What is the point of knockback?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-12-02 18:15 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
What is the point of knockback? the original poster asks.
KB is a great tool in the hands of someone who uses it well. It is great form a damage mitigation basically from a game mechanics view. KB looks cool graphically, and unfortunately tends to attract players newer to the game. In fact, players that tend to enjoy comics and superhero culture would likely be attracted to this more than those that do not. KB is a part of comic books, cartoons, superhero, villian culture. Think of the big tank like marketed heroes. Superman has been knockedback. The Hulk (perhaps a brute) has been knockedback. The vast majority of heroes and villians have been knocked back.
To be honest, I think KB protection may be a bit overpowered. Now as I put on my flameproof jacket and hit elude to dodge the rotten fruit coming my way, lets be honest. In the numina TF, the last mish (SPOILER ALERT if new to game), features the monster Jurassik wielding essentially a giant club made of a tree trunk with a bus attached to the end. Hmmmm, to me, it seems reasonable, that Jurassik should actually have a chance to knock you back even if you have Integration and KB IO's in your build. Why? Well, personally, to those that have read comics, I do not feel an explanation is needed. I think other heroes or villains should have a chance for KB either way. To be honest, Jurassik should knock some toons through the wall into another room, and that would be completely awesome if that kind of KB could happen from a FUN point of view.
Sorry to turn the thread around on ya, but questioning the point of KB is a fair question, but one could easily argue with just as much logic, what is the point of knockback protection? Sorry to inform a few folks, the game was not actually designed for farming.
All that being said, I am not a huge fan of KB when used poorly, and KB based sets really are best left untouched until people get experience with the game or by someone who exclusively solos. If you find yourself teaming with somebody with KB, try talking to them politely, and giving them direction on how to use KB to the teams advantage.
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This isnt 100% true|
Originally Posted by brophog02
Only the idiots who think those are the "knockback sets", with little knowledge of how much the effect is built into the game engine and therefore mostly unavoidable.
Same folks who aren't smart enough to use the search button. Why would I listen to an idiot? We don't need this same argument several times a month just because folks are too lazy to use the tools they are given, both in game and out of game. Lazy and stupid people should not ever be followed by those capable enough to realize that they are indeed stupid and lazy. The idea that you don't have problems by getting rid of knockback is just stupid. Every set you take will generate the possibility of problems because players are stupid, lazy, and generally uncooperative with their fellow man. Everyone is too damn greedy to work together. This game's current problems are all products of lazy, stupid, and greedy players. |
You are making it out like every set is equally difficult to play. This is clearly not the case.
And I never said those sets were impossible to play well, just that the 1 in 10 chance that it will be played well as compared to the about 1 in 2 chance "normal" powersets will be played well mean its easier to just leave them off the team.
And my point is, if you make a fire blaster you will never ever hear the stop knocking mobs back argument, because you have no knockback, if you make an AR blaster you might occasionally hear it and might want to stop using m30, if you make an energy blaster you are very likely to hear it and might get kicked or wind up not being able to use most if your primary for fear of being booted.
This is why sets with little to no knockback are inherently superior, they never have the problem in the first place.
Knockback is a penalty, not an advantage, this is why the devs went nuts when people found they prevent knockback on bonfire while fighting +4 mobs.
This would mean that Energy would have to be that much superior to other blaster sets to be worth that penalty, it isnt.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
THe real pervisity of this is, the one time where knockback would be an incredible advantage against Av's, the Av's have way to much protection for it to ever work almost all the time.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
I have serious problems with some sets because they lack knockback; I always end up frustratedly having to slot for it so that I can support the scrappers and blasters in the team. Quit trying to remove anything that needs something more than a brain stem.
A no attack "Group-Friendly" Defender is like a "Team Friendly" basketball player who won't dribble, run, or shoot, under any circumstances. "I'm a PASSER."
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Played poorly Knockback is a penalty, that is true. However, when played well it is an advantage. An enemy that is knocked back does not attack for several seconds (longer if its a melee enemy), a benefit normally only conferred by stuns and holds. Energy blasters get this advantage on every single attack including their AoEs. Sure Fire is better for pure damage, but Fire is far and away the best damage set. Energy is probably the second best mitigation primary for blasters (after Ice).
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
This isnt 100% true
You are making it out like every set is equally difficult to play. This is clearly not the case. And I never said those sets were impossible to play well, just that the 1 in 10 chance that it will be played well as compared to the about 1 in 2 chance "normal" powersets will be played well mean its easier to just leave them off the team. And my point is, if you make a fire blaster you will never ever hear the stop knocking mobs back argument, because you have no knockback, if you make an AR blaster you might occasionally hear it and might want to stop using m30, if you make an energy blaster you are very likely to hear it and might get kicked or wind up not being able to use most if your primary for fear of being booted. This is why sets with little to no knockback are inherently superior, they never have the problem in the first place. Knockback is a penalty, not an advantage, this is why the devs went nuts when people found they prevent knockback on bonfire while fighting +4 mobs. This would mean that Energy would have to be that much superior to other blaster sets to be worth that penalty, it isnt. |
Its kinda a problem then that ice is in general more damaging than energy.
Yes Energy by the numbers should outdamage ice, but because of the way it works, Ice is more versatile, has more synergy in itself and with other sets.
Ice can stack its aoe's on top of each other, not only not bouncing the mobs around but slowing them down or even making them slip making it easier for anyone else to take advantage of the situation.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
Maybe, but the Blaster primaries are not really balanced against each other anyway. Arcanaville posted about it somewhere (in this thread or one like it) but basically they have their base damage balanced according to a formula and then an appropriate secondary effect tacked on. There is no real effort by the devs to balance the secondary effects against each other so is it really surprising that some are more useful than others?
in the end it comes down to selecting a powerset that suits your playstyle and running with it. If you want pure damage select Fire or Archery, if you want safety take Ice, if you want an endurance light build that leaves your enemies exhausted Electricity is your best bet etc. Energy is the blast set for people who want to toss their enemies around laughing the entire time.
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Those aren't attack chains. Those are attack strings. And everybody who doesn't click one attack and stand around for 5min before pushing another one does this. I'm more or less talking about players posting a Mids' build and then asking for advice and are like "And what should my attack chain be? Because I was thinking blahblahbla".|
Originally Posted by Katie V
My scrappers, for one. Certain powers combine nicely when used in a certain order, and sticking to a standard attack chain means I never need to watch the tray to see what powers are up.
1) MA/Regen: Jump kick (someone heading through the roof isn't going to be hitting me) -> storm kick (with jump kick slotted for knockback, this connects just as the target is coming back down. Very satisifying.) -> thunder kick (just in case one of the previous missed) -> crane kick (a nice finisher for minions -- send 'em flying) 2) Claws/SR: Followup (damage and to-hit buffs if it connects) -> focus (knockdown) -> slash (defense debuff) -> strike (filler while followup recharges). Between the damage buffs, the to-hit buffs, and the defense debuffs, this absolutely shreds tougher targets. One of these days, my forcefield defender should get together a knockback-heavy team and run safeguard missions for the sole purpose of watching the bodies fly. |
I mean, really? You can't just shoot/hit with whatever powers? Yeah, seamless attack chain blahblahblah *gets slammed by ice/psy attack with a wideareawebgrenade*. Now do you just fall apart because your pre-made button sequence is brokeded? I just don't get it...
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Switch to the next lowest attack chain? Use other attacks as fillers? Accept a minor delay in the chain? Just because I build for an attack chain doesn't mean I do nothing but press buttons in that exact sequence.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Those aren't attack chains. Those are attack strings. And everybody who doesn't click one attack and stand around for 5min before pushing another one does this. I'm more or less talking about players posting a Mids' build and then asking for advice and are like "And what should my attack chain be? Because I was thinking blahblahbla".
I mean, really? You can't just shoot/hit with whatever powers? Yeah, seamless attack chain blahblahblah *gets slammed by ice/psy attack with a wideareawebgrenade*. Now do you just fall apart because your pre-made button sequence is brokeded? I just don't get it... |
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My DB scrapper does this because hitting 'it' with whatever powers is a lot worse than using an actual attack chain that incorporates a combo. Such as Blinding Feint -> Attack Vitals combo -> Repeat. And I actually have an attack (Nimble Slice) that I only use as filler when slowed. Or to pull of a Sweep combo, but that's not really relevant.| I mean, really? You can't just shoot/hit with whatever powers? Yeah, seamless attack chain blahblahblah *gets slammed by ice/psy attack with a wideareawebgrenade*. Now do you just fall apart because your pre-made button sequence is brokeded? I just don't get it... |
That said, attack chains are generally more useful when fighting a target that won't go down in a couple of hits. My Ninja Blade Stalker uses the "hit whatever attack has recharged" tactic against 90% of enemies, only bothering to break out a proper attack chain against bosses and higher.
If you want to truly understand frustration caused by knockback, play a DB/WP Brute.
Willpower needs to be in the middle of a bunch of foes for it's main mitigation to function.
Brutes require lots of attacking and getting attacked to keep their fury up.
Dual Blades gets utterly screwed if they're partway through a combo and there's no nearby enemies to hit, as the combo will often break before they get to another foe. Plus, its Sweep combo benefits tremendously from being surrounded, and causes knockdown. In fact, Dual Blades is often just as good at keeping enemies off their feet as the blaster is, and more consistently too.
Basically, the only time that knockback is any benefit to this build is when it's pushing them closer to the Brute. Otherwise, it's either a huge hinderance, or is providing a benefit that the Brute is simply better at providing themselves.
I say this as an EB using Defender, who also has a DB/WP Brute. Nearly incompatible playstyles.
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Of course, if the enemies are on their backs, you don't need mitigation. If they've been in melee with you, you've been taunting them and they're in Melee mode, so they'll come running back into melee once they stand up.
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Originally Posted by Kriticism
Willpower needs to be in the middle of a bunch of foes for it's main mitigation to function.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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And in the meantime, the Fury bar is dropping, and my combo just broke, which means that the big DPS from Attack Vitals won't happen, or the extra damage and knockdown from Sweep won't occur. |
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Of course, if the enemies are on their backs, you don't need mitigation. If they've been in melee with you, you've been taunting them and they're in Melee mode, so they'll come running back into melee once they stand up.
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You can play this build with Knockback users on the team, but it'll be frustrating as heck, and you'll be functioning at maybe 60-70% normal effectiveness unless the KB user is VERY careful.
This is an extreme case, though. Most melee builds aren't as utterly dependent on being in the midst of tons of foes as this one is.
EDIT: Just to clarify, I often DO wind-up being in KB using teams with this character (bots are really popular among masterminds, for one). Generally, this results in me being forced to play extremely aggressively. The moment enemies start being knocked away, I superjump into the next pack of mobs, while the KB users finish off the last batch. They benefit from the mitigation of their knockback, and I'm happily surrounded. They catch up, and I move on. We go through missions like a buzzsaw. However, staying together just results in grief.
Well, my previous post specifically addressed "Willpower" and ignored your complaints about Brutes and Dual Blades. But if you want to get down to it...
- Brutes gain fury from attacking as well as being attacked. If things aren't hitting you, hit them to keep your Fury going
- You don't need 100% Fury to be awesome. I totally understand the chase after the Fury bar (I've been there), but you don't need it. Fury boils away fast, but it comes back just as quickly.
- It is far more likely that your combo will break due to hitting the wrong power than because an enemy was KBed out of range. Hell, I've kept a combo going between spawns on numerous occasions.
- Attack Vitals only really provides "big DPS" against single hard targets: in orther words, Elite Bosses, Archvillains, Monsters, and Giant Monsters. Targets that aren't going to be KBed anyway.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I was addressing the build as a whole. It's the combination of Brute+WP+DB that makes it so frustrating when mobs get tossed away from you.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Well, my previous post specifically addressed "Willpower" and ignored your complaints about Brutes and Dual Blades.
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But if you want to get down to it... - Brutes gain fury from attacking as well as being attacked. If things aren't hitting you, hit them to keep your Fury going |
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| - You don't need 100% Fury to be awesome. I totally understand the chase after the Fury bar (I've been there), but you don't need it. Fury boils away fast, but it comes back just as quickly. |
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| - It is far more likely that your combo will break due to hitting the wrong power than because an enemy was KBed out of range. Hell, I've kept a combo going between spawns on numerous occasions. |
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| - Attack Vitals only really provides "big DPS" against single hard targets: in orther words, Elite Bosses, Archvillains, Monsters, and Giant Monsters. Targets that aren't going to be KBed anyway. |
As I said, I'm a knockback user myself with my Defender. I just recognize that my Brute is, in pretty much every way, antithetical to knockback. The fact that knockdown is among his own techniques means that he's cutting into the knockback user's contribution too, since they don't stack that well.
It's an edge case, as I said. While Knockback isn't the boogyman that some people make it out to be, there are some builds that it IS fairly hard on.
Then again, it's hardly the only conflict we see among builds, just one of the more common. Just ask the Ice blaster who's knockdown field isn't working because the Earth controller just Stone-Caged everything.
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Originally Posted by Kriticism
You can play this build with Knockback users on the team, but it'll be frustrating as heck, and you'll be functioning at maybe 60-70% normal effectiveness unless the KB user is VERY careful.
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And your role in making sure it all works is? This is a two way street, and that is often forgotten by the folks that don't dig the knockback. The biggest problem melee users have with knockback is they don't often work with it. Most maps have some form of structure. Go to that structure, rather than just engaging mobs in the middle of the room....particularly if you have any means of a taunt aura to bring them with you. Then everyone is happy.
I play all sorts of toons, and I don't have these problems. Play smart. Communicate with your fellow players. Have fun. It's as simple as that.
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Enemies being out of range of RttC are not providing regen. This is how Willpower survives.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Of course, if the enemies are on their backs, you don't need mitigation.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
If they've been in melee with you, you've been taunting them and they're in Melee mode, so they'll come running back into melee once they stand up.
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Most brutes don't take taunt. And RttC has the weakest taunt of all taunt auras falling in well under 2s (1.5 offhand I think).
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Well, my previous post specifically addressed "Willpower" and ignored your complaints about Brutes and Dual Blades. But if you want to get down to it...
- Brutes gain fury from attacking as well as being attacked. If things aren't hitting you, hit them to keep your Fury going |
Running around trying to hit mobs that have been scattered all over the place makes this both frustrating and pointless. You won't maintain fury in this situation.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
- You don't need 100% Fury to be awesome. I totally understand the chase after the Fury bar (I've been there), but you don't need it. Fury boils away fast, but it comes back just as quickly.
- It is far more likely that your combo will break due to hitting the wrong power than because an enemy was KBed out of range. Hell, I've kept a combo going between spawns on numerous occasions. - Attack Vitals only really provides "big DPS" against single hard targets: in orther words, Elite Bosses, Archvillains, Monsters, and Giant Monsters. Targets that aren't going to be KBed anyway. |
You're not leaving the Brute/Melee much option to play their character as intended here, and it sounds more like the Brute/Melee should have to rework their playstyle to one that is both ineffective and frustrating to accomodate KB users.
Not needing mitigation because the mobs are scattered isn't really something a brute is happy about.
Should the Brute really just accomodate the KB user, ignoring their Fury bar (and thus damage capability) , their keystone power in their secondary, their aggro control abilities and any PBAoEs they have?
That sounds about as unfun as any activity can be in this game.
I don't often use the add/edit note feature in the game, but I've made exceptions here and there for players that obviously had no regard for their teams and instead just wanted to throw mobs all over the room.
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Originally Posted by Leo G
Those aren't attack chains. Those are attack strings. And everybody who doesn't click one attack and stand around for 5min before pushing another one does this. I'm more or less talking about players posting a Mids' build and then asking for advice and are like "And what should my attack chain be? Because I was thinking blahblahbla".
I mean, really? You can't just shoot/hit with whatever powers? |
No, not if you want to maximize your damage.
And not everyone does that. A lot of people just button mash like you posted I imagine.
A structured attack chain means you have worked out the recharge needed, adjusted the cast times to reflect the animations and chosen the most optimal sequence of attacks to form a seamless chain to inflict maximum damage.
If you really think there is no difference between the two, build a scrapper and solo a pylon twice, each time employing a different method.
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Was with you till you got to here. First, soloing a plyon is NOT a basis for performance for anything. At one time there were buffs on test for claws that got ROLLED back by the devs precisely because it allowed that set to solo a plyon too easily. THAT again is NOT the base level of play expected.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
No, not if you want to maximize your damage. And not everyone does that. A lot of people just button mash like you posted I imagine. A structured attack chain means you have worked out the recharge needed, adjusted the cast times to reflect the animations and chosen the most optimal sequence of attacks to form a seamless chain to inflict maximum damage. If you really think there is no difference between the two, build a scrapper and solo a pylon twice, each time employing a different method. |
Secondly, alot of folks couldn't care less about dps. Some just play, to play and min/maxing is the last of their concerns. You can efficiently mow down stuff without button mashing also. In fact for DB you can often SACRIFICE you dps for landing efficient combos--efficient as in knocking stuff down directly in front or beneath you. I do it ALL THE TIME on my dps/regen scrapper. In fact since /regen is so susceptible to burst damage, I use DB's consistent and easy to attain knock DOWN/UP as a mitigation tool. For WP this is a bonus as the moronic AI keeps them next to you. Ofcourse this may not always be the most efficient DPS method. But who cares?
This was the only thing about your post I had to comment on. Everything else I agree with to a point.
EDIT: Also agreed that I an see how DB/WP might be annoying on a brute. Knowing how WP works is one reason my first real DB toon was /regen as a secondary and wasn't a brute. As others have said I could deal with it just from experience with other sets, but sometimes you don't want to. Sometimes you just want to go in and dice stuff up.
Good posts and discussion.EDIT 2: Added more explanation and fixed my mistake on the acronym or Dual Blades.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I'm not sure how much you really mean this, but honestly I've grown tired of this argument. Willpower has 8 other powers, and while the rez isn't doing you any favors while you're still alive, the rest certainly are.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Enemies being out of range of RttC are not providing regen. This is how Willpower survives.
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If a few enemies being knocked out of RttC is all it takes to faceplant you, apparently nigh-instantly, then it sounds like you're fighting enemies which are too difficult for you (and your team) to handle.
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| Most brutes don't take taunt. And RttC has the weakest taunt of all taunt auras falling in well under 2s (1.5 offhand I think). |
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We're back to the earlier points. Running around trying to hit mobs that have been scattered all over the place makes this both frustrating and pointless. You won't maintain fury in this situation. You're not leaving the Brute/Melee much option to play their character as intended here, and it sounds more like the Brute/Melee should have to rework their playstyle to one that is both ineffective and frustrating to accomodate KB users. Not needing mitigation because the mobs are scattered isn't really something a brute is happy about. Should the Brute really just accomodate the KB user, ignoring their Fury bar (and thus damage capability) , their keystone power in their secondary, their aggro control abilities and any PBAoEs they have? That sounds about as unfun as any activity can be in this game. |
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I suppose that you mean the Attack Vitals and Sweep combos? Those are actually DB's best DPS options for ST and AoE respectively, if you're popping BF in between combos. Of all the powersets I've played, DB is probably the one that gets the greatest benefit from having an attack chain.| You can efficiently mow down stuff without button mashing also. In fact for DB you can often SACRIFICE you dps for landing efficient combos--efficient as in knocking stuff down directly in front or beneath you. |
While it's true that you can and will mow stuff down with button mashing, it's also true that you'll mow stuff down faster with optimized attack chains. Most of the time, I think the difference is not really noticeable, but some people still like knowing that they are getting the most damage possible out of their toon. You gotta understand that for some of us, that is fun.
And of course, there's situations where it really does matter. Typically, when fighting bosses or higher or trying to take out multi-man spawns solo.
Whatever the **** you're doing solo isn't about to bother an energy blaster on a team.
Based on this thread, the point of Knockback is to allow players to create threads where self-importance and entitlement run rampant on both sides of the debate.
My opinion:
KB is fun, KB is super-heroy and KB is effective mitigation for the user. KB can be an annoyance to anyone using melee type powers or mitigation shields that require critters in range. Having been on both sides of the coin I can say that I would never ask or want this mechanic changed to suit my or anyone elses selfish desires.
I freaking love knockback when it's on my team or when I am doing it. It's totally superheroic and makes for amazing chaotic fights that are fun as hell. I've played a lot of melee and honestly it takes some really obnoxious use of knockback before I start even noticing it affecting me. Stuff like some bubbler/kin /following me with Repel or Force Bubble on, that kind of stuff. I am a big boy so if the energy blaster knocks something or some things off me I hit escape to untarget then start mashing them attack keys again, aquiring a new target and maintaining the beatdown. If the blaster dies from getting something's attention, well, your aggro, your problem. I'm happy to do less than MAXIMUM DPS TURBO EFFICIENCY PYLON SOLO damage if it means that someone else can have a good time.
The other day I ran a few SF teams with two people who came along as a pair. One of them started whining in teamchat every time I invited a mastermind, complaining that they "had to get a ranged character cause the MM was going to knock everything back" and switching characters. After the first time, I started looking for robot masterminds to invite, because man if you get that much out of feeling sorry for yourself I am not going to begrudge you the opportunity to do so. Funny thing the two brutes who didn't change characters had zero issues and had a great time.
I had a sort of revelation regarding knockback on my claws/inv scrapper. I didn't take Shockwave because enemies flying away from me aren't feeding Invincibility. It was an amazing moment when I realized that enemies flying away from me don't need to feed Invincibility because they can't do a damn thing to me anyway! Plus anything that I knock away comes right back so I don't even need to chase it that often.
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What I said was: "immunity to knockback is far rarer in comic books than in the game."|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
To be fair in the most recent New Mutants, Sunspot and Colossus were fighting some undead mutant that claimed to be immovable once his feet were planted (KB immunity Arcana?).
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Immunity from knockback in comic books generally falls into three categories:
a. some specific power that grants general immobility or rooting to the ground
b. a level of power so high that impact generally has no effect
c. A massive size differential
In CoH, immunity from knockback is granted to:
a. Nearly all melee
b. Anyone that takes acrobatics
c. Anyone buffed with one of the KB protection powers
I'd say its objective fact that KB protection is far more common in CoH than in the comic book genre overall.
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I see a lot of pushing, shoving, tackling in comics. I think that's all getting conflated with KB. I very rarely see: Assault Rifles cause AoE KB like they do in the game; Concussive Blasts (e.g. Cyclops) cause KB as much as Energy Blast does; Wolverine or Sabertooth causing KB with their claws as Shockwave does. |
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This has been going on years. Just last month I posted in a thread at least one thread per month on just the suggestions forum that highlighted the same or very similar idea. In fact, just yesterday we got this month's quota filled.
Unlike you, I actually check these things before I post. Why bother with this post of yours if you won't do the same? You come just to prove the point for me? I'd say thanks, but that would be rewarding you for the behavior one hopes to see corrected.