What is the point of knockback?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-12-02 18:15 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I have toons with KB and toons without ... nuff said bout that .. im not predjudiced but alot people here are vs melee toons ...
I have been on my tank n had people ask me to team n help out only to find a couple players kb happy .. cause its cool lookin using gale or energy attacks even warshades blasting all over the place.
They ask for help, i agree, they want me to keep agro but scatter foes and agro groups over said agro caps lol Ill stay n help as i agrred to but wont hang too much longer. it can be frustrating, (NO Not Lazy!) the fact some want toss insults 1st means they play selfishly imo..
When playing a toon with KB i try to be reasonable with my attacks n use best judgement when on my melee toons i try to be understanding that they want to have fun and play a game.
Kins as already mentioned well sux to have ur heals miss..
KB can be a very frustrating power for melee toons and ive had days where i dont want to put up with it for too long.. lets face it alot people wont even wait for ur trollers to pin em down .. they blast happy lol.
Play a tank (a good tank) and try to lead and keep ur team alive with blast happy players lol it can get old lol.
You want to play your toon n kb friendly if poosible if you attitude is my fun is all that matters .. and if ur ranged or melee i really dont care .. if u r all that matters .. please dont ask for my help and add me to ignore i dont want to play with you
LOL
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For a sololing Nrg Blaster or PB, I'd argue with that. Melee foes having to come back to hit you after being KBd on their rumps aren't attacking you while doing so. Not a large amount of time, certainly, but with large enough mobs, every attack (or lack of) counts.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
No. KB is NEVER more useful than KD or KU. Period.
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In any case, KB is cool and it should be something that is *desired*, even on teams. That it's not welcome (even loathed a bit) is a big problem and the Devs should do something about it. Heck, make it so that any KBd foe automatically take an extra Smashing Damage (say, around 100 pts at lvl 50). Something! Something to emulate that in a 'Real Fight', having foes go flying away from you is a 'Good Thing'.
Knockback also triggers ragdoll, with the joys of hanging mobs onto fences, bluewalls, having them roll down slopes and the like.
Knockdown doesn't do this.
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You teamed with a bad player. Just ignore people like that.
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Originally Posted by marc100
I am rolling my first energy/energy blaster and its pretty fun. Im at lvl 11 with her now.
I then teamed up with a lvl 50 scrapper to help him and I start firing. Immediately he says "No KB". So I looked at my powers and they ALL caused knockback lol. I couldnt help him more than throwing my apprentice charm and using sands of mu. I felt pretty useless. So while the blaster is fun to play, I dont want to play her anymore because I dont want to hear "no KB" for the next 39 levels and people not wanting to team with me because of knockback |
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Not necessarily, no. What I'm trying to say is that when the sets were first created, they were created using a formula to set the damage per attack. And then, secondary effects were sprinkled around based on conceptual desires. These were only moderated, not balanced. There was (and is) no rule that even says a set *must* have a foe secondary effect. Believe me: if there was I would have used it long ago to appeal the fact that MA lacks it. They tended not to want to make such sets, but Martial Arts came very close at the start. Alternatively, Energy Blast could have had a hodge-podge of effects like Assault Rifle. And the devs continued that practice after launch: witness Archery, which has at best a +10% accuracy bonus above the standard weapon bonus (which itself is an unbalanced "give it out just because" bonus) and very little foe secondary effects in its attacks.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Again we are saying the same thing. It's a side line to the larger point, but the difference between saying "Fire has no secondary effect, so it does more damage" and "Fire's secondary effect is more damage" is a matter of syntax. The larger point stands--if Energy Blast did not have Knockback as a secondary effect, it would have a different secondary effect or do more damage.
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There was *no rule* that said that secondary effects must be balanced numerically, there wasn't even a rule that said all attack sets must have foe secondary effects, and in fact to the best of my knowledge from launch to today there has never been an attempt to balance secondary effects across all attack sets. Basically, if the original designers didn't think Knockback was the cool effect energy blast should have, today we'd very likely be Archery with energy damage and no accuracy bonus.
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Not really: that's an exaggeration. That can only happen in situations where the spawn density is so high this becomes a problem regardless of initial spawn distribution and regardless of knockback.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Which would then have spawns overlapping each other on some maps, leaving them clumped together anyway in large teams. So maybe I don't get the whole 16, but I get 8 of this spawn and 3-4 of the other.
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| That's assuming anyone still wanted to play the game if they mobs were running all over the place. As I stated in another KB post, scatter is annoying. KB is annoying. I don't care if it's good mitigation (it's not), it's a PITA. |
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1. My first thought was your not fighting tough/high enough baddies, then I rememberer you're talking about KB.
2. IMO even as a near obligate melee toon player, KD realistically, should only be used as a "slipping" animation on ice or oil, etc. Hit by force = reaction.
3. Diverisity in secondary effects is good. For blasters KB is especially good as it maximizes foe distance. IMO, if a blaster is doing melee damage (dont they get a 1.0 modifier for melee damage?(Yes, I know they have big hitting melee powers - thats also odd), something went wrong.
