What is the point of knockback?

QFT. And as someone who plays a hoverscrapper, constantly mobile, I boggle at the mindset.

I know there are a number of Masterminds who would quite happily pummel your Brute into a pulp for that statement. (Or, more accurately, get their henchmen to pummel you into a pulp)

Well, I'm glad that's settled

I have absolutely no problem with letting a player reduce their own KB in some fashion, either through enhancements or an options setting. The only thing I have a problem with is things like suggestions that have the team leader enforce a maximum KB magnitude, or ostracizing people who play with KB.

Really?

In my experience, the team usually ends up being separated into three sides on the issue:
- People who love/like/want the KB (usually, the people actually using the KB powers)
- People who don't care one way or the other, and would rather stop arguing and get on with the game (usually the majority of the team)
- People who want to start a witch hunt on someone because they used Crane Kick once (usually a single melee player)

I will concede that nameless minions possess KB in CoX significantly more often than they do in genre on average. But that's an issue with the PvE critters' use of KB, not the players. The players do not, most of the time, numerically outnumber the critters in a fashion where we become the nameless minions.

On the other hand, the likelihood of seeing KB seems to increase in the genre the higher the numerical superiority of the opposing forces, which does tend to match the general situation of players relative to critters.

Again, DBs combos are, primarily, considered attack strings. You don't have to 'build' an attack chain to use DB's combos, you just string the attacks in a specific order and if you do it right, DB's secondary effect (the combos) is the result.

Although I can understand using an attack chain for tough targets but, IMO, that's what Build up is for, to wipe out the hard targets (people actually have this on auto? pretty wasteful to me).

And vs a single hard target you have to repeat that string over and over. That's a chain.

Build Up lasts for all of 10 seconds. If it dies in 10 seconds it isn't a hard target.

This has also been my experience.

There is a tiny and aggressively noisy contingent of players on the boards who carry on as if knockback was the issue of the ages (tip: pollution and its effects, resource exhaustion and other sustainability issues, disease, the fragility of the global financial system, fiscal mismanagement by governments and its effects, economic inequality and corruption, weapons of mass destruction, abusive use of power and human rights, and a metric ton of other issues are, actually and in fact, more important). The vast majority of the playerbase would rather just log on, play, and have fun, where having fun has far more to do with not dealing with teammates who are prone to rant and argue than it has to do with knockback.

Giving players the choice to change KB into KD, approaches being infinitely easier than solving any of the above problems. Actually since solving this issue is just hard, not impossible, while some of the above are impossible to solve, it probably is infinitely easier.

This argument is honestly irrelevant. It states that because in the grand scheme this isn't an important issue, we shouldn't care about it. Well, I got to tell you. I have a lot of caring in me. I'm a sensitive guy! I think I can do my civic duty and vote and be politically active and still argue vehemently to give folks a choice in whether KB enters into their gameplay experience.

So there.

It's not always about you. There are 7 other players on your team that may benefit from the KB. IF the mobs are still alive after some of them are knocked away from you, then they'll stand up and come running right back since Mudpots has a very taunt aura.

In other words, the mitigation from KB might not help your Stone Armor Brute/Tank but it might just give that squishy a little bit of breathing room.

Indeed almost 90% of the time (especially on farms) Brutes/Tank Can't hold aggro ALL the time. I do not want to delve to far in this issue since I bitter LOL. I have played Stormies, Energy/Kins, Illusion Controllers and Khelds and getting refused to teams just b/c of my AT or Powers feels a bit cold...I already deal with discrimination in my real life I don't like a lot of it in my game! LOL

Scattering things away from a tank is almost always counterproductive. When it happens on teams my usual reaction is something like "Oh he did that because he's stuck with knockback on all his attacks and can't help it," not "I'm glad he did that because it makes things more survivable." Scattering enemies--especially scattering them away from the tank--is almost always to be avoided. It's something I tolerate on Energy Blasters because they are stuck with it. Anyone else will be asked not to do it again.

I cant stand to be on teams where the first thing out of the leaders mouth is you cant you “x” power, so if your on freedom and you want to team, look me up I will run with you and you can KB to your hearts content

And how often do you face those compared to the masses of minions, Lts and the splash of bosses thrown in?

If the mob was in mud pots, then they were hitting the Tanker, not any squishy players. The KB does no good in that instance, not that it ever does much.

Geko, I'm with you all the way. I hate knockback with a passion and I also think it should be changed to knockdown. Knockback does more harm than good.

See? Now if we didn't have people retorting with how lazy you are, we'd all sound like no one cared about KB. It's not a jab at you, just balancing out the reputation of KB

I'm glad I have more people to avoid teaming with then. Makes my game much more enjoyable. I like Knockback. If you don't, then feel free to not ask my Rad/Energy Defender to team with you.

By the way, the only time any team I have been on has said anything about knockback was a comment by the Ice/Axe tank stating that he didn't like knockback. Which happened mere seconds before he scattered the mobs that were surrounding him. Of course, nearly everyone on the team had at least one power in their Primary/Secondary that did knockback (not just knockdown or Knockup). I didn't feel the slightest twinge of guilt as I tossed around my Knockback attacks. Putting the foes into walls and other such objects.

The only person that felt the "detrimental" blow of massive amount of knockback was the DB/WP scrapper. But, then we had a very good Empathy/ Defender on the team.

I think the only times we ever had team wipes was becasue we had aggroed multiple groups accidently, or were fighting AVs.

If you want to debate KB then do so, but stating false blanket statements as fact only shows you are here to troll rather than discuss.

No that's not what I mean.

Maybe you're right. Maybe there are Brutes who run around the edges of the fray and attack single lone targets, while there's a big rumble happening.

I've yet to see it happen, but maybe it exists.

So let's talk for the majority of situations, in the majority of situations when a Brute/Tanker (or even the Mastermind for that matter) can handle the alpha, can handle the aggro and incoming damage (either on their own, or through the support of their team) - unrestricted KB scatter does nothing to help the team. In fact it's a hindrance.



I'm fine with that really.

I'm fine with people just saying they think KB is fun, and like watching stuff get flung around like ...well..ragdolls.

It's the long winded arguments trying to tell me how great KB can be for the group which I personally think are just grasping at straws.

Yeah, if you're on a team composed of nothing but squishes, all of whom have practically no method of protecting themselves then KB all over the place will be helpful.

But I'm focused on the teams that are even halfway balanced in composition, comprised of a number of different ATs filling in different roles.

Other than instances when the poop hits the fan, taking enemies someone else has just specifically organized into a great big pile for slaughter and knocking them in all directions is not helpful.



It doesn't happen very often.

But it does happen, in the situations I've been in, the teams quickly got on the player who basically wasn't going along with what the team was doing. It had less to do with the Brute in those circumstances.


I covered this I believe.

Mezzed is fine. Because the Brute has already taken the alpha hit. Mezzed means they are still in a tight circle around the brute for PBAoE, and the AoEs of the ranged players (KB affects these folks too), mezzed means they are all within reach of constant ST attacks for Fury. Mezzed means you don't have to run about willy nilly trying to get a hold of enemies.

And before we get back to the "W" key, I'm pretty sure the player using KB has one as well.

So I know you're having a bit of fun, but it has less to do with a brute's "precious fury" (which I'm going to steal and use from now on ) and has more to do with the team as a whole.


More Brutes means you just attack more mobs at once.



That's the general assumption yes.

In situations where the Brute can't handle the aggro, where the team can't handle the aggro - yes KB will be useful and probably welcome.


Performance is measured in seconds. (See: Scrapper forums )

I think we're also talking about different things at this point.

I'm not fussed with one off KB shots, where some single target gets knocked down a hallway on accident. Or on teams where they really really need the extra protection.

I'm not even concerned with single target KB, where 1 enemy out of 20-30 will be knocked away from the main fight (though the KB user really should find that elusive "w" key).

I'm talking about uncontrolled AoE scatter. Where it seems the player is consistently knocking things away from the team, and away from the ATs who are specifically designed to be surrounded by enemies.




If you're team has everything under control, and has been cutting down enemies like a scythe - is there really a reason to AoE scatter the mobs?

I've had this happen. It's extremely frustrating.

Teaming with you would make my game less enjoyable.

I wouldn't want to.

Why is it frustrating? Because it's different from the normal Huddle + AOE garbage that fills this game? Why is it so bad to have a little bit of chaos in such a mundane enviorment?

Pro-KBers and Anti-KBers will NEVER see eye-to-eye on this matter. No matter how many times this is brought up and discussed. Instead, each side will create dramatic examples of how KB is beneficial/determental to the team in a variety of circumstance. It's a no win situation and debate.

KB is in this game because it represents the power of a super hero and is an effective tool for mitigation as a secondary effect. Changing it to KD would benefit those who feel exp/min is the best way to play this game, and I have yet to see any information that dictates this group to be in the majority.

I loathe the idea of KB being changed to suit the playstyle of the efficiency experts that are too concerned with their huddle being broken up.

I Brute ALOT and I use KB ALOT. I know both sides of the coin and I've come to realize those that wish to change KB are more stubborn and more selfish than those that enjoy using KB for enjoyment. Do you ever here of people being kicked from teams for NOT using their KB powers? Do you ever here people saying "KB powers only please?" No, instead you here constant stories of "No KB please" and players being kicked for their KB use.

I've even been irritated by the use of KB when it was employed INCORRECTLY (though I've instructed the player rather then scold them), which brings us full circle to the main problem with Knockback in this game...

...INEXPERIENCE OR POOR USE OF KNOCKBACK. There is nothing wrong with the mechanic of KB, only the person utilizing the effect.

I think that sums up my feelings nicely.

I've got one of those. My Claws/EA brute. So far, at lvl 31, he solos +1x4 spawns and how he does it without needing a tidal wave of inspirations is that he can effectively attack single lone targets on the fringes of the spawns without alerting everything in the room. He can kill off 1-3 guys before anyone usually notices.

On a team, he isn't a Tanker (really, few Brutes are) and he'd readily let the Stalker take the alpha than him and yet, he is swimming in Fury. He's just really really effective at ripping apart a target but he also has Spin and Shockwave to unleash AoE dmg if the foes happen to be packed together.

In short, he has no weaknesses or specific circumstances that he excels in and is crap in others. If there is a body, he'll rip it apart. If there are bodies, he'll rip them apart.

My point is, while building for maximum AoE and what not is dandy and all, it sort of reveals a weakness in that you need foes clustered in a certain way for maximum effect. Not a horrible thing, really, you just need to put them in that position first. But if you can't then of course you're going to view everything else a detriment. But then that's how you built the character so not anyone/anything else's fault.

Not when my Dominator Stuns+Immobs the entire group before the Brute is even halfway there. No one gets the alpha, and the Brute's "precious Fury" is left unaltered. Which, slows the rate of the Brutes killing. But then, a mob that's not attacking is not a threat. Funny, same argument used for KB.