage he or she just did may result in the whole team staying alive.
Face facts no matter what you do .. you can't please everyone. Now take that same scrapper that HATES KB so much and put him on a RITKI Invasion team while he's working on the badges for the accolade. Almost all KB attacks also damage multiple targets so I just bet if he's on yout team he'd be more than happy to see you scattering Rikti all over since he'll get partial credit for the defeat no matter who ends up taking them out and get closer to his badges sooner. Use it wisely, do your best to minimize the scattering but don't shelve some of your stronger attacks because 1 guy on an 8 man team is annoyed. If they are so lazy they can't move their character around a little to keep fighting maybe they need to solo their way to 50 once or twice.... after that I'm sure they'd be more than happy to have you do whatever you want as long as they are earning huge amounts of XP. lol
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/ignore|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I don't consider swearing to be a "playstyle" within the context of this discussion. But even if it were, the closest analogy that can be made, given the differences between chat and power effects, is that the only thing you can do in chat is opt-out: you can filter what you hear. You have no ability to stop what others say. Short of harassment violations or game-wide disruptions, you have no recourse on stopping someone from swearing.
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turning off chat channels
/kick
There are many ways to tailor the game to your liking with respect to folk's language. And in a social game, this is at least as much of a "playstyle" choice as using KB.
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| There is no way for a player to make themselves immune to the collateral effects of knockback without suppressing the player's ability to generate it, so there's no way for a player to "opt-out" of knockback in that sense. But that's as far as I would allow it to go, possible or not. |
As is, someone doesn't use this enhancer, then you know. You know they value KB highly enough that you probably don't want to play with them. Or at least you need to educate them. It gives you some options.
Right now, the problem I have is that in game, I'm a hell of a lot more polite than I am on the boards. I have never /kicked someone and I don't even leave groups until it's clear it's not going to work out. Because, to be honest with you pro-KB folks, I have a lot more sympathy for the BAD PLAYER than I do for the person who "uses KB strategically." (I don't know if I can generate enough sarcasm for that statement) Bad players may not understand the mechanics, may not have the reflexes or ability to control KB. "Good KB players" tend to have an inflated view of the use of the effect and tend to just be wasting people's time. Thankfully Justice seems to have few folks who take KB heavy sets in either event.
With a anti-KB enhancer, I'll know right away if it's best to cut my losses. I can ask a person if they know about anti-KB enhancers. If they say no, I can strike up a discussion. Perhaps show them the benefit. If the person reacts angrily or expresses love of KB, then like adults, we can just choose to go our separate ways.
The control of KB remains with the player with the power, which I thought was your concern. While I wouldn't object to a team leader flag that eliminates KB either, I think a choice that the player makes is the better one.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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One of these days, I'm going to have to run a team on test, so someone can show me why I would need for the above situation to happen in the majority of missions. Or if I did need it, why someone with repel or force bubble couldn't do this much easier, quicker and neater.
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Originally Posted by macskull
If you're using knockback effectively, no one will ever complain because you'll be herding mobs into corners or walls.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
One of these days, I'm going to have to run a team on test, so someone can show me why I would need for the above situation to happen in the majority of missions. Or if I did need it, why someone with repel or force bubble couldn't do this much easier, quicker and neater.
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That's what people who use KB strategically do. Not because you would need it but because it's the right way to do it, to make sure the targets aren't leaving and aren't standing up to fight back.
And hurricane or force bubble doesn't kill the targets while doing it, so that's why they aren't necessarily better.
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I recall an encounter where my Ill/FF controller used Repulsion Field, Force Bolt, and Air Superiority (among my other damaging attacks) to tank a Paragon Protector boss without getting hit.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
One of these days, I'm going to have to run a team on test, so someone can show me why I would need for the above situation to happen in the majority of missions. Or if I did need it, why someone with repel or force bubble couldn't do this much easier, quicker and neater.
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There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
Making your own team is fine if you are on a large server.
On a smaller server this is unlikely at best.
And Im going to dare to say, more people probably dislike knockback than like it.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
I can't help wondering if anti-KB feelings are mainly on blueside.
I've never heard anyone complain to a Bots/ MM about knockback, and when my bruiser used to do his human bowling bowl impression before handclap was 'fixed' people just laughed as ten Longbow went flying through the air.
That's one of the reasons I prefer the "8 soloists who just happen to be on the same map" feel of redside teams.
Using knockback judiciously is no harder than telling someone "face a wall and let fly". Its easy to teach and easy to learn, and its no different from a melee character positioning themselves for a cone AoE attack, except easier because you can usually be at range.
Seriously, every problem I've ever had with someone using knockback has been fixed by telling them "knock them into walls" or "Turn off hurricane". Ive never had to kick someone from a group because of it, though I've definitely kicked tanks and scrappers from teams before for complaining about having to chase a minion or two that were knocked around by an energy blaster and begging to have knockback users kicked.
To each their own. I'd rather play with someone who can be taught how to use their powerset better than with someone who's willing to ***** constantly about their XP per hour being dented. I'll take newbies over whiners any day, and it never ceases to amaze me how badly the whiners outnumber the newbies on any given day.
I think the team is the most important.
If the team decides that use of KB is the best option for that particular team, I'll go along with it. If it really hinders my playstyle, I'll bow out and look for another team. (Or run off and solo half the map like you mentioned
That's been my position throughout the thread.
It's unfortunate, but that's the situation.
That's smart use of KB, I have no issue with that.
It's when a player thinks Hurricane literally all the time or should be used whenever they feel they want to for their fun, putting their fun above other teammates and the team itself.
The bare truth of it is, there is really nothing as disruptive to other powersets or playestyles as giant AoE KB scatter.
If all of the mobs are being PBAoE KB scattered all over the place, it's frustrating to even get ahold of the target.
Just so you understand, this hinders more than melees. I dislike rampant use of PBAoE KB on any AoE focused ranged damage character I might be playing as well.
Why? Because it's disruptive to other playstyles. Blasting stuff til it's dead, or rounding it up and smashing it are not.
Waiting...for the Brute...BLASPHEMY!!!
Are you sure your Brute wasn't a tanker in their past life?
ST target KB is hardly an issue, unless I just wound up my biggest DPA ST hitter and missed because of it - which is just as obnoxious - get your own damn target!
In all seriousness, it's the AoE KB - the ultimate extreme end of KB - that causes the most frustration for entire teams.