4. Wish: Give singulairity or some power in grav Knock IN (knocks peeps together to an epicenter)
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This will keep the in a spot if they're already there (up to a point; with Fear or Sleep they'll run as soon as you hit them). You've still failed to address my question: How do you plan on moving targets closer together with any of those mezzes?
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Walk up to a spawn. Fear, Immobilize, Hold or Sleep them. Kill them. Rinse and repeat.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
We should start a suggestions thread on how to get rid of knockback.
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Play your blaster. Have your fun!|
Originally Posted by marc100
I am rolling my first energy/energy blaster and its pretty fun. Im at lvl 11 with her now.
I then teamed up with a lvl 50 scrapper to help him and I start firing. Immediately he says "No KB". So I looked at my powers and they ALL caused knockback lol. I couldnt help him more than throwing my apprentice charm and using sands of mu. I felt pretty useless. So while the blaster is fun to play, I dont want to play her anymore because I dont want to hear "no KB" for the next 39 levels and people not wanting to team with me because of knockback |
KB is damage mitigation, and often darn good, giggling times.
And that there was a bad, lazy scrapper.
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Someone has to balance the vehemence with which people bash KB too.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Alright, that's fair. Point taken. I can't argue with that.
But that's pretty darn far from the vehemence with which people defend KB. |
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I'll own up to that gladly. That's the game that we play. It's fun. I spend hours planning out a build, working the numbers, working the market to get the build. Then I want to take that build and mow down mobs. I don't want to think. I did my thinking on the front end. I don't want to waste time. I just want to obliterate mobs. Faster the better. |
EvilGeko! A proponent of a *less* comic-booky City of Heroes! He wants to make all MMOs as interchangeable as possible! And he's a WoW fanboi! Burn him!
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In other news, the Pope is Catholic and water has been found to be wet. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
EvilGeko! A proponent of a *less* comic-booky City of Heroes! He wants to make all MMOs as interchangeable as possible! And he's a WoW fanboi!
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Also, the point of knockback is to amuse me. As I back mobs into corners with hurricane and force-bolt them off buildings. Who needs ~precision builds~ when you've managed to stick a DE Quartz into the ceiling of an office building? I ask you!
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Fixed as underlined. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
News Flash!
EvilGeko! A proponent of a *less* comic-booky City of Heroes! He wants to make all MMOs as interchangeable as possible! And he's an Everquest II fanboi! Burn him! |
I've never claimed to be looking for a comic book simulator. I'm looking for a game I find fun. But even if I were, KB is not as prevalent in the comics as it is in the game.
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Actually, its far more common in comics than in the game. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
KB is not as prevalent in the comics as it is in the game.
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Anything that hits anything else in comic books with what we'd describe as "smashing damage" due to impact (explosions, blunt force impact, etc - but not including non-directional crushing) is many times more likely to knock something back in the comic than if a similar situation occurs in the game, and conversely immunity to knockback is far rarer in comic books than in the game.
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And let's not forget the ever popular mechanic that isn't quite possible in the CoX game due to clipping and collision detection mechanics not quite supporting it.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, its far more common in comics than in the game.
Anything that hits anything else in comic books with what we'd describe as "smashing damage" due to impact (explosions, blunt force impact, etc - but not including non-directional crushing) is many times more likely to knock something back in the comic than if a similar situation occurs in the game, and conversely immunity to knockback is far rarer in comic books than in the game. |
I'm talking, of course, about the tossing.
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You could also be talking about the flowing hair.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
And let's not forget the ever popular mechanic that isn't quite possible in the CoX game due to clipping and collision detection mechanics not quite supporting it.
I'm talking, of course, about the tossing. |
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OK. I don't agree. Maybe we read different series.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, its far more common in comics than in the game.
Anything that hits anything else in comic books with what we'd describe as "smashing damage" due to impact (explosions, blunt force impact, etc - but not including non-directional crushing) is many times more likely to knock something back in the comic than if a similar situation occurs in the game, and conversely immunity to knockback is far rarer in comic books than in the game. |
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I see this quite a lot in comics. Much more so than Knockback. If this is what Arcana is calling KB, then I guess so. But effects (punches, beams, etc.) doing KB is really as common as people make it out to be in my experience.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
And let's not forget the ever popular mechanic that isn't quite possible in the CoX game due to clipping and collision detection mechanics not quite supporting it.
I'm talking, of course, about the tossing. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I dunno, EG. Super strength is a staple of comic books and all that basically is is over-the-top knocking/flinging crap around. To put it simply: SS = KB in comics.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I see this quite a lot in comics. Much more so than Knockback. If this is what Arcana is calling KB, then I guess so. But effects (punches, beams, etc.) doing KB is really as common as people make it out to be in my experience.
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If you show someone punching another guy, how do you express in static panels that the strength of that punch isn't normal. A.) the target flies back or B.) the body explodes in gore. Because simply knocking the person out isn't 'super' strength (anyone with normal strength can do that).
Outside of strength, potency is often expressed by knockback. A bullet through the chest? The force may not knock you back but the shock may send you back and even falling down, not dead or unconsious but unable to stand.
And if it has an explosion in it, that's just a big sack of knockback. Period.
I love knockback when I am playing my energy/energy blaster. I hate knockback when I am playing any of my characters that are heavy in AoE damage. I've been on teams where the use of knockback has enhanced the fun, and where the use of it has made it more difficult for everyone else on the team and caused much frustration.
My KB blaster is in the mid twenties, and I pretty much just play her solo or when I duo with Mr. Tealeaf. If I were on a team with her and someone complained about it I would simply say "This is what I do, if it is a problem I can drop team." And then follow through if need be. Not using your primary when you're on a team? I really fail to see the point of that.
If you do want to team and use knockback, one suggestion I have is to form your own teams. It isn't as hard as you might think to lead. Just being willing/able to pick missions and tell everyone who to follow ("Everyone on tank, tank, you take point.") is enough for most situations. If someone complains in that situation, I just say "Knockback is what I do. I'm sorry if that isn't working out for you, and I will understand and have no hard feelings if you seek another team that is more suited to your playstyle."
Energy/energy can be great fun. But not on every team. In my opinion, that doesn't mean they aren't worth playing.
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Pick up any Hulk comic and you'll see a LOT of Knockback. I've seen quite a bit in the Superman comics I've read as well. Not to mention, Thor, and most other "Super Strong Hero Types" comics. Even Silver Surfer has some Knockback.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I see this quite a lot in comics. Much more so than Knockback. If this is what Arcana is calling KB, then I guess so. But effects (punches, beams, etc.) doing KB is really as common as people make it out to be in my experience.
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There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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I guess that's it then. I do read one of the Superman books, but for the most part I don't read a lot of the "100 ton+" SS character books. |
Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
Pick up any Hulk comic and you'll see a LOT of Knockback. I've seen quite a bit in the Superman comics I've read as well. Not to mention, Thor, and most other "Super Strong Hero Types" comics. Even Silver Surfer has some Knockback.
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I see a lot of pushing, shoving, tackling in comics. I think that's all getting conflated with KB. I very rarely see:
Assault Rifles cause AoE KB like they do in the game;
Concussive Blasts (e.g. Cyclops) cause KB as much as Energy Blast does;
Wolverine or Sabertooth causing KB with their claws as Shockwave does.
Even with superstrong characters, I'm much more like to see smashes and crunching than KB. For example, I was reading Uncanny X-Men recently and the X-men were fighting these mutant hunting things. They killed a few of them and used powers (SS, claws, Assault rifles) which cause KB in game but those powers did not in the book. Book was almost all fighting and while I saw monsters get smashed, didn't see any KB.
To be fair in the most recent New Mutants, Sunspot and Colossus were fighting some undead mutant that claimed to be immovable once his feet were planted (KB immunity Arcana?). He had KB Colossus just prior to saying that. Sunspot used his own super-strength to break up the ground under the enemy so Colossus could Knock him out (and back). So I guess that guy had Rooted!
My point is that I can read several comics and maybe one or two will feature KB as we see it in the game.
KB is so ubiquitous in CoH that it's a problem for folks. If every frikken level 1 Skull Lt. didn't have a Knock effect, people wouldn't so vehemently feel like they need knock protection. If there weren't multiple powers which rely on mobs staying nicely clumped around you (Invincibility, RttC, etc.) maybe meleers wouldn't care so much when the Energy blaster knock them out.
But to claim that it's only people that are too lazy to hit W, is just as stupid as saying "No KB." It ignores that meleers have to rely on positioning to do what they do in many offensive and defensive sets. There is no amount of "smart" use of KB that an Energy Blaster could use that would be better than an Ice Blaster's slows or a Fire Blaster's DoT damage. Sure there are exceptions to that statement, but they are so rare as to prove the rule.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
This thread has almost convinced me that its time to make that storm / energy blast defender, and slot for knockback.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Assault Rifles cause AoE KB like they do in the game; |
bearing in mind that the biggest AOE KB power in AR is the M30 grenade. War comics, and of course many many movies and TV shows have people sent flying by a grenade blast
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I can't use KD or KU to knock foes into places I want them, such as into patch powers, next to allies with AoE damage effects in play, or next to allies who benefit from adjacent foes. This is something I commonly do on teams in particular, but I do it even solo on a rare few characters (Psi/Dark Defender comes to mind - get back in that Tar Patch, you runner!)
I'm on board with the idea that the mitigation of most KB powers is not meaningfully better than KD or KU, and that KD and KU lack the overhead of having to chase down a knocked foe (or at least knock him in a direction that's useful). But knocking things around does occasionally have actual utility. I wouldn't ever build for that utility, and find KD or KU more "hands off" by far, but I've used that utility enough to know your absolute declaration isn't true.
But that's pretty darn far from the vehemence with which people defend KB.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.