Lock the War Zone Back Down
By
Acroyear2,
Posted on: 2009-11-23 13:47 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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i second making RWZ level gated again. They don't necessarily have to raise it back up to 35 in my opinion, but it should be at least 25-30.|
Originally Posted by Celestial_Lord
Seriously, the Rikti War Zone should be locked back down to level 35+ characters. I have no idea what the developers were thinking. The only argument I've seen for it to be open to level 1 characters is for co-op Mission Architect missions, and that's a weak one, imo. For one... exactly how many co-op Mission Architect mission teams are running? Secondly, just put an AE building in Pocket D then.
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As for adding AE to pocket D: i have to agree that AE would make much more sense in Pocket D than in the middle of a war zone, and it would give some more co-op activities there besides Arena and holiday events. i'd suggest locating it under the club space with portals and/or a ramp/staircase going down to it, but anywhere there would be an improvement over having it in the RWZ.
Suggested event/zone activity:Turn the building into a ruin with an accessible interior like some of the redside buildings, and have Rikti picketing the half-demolished AE building while other Rikti roam inside fighting Crey while both try to loot the ruins.
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AE really was totally overblown (a building in EVERY ZONE?!? really??) so as to give it maximum visibility. Then when people found they could exploit farming inside of AE, the city zones emptied and everyone went to the "favorite" AE building ... while all the other buildings were left as vacant as the arenas (still) are.
AE should basically only be present in 4 hero accessible zones (King's Row, Independence Port, Peregrine Island and Pocket D) along with 4 villain accessible zones (Port Oakes, Sharkhead, Grandville and Pocket D). All of the other AE buildings ... especially the ones in Atlas Park and the Rikti War Zone ought to be condemned. Especially the one in Faultline.
Frickin' Faultline has an AE building in it?!?
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Actually that one makes some sense in game. The city is trying to rebuild Faultline so I could see them giving Crey some sort of incentive to build one there in order to try and increase traffic to local businesses in the area (do an AE mission then relax with a Drenched Donut!).
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
Frickin' Faultline has an AE building in it?!?
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Why not? It's not a hazard zone any longer, and I'm sure the (re)construction crews don't mind. |
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Frickin' Faultline has an AE building in it?!?
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As for the suggestion... I'm ambivalent about it. I like being able to bring along (say) a 25-30 I'm working on when my friends are in the RWZ. No, I don't get merits, obviously, but that's not why I'm there. I don't have to character or side hop to help them out - I can just come over. (It was quite nice during ToTing.)
On the other hand, I see the OP's point, as well - ship raids (well, pre-SSK) could be hazardous for someone who IS the right level for the zone. A level 4 is - well, just getting PL'd. (Or being veng/fallout bait, in which case - just warn people ahead of time.)
Perhaps an alternate answer would be taking advantage of the ship information officer to "sign up" for a raid somehow - split the zone ("Due to increased levels of dangerous activity, Vanguard has raised a defensive field around the ship as well") so that sub-35s can't get to it, and you must be signed up with the officer to get in (even if you just want to try soloing pylons - as long as he has your ID, you can get in.)
And "Yes" to having AE in Pocket D.
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Pretty easily. You can enter the Shard at level 1 to buy a Raptor Pack. Also, one side of the ship is close enough to the hills that you MIGHT be able to leap aboard WITHOUT the Ninja Run power. I'm sure Ninja Run would let you reach it.
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Originally Posted by Ad Astra
How does that level 4 get onto the Mothership? Actually, I'm unsure whether it is possible for a lowbie to get up there without being teleported, but I could be wrong.
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Also: GvE Jump Jet?
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
Pretty easily. You can enter the Shard at level 1 to buy a Raptor Pack. Also, one side of the ship is close enough to the hills that you MIGHT be able to leap aboard WITHOUT the Ninja Run power. I'm sure Ninja Run would let you reach it.
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By that logic we should just open up the Hive and Abyss to all levels too |
Originally Posted by Smurch
Bingo.
The problem isn't level 4s in the zone. It's team leaders recruiting level 4s. And maybe that level 4 wasn't "locking out a level 35" but rather no level 35 wanted to join. Taking away player options is rarely a good idea. |
As far as lowbies getting onto the ship; besides the real-money jetpack, these days you can go to the Shard or Grandville at level 1 and get a jetpack if you have the Inf. Plus, they could be a Kheldian.
And to be fair, there ARE fairly low level characters who can contribute. A Traps character with the Force Field generator to provide mez protection, for example. It seems to me the problem would be largely solved if team leaders kicked the leeches.
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Neat idea, but sounds tricky. The only way they can do this in Pocket D, for example, is to enable teleport suppression, which obviously wouldn't work in RWZ.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Perhaps an alternate answer would be taking advantage of the ship information officer to "sign up" for a raid somehow - split the zone ("Due to increased levels of dangerous activity, Vanguard has raised a defensive field around the ship as well") so that sub-35s can't get to it, and you must be signed up with the officer to get in (even if you just want to try soloing pylons - as long as he has your ID, you can get in.)
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I would agree with this... also, regular missions do not end up in the RWZ (an argument you could make for keeping Crey's Folly open, for instance), so there is no real good reason for lowbies to get in the zone. And yes, having the AE building in Pocket D does make a lot more sense: they dropped the AE building from Croatoa, so I wish they had done the same with RWZ, to be honest.
Anyway, Mothership raids are much harder with a lot of SK'd people, and that was my experience BEFORE SSK. It's much, much worse with people lower than that.
Sure, people shouldn't even invite these lowbies, but raids can be pretty chaotic, so it's understandable. This setup only encourages the lazy behavior that comes on raids, anyway... so many people do not run to the hospital, grrr.
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I agree that having AE buildings all over the place is a bit much (they even had one in Croatoa while I14 was in testing) but sometimes they have their (probably unintended) uses. The one in Brickstown came in handy for me while I was doing ToT on my squishy characters. I called my strategy "Crone meets Drone".|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
AE really was totally overblown (a building in EVERY ZONE?!? really??) so as to give it maximum visibility. Then when people found they could exploit farming inside of AE, the city zones emptied and everyone went to the "favorite" AE building ... while all the other buildings were left as vacant as the arenas (still) are.
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I think one AE building per level range (from level 6 and up) would be enough. So maybe have buildings in Kings Row, Skyway, IP, Brickstown and PI, and a co-op one in Pocket D. Don't play my villains often enough to know what zones would be good to cover most level ranges there.
How about the Crey building a defensive perimeter around the AE building in the RWZ, much like the the Vanguard have done with their own base?
They could have NPC reps there talking about how they're "doing their part to help Paragon City" both by building in the zone, and helping to defend against Rikti. And Vanguard wouldn't mind, since they want everyone to defeat Rikti...
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That's what the players led the developers to believe they wanted. Trams, arenas, markets, universities, Ouroboros destinations, PvP zone connections, you name it, players have complained about not having one in every zone.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
AE really was totally overblown (a building in EVERY ZONE?!? really??) so as to give it maximum visibility.
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The developers aren't blameless, though. They're the ones who decided to take this whole "chicken in every pot, car in every garage" concept and go completely overboard with it, like the new Halloween event occurring in multiple zones simultaneously, often while the Zombie Apocalypse event was underway, and increase the spawn rates of GMs to the point of having Scrapyarder spawning as frequently as every half hour and having three Luscas or Paladins in the world at the same time. And, of course, putting an AE building in every zone.
No-one learned their lesson. Not the players, not the developers. When Going Rogue is released, I give it a week before someone demands to know why they can't get to Praetoria from <insert zone>, and the developers will capitulate by adding ten more zone connections to Praetoria in the next update.
Amusing aside: a couple of weeks ago, I was bouncing past an AE building and happened to catch sight of a couple of PPD cops looking at it. The dialog... "Those punks." Obviously an oversight from when a building with graffiti was in that location and the PPD spawn wasn't removed with the building, but it was still funny.
Personally, I'd like to see the Rikti win one, by destroying most of the AE buildings, markets and universities, and some of the trams/ferries/black helicopters. One AE building on each side and one in Pocket D, one market on each side, one university on each side and one in Pocket D, one Arena on each side and one in Pocket D, and sever any zone interconnections that aren't absolutely necessary (we don't need eleven different ways to get to a zone. seriously, we don't). That would concentrate the players in the locations they are interested in, rather than spread all over the entire game world, and put them with other players who share similar interests. And the zone events need to be limited to one zone at any given time. Yes, there would be issues, but those issues can and should be addressed in some way other than "screw it, just put one in every zone!".
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And so your point is that the Devs responded to these requests by putting up AE buildings everywhere but not by granting what was actually asked for? That's a silly assertion.|
Originally Posted by Luminara
That's what the players led the developers to believe they wanted. Trams, arenas, markets, universities, Ouroboros destinations, PvP zone connections, you name it, players have complained about not having one in every zone.
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It took years for Striga and Kings Row to get stores, though they were begged for constantly.
The tram was only extended once... to Skyway and Founders.
When the Hollows was revamped to make it a non-hazard zone, I lobbied for that revamp to go all the way: include a Field Corps Analyst and a base portal... but that didn't happen.
And what's with PvP zone connections in your list? Nothing's ever been changed about that.
During the Closed Beta for the MA, players asked for AE buildings to be removed, and it was... for Croatoa. The exact opposite of your assertion.
We also asked for the AE in the RWZ to be moved to Pocket D, just as people have been doing here and got no response to that except to be given that the original reason for an AE in the RWZ with removed level limitations was for co-op AE at all levels. And again, we said, "Then Pocket D!" to no avail.
It is so logical for the AE in RWZ to be moved to Pocket D that its continued presence in the RWZ is indeed painful to bear. But making up ridiculous player-Dev dynamics to account for it doesn't help the situation.
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Grandville, villain-side. Raptor Packs, from a vendor for 10K right in the main square with the arbiter.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
Pretty easily. You can enter the Shard at level 1 to buy a Raptor Pack.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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It seemed obvious to me that they wanted a co-op zone AE building so heroes and villains could team without facing ganking in a PvP zone - and it also seems obvious to me that such would have been more fitting in Pocket D, so I wouldn't mind that change.
I think I would mind re-gating RWZ though. I like how we don't have to worry about levels much anymore for certain zones, I can't tell you how often I've teamed and run into the "Let's all go to zone x! Oh wait, so-n-so's only level 25, not high enough" type of situations. Sure sure, we can and have adapted and found something else to do, but it feels nice to have the choice. But taking your level 4 toon into such a place is sort of silly.
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And as they seemed to have co-op content at only 35+, their only choice was to put the co-op AE building in the RWZ or Cimerora, which would have been even worse |
Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5
It seemed obvious to me that they wanted a co-op zone AE building so heroes and villains could team without facing ganking in a PvP zone - and it also seems obvious to me that such.
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But now that they've scrapped that limit on co-op content, there doesn't really seem to be any reason why the co-op AE building has to be in the RWZ now.
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Why would anyone lower than level 35 go to a Rikti raid? I think the contact mission to get the vanguard badge that lets you collect Merits requires you be level 35. Rapid merit drops as opposed to the glacial speed of earning them in doors is sort of the whole point of laying siege to the Mothership.
They could've put a virtual arcade in Pocket D instead of RWZ. Use the room every AE building has, but give it Rave lights or something. The roleplayers would complain, but Pocket D is just a dead zone some people use to zone hop quickly year round cept during the seasonal events if you're not on Virtue.
I agree with the majority here. RWZ for 35+ only.
to 
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This.|
Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5
I think I would mind re-gating RWZ though. I like how we don't have to worry about levels much anymore for certain zones, I can't tell you how often I've teamed and run into the "Let's all go to zone x! Oh wait, so-n-so's only level 25, not high enough" type of situations. Sure sure, we can and have adapted and found something else to do, but it feels nice to have the choice. |
The other day I was playing a lvl 43 brute and my wife wanted to play a new character she made. I was doing Serpent Drummer with him and she was able to join me and run with me, which was nice. I like that.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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No, my point was that players have consistently asked for broad accessibility to content without addressing the ramifications of how that accessibility was implemented, and the developers have delivered what the players have asked for with similar lack of foresight.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
And so your point is that the Devs responded to these requests by putting up AE buildings everywhere but not by granting what was actually asked for? That's a silly assertion.
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| It took years for Striga and Kings Row to get stores, though they were begged for constantly. |
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| The tram was only extended once... to Skyway and Founders. |
So did Skyway and FF need the Green line extended, or was it, in fact, because players just wanted easier access to those zones and asked for the extension?
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| When the Hollows was revamped to make it a non-hazard zone, I lobbied for that revamp to go all the way: include a Field Corps Analyst and a base portal... but that didn't happen. |
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| And what's with PvP zone connections in your list? Nothing's ever been changed about that. |
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| During the Closