What is the point of knockback?

That's quite true. I won't argue with you there.

The Pylon just happens to be a great way to accurately measure DPS.

That being said, let's see if we can modify it a bit.

As long as your character is the sole DPSer, you don't have to be "solo". You can have a few friends there for support, keeping you alive as long as they aren't providing buffs that would throw off the DPS calculation.

I hope that's a bit better.


That's true some people don't care.

But to say "Who cares?" means that no one cares. Where a lot of people actually do.

Otherwise KB wouldn't get a thread like this once every few weeks.


And I think that people who are playing a melee, who have never thought about calculating their attack chain, and could care less about their exact DPS and just want to have fun will not be having fun when someone KB scatters the mobs they were fighting all over the place.


And I've been focusing on melees because they take the worst of it when KB starts scattering mobs. But my ranged AoE users hate it as well.



The 8 other powers are there to help you make the most of being in the center of a fight.

KB scatter removes that fight.


That's not what I said. I'll just ask you to read that part of the discussion again.


I don't play Dual Blades, you're confusing me with 2 other posters.


That depends on the amount of Dominators on the team, and what kind of control set(s) they are playing.

As long as the mobs get locked down after the Brute takes the alpha and has himself surrounded, it's generally not a problem - because the mobs are still close enough to allow for the Brute's attacks to generate/maintain Fury.

The problem with KB scatter is that the mobs are no longer in range of melee attacks. They're no longer near each other, nor are they near the Brute, to fuel or be targets for any number of powers that require mobs to be close to the Brute/Melee.'



I don't have anything to support it, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say in the comics I've read is that when teams are fighting opponents, you'll only see enemies knocked away from other team members when things are going badly for the team or a particular member of the team.

Which to me implies a greater level of control over KB than players have, especially with regards to toning it down as needed.

So, to not Frustrate a Brute by making it so he doesn't have to give up his Mitigation and some Attack Effectiveness, A KBer must give up his Mitigation (no KB) and Attack Effectiveness (by not being allowed to use half his attacks)...

Just making sure we're clear on this.

What I find more annoying on melee AT's and kins is scatter because they go every which way. I'm looking at you assault bot!

Knockback can be incredibly fun. Just ask my fire/nrg blaster when it punches something and it goes flying. It's entertaining - especially if you're waiting on a TF to start and you just start launching things that con gray.

Note: If it cons purple, make sure you launch it and run back to the group waiting. They'll thank you later.

I'll simply disagree in regards to that first point.

Either way, I'm still not seeing the problem. Mobs on their butts are mobs that aren't doing damage. Momentary survivability goes up. In most cases, they'll be swiftly dealt with regardless. That said, sustained survivability may be affected, but that also heavily depends on what KB power, how many enemies, and other very specific conditions.

In other words, remove the fight, remove the need for defensive toggles. This is bad because?

I'm at a loss then. Either you're saying that KB affects Willpower's survivability or...that KB is annoying. I'm saying that if the average KB situation is affecting your ability to withstand damage, you're probably doing something wrong.

Otherwise, it sounds like you're far too deadset on maximizing RttC's bonus (and your Fury) even if it's not strictly necessary. But then this just loops back around to "showboating melee AT runs the show" argument that I'm very much trying not to accuse you of.

Replace all references to Dual Blades with any other set and/or any other AoE attack (or pretty much any other attack, period), then. My point still stands.

And my Dominator who can instantly stun an entire mob has to wait for the Brute to take alpha and herd the enemies because...? (I'll be fair, this is pure nitpickery, but it's an honest question.)

My question was in direct response to the idea that KB/scatter makes it harder to build Fury. In my experience, being forced to close the tiniest bit of distance while "chasing" mobs is nothing (especially with Swift) compared to getting almost zero Fury from a mob that doesn't attack at all, or even worse, when another Brute is already grabbing all the attention.

So, to get down to my point: Do Dominators also impinge on Brutes' intended playstyle? Do competing Brutes? And do you think that the 5~ seconds or less spent closing into melee distance on the occasional enemy is actually more hurtful to Fury?

And we're back to "melee ATs don't like pressing the W key". Oi. If the mobs won't bring themselves to you, bring yourself to the mob.

I suppose the bigger question is where you folks run into "scatter" in the first place. Considering that the large majority of KB is directional, and that the large majority of environments in CoX amount to "a hallway," I'm very unsure of how these horror stories about mobs being strewn to the farthest corners of the map even happen.

Except with Solar Flare is involved. Ugh. Solar Flare.

If your addressing the regen portion of RttC, then I do agree with you.

I've already conceded (lost somewhere in the pages of this thread no doubt) that KB is mitigation - but it's extreme mitigation often in unneeded amounts by any halfway decent team.

The Brute won't need his mitigation tools when the mobs are knocked into the next room or down a hallway but that still doesn't address the fact that KB scatter has now deprived the Brute of their play style, which is exactly what several proponents of KB in this thread have been saying "No KB" does to them.



I think the problem is that KB (in particular the AoEs) is an extreme form of mitigation, and when uncontrolled or used recklessly provides just as much (if not more) hindrance as it does benefit in my opinion. This is unlike KD and KU, which provide less mitigation, but in more controlled doses.


Also, I'll mention it again (not directed at you clouded) that I've played with people who used KB indiscriminately, and I added notes to those players for future grouping (or non-grouping as it were) purposes.

I've also played with people who adjusted their play style realizing KB can have detrimental effects on team play when it's recklessly used - and in those instances KB is not really noticeable.



EDIT: I'll also add, that on the whole I've suffered less KB problem redside than I have blueside. That's my subjective experience of course, but I just thought I'd toss it into the discussion. I'm not really sure what to attribute it to.

I think my entire disagreement with you can be summed up with this:

My Brute's playstyle is to kill things. Then kill more things. Until everything is dead.

Knockback powers don't grey out my attacks, so all is good.

I think you mean, "...has now deprived my brute of their playstyle..." Each person might play a tad bit different. I've seen Brutes played like Tanks, Scrappers, Stalkers and..err...Brutes. Playstyles vary according to the player, not just the AT being played.

To be honest, I enjoy a bit of chaos and a bit of surprise when I play on a team, and KB can provide that sometimes. As can the occasional Blaster/Corruptor tabbing and firing at the wrong enemy.

I understand where you are coming from Deus, but I think you are projecting a larger issue than what really exists ingame. I definitely do not know your experience, but after 5 level 50 Brutes I'm pretty confident with my assertion about KB vs. Brute.

That's cool, but it's dodging the point. Because knocking things out of auras slows down the killing, which interferes with a Brute's playstyle. But since that point is irrefutable, you ignore it.

Seeing as how we're talking about Willpower, it doesn't slow down the killing in that regard.

But if you insist, I'll make the same point again: Clearly we must remove AoE controls from Dominators. Mezzed groups don't attacks, hurting my precious Brute's Fury, which slows down the killing.

Also, only one Brute per team. And Tankerminds get shot into the sun.

I wasn't contesting the point. I was just referencing your point.

Agreed. And why? Because KB is so gosh darn annoying. Thank you for making that point for me!

Interestingly, Iron Man too doesn't cause KB as much as you think he would given that he's probably the closest to an Energy Blaster in the game.

Storm, like the set she inspires, is the Queen of KB, no argument there.

Magneto uses his power like telekinetic heroes most times. He can cause KB, but is just as likely to hold someone in the air, crush them, etc. I think he's closest to a Gravity Controller in this game. Some KB, but also KU (which is lovely).

And Assault Rifles tend to have the ninja problem. In that:

One person using an assault rifle tends to be this ultimate badass whereas a horde of folks using assault rifles lose the ability to aim and most certainly aren't knocking anyone anywhere.

So I can see some KB in the earlier instance, but less in the latter. Since the latter is much more common, I think my point stands.

You're also assuming the KB didnt kill the critters that were KBed. You're also assuming the Brute wasn't in any trouble of dying from all the aggro.

Like I said, in THEORY, KB is determental to a Brute but in actual practice it rarely makes a significant impact on performance. If there is a impact on performance it can be measured in seconds.

Correct. Who the heck needs that crap! Hell, my Plant/Psi dom doesn't even use the AoE root, sleep or hold. Only the confuse as that increases the killin'. You're talking good sense here Ian!

Sigh...a boy can dream.

You say that like it would be a bad thing?

So now you're stealing meh brutez EXPEZ?!??!

It's ironic that you mention the one AT that easily nullifies knockback redside.

It's not too hard to wait 5 seconds to let the brute pack things in nicely before lockdown. It's the doms that spam the AoE immob before everything is properly aggroed that die very quickly on teams. The loss in fury is negligable. The greater loss is the loss of AoE damage, whether it be fulcrum shift, lightning rod, footstomp, fireball, sleet - you name it.

The player that carelessly spams knockback does a team a disservice. The player that carefully uses knockback does a team a great service. There's a big difference. Most NRG blasters will tell players, that if I knock something back, I'm killing it. To which, the brute will happily let them and move on to something else to smash. But, I'm not going to run all over the place and individually taunt because my AoE taunt doesn't cover the radius of the entire map!

If you are on my team and feel the need to knockback everything I just herded, you can kill them yourself, because I will not chase them down individually on my Elec/Elec. Of course, I'll adapt and open up with my AoE immob and take you right out of the picture.

How else do you suggest I melt down poorly controlled robot MM pets?

It can be measure in annoyance. Which has always been my point. Not that you lose a few seconds.

I don't like having crap KB. I'll cop to what Ian derisively states. I don't want to have to hit W just because of some silly secondary effect I don't need. KB is annoying. It what I hate about my Peacebringer the most. I despise the secondary effect.

It's not a question of effectiveness.

I'M LAZY. There, I'll cop to it.

I'M AN EVIL MIN-MAXER WHO DOESN'T WANT MY KILLING SLOWED BY EVEN .01 OF A SECOND. There I'll cop to that too.

I'll cop to any silly put down you all want to throw at me about KB. I just don't like that secondary effect. I feel guilty playing my only character with excessive KB (the aforementioned PB). I leave teams with Stormies.

I just want a means to excise that terrible secondary effect from my game. I don't have any quarrel with folks who like to knock things all over the place. I won't be offended if you don't want to play with me. I play the following characters on Justice so you can be sure never to group with me:

Kyll, Little Frosty, Cute but Psycho, Solar Paladin, Fallen Princess, Shadow Nymph, Foxy Widow, Jungle Spider, Dao Knight, Radical Heat, Photon Flash (the PB), Warlord of Shadow, Floral Rage, Searing Solace, Biomecha (I hate when my robots KB too! Bastids), Poison-Pin, Flamewasp.

There. Please make a note. EvilGeko is an bad person who hates KB for completely selfish and illogical reasons.

But I still will argue for a choice to reduce this secondary effect to KD, because it would make me enjoy certain characters more and would lead to the just discrimination against those who knock mobs all over the place. It would lead to a cleansing where those who love KB are shunned. It would be glorious.


OK, I'm sorta kidding with that rant, but I still don't like KB.

No, I'm increasing the amount of time you get to have fun earning exp. Get it right!

I don't appreciate you impinging on my Dominator's playstyle.

And since I was talking about hard controls anyway...an entire stunned mob that isn't fighting back is going to cut into your Fury quite significantly.

Not when you take attacks that animate in under 1.5 seconds. Incoming damage just lets me get fury faster. Stun all you want. Just let me swing at things. You can even open up with flash/cages if you want. I can maintain fury fine without being attacked.

My biggest complaint has been when I'm on a kin and I go to fulcrum and that's the moment someone drops bonfire. Lookie! MOAR DMG...aww.

I think I've used FULC as a four-letter word at times on teams.

KB used well is great. I'm not anti-knockback. I'm anti-stupid.

That was pretty funny. I bet you feel better too.

I generally don't even have trouble on Brutes with longer animation times. But it also heavily depends on several other factors. It's a lot harder to do at earlier levels before you get all of your attacks, for instance.

(Why yes, I was teasing this line of argument out just to prove the opposite. Aint I a sneaky one.)

Cheers, mate!

Well said. The only ATs that can even afford to complain about KB redside are Corrs (Kins mainly and Dark to a lesser extent) and Stalkers. Pretty much everyone else can nullify KB if they chose to. With the lack of Electrifying Fences for most blueside ATs, I do feel for their inability to deal with KB.

Rather than removing or changing KB at all, it might just be more fun all around to give access to Electrifying Fences to more ATs instead?

I think I forgot there was a game before level 50 about a year ago when my brutes dinged 50.

SMASH SMASH SMASH. Wait, Training Origin? What are those again?

SMASH SMASH SMASH KoB whee. SMASH SMASH footstomp.
logout. LIGHTNING ROD SHIELD CHARGE FIREBALL.

logout.

fire/nrg blaster:

BURN BURN BURN energy punch, hehe you went flying. BURN BURN BURN FIREBALL! INFERNOOOOO. [flame cages] energy punch. aww.

That's pretty much my entire position on the game, as well as KB. If I can burn it, or smash it, I'm happy. If I can't, I'm unhappy.

Yes, this is true, but ive never seen a case where only one person on a team is annoyed when mobs are being knockbacked.

And yes if its 3 people who say stop knocking back to 1 person who is knocking back then the 1 person knockbacking must stop or get booted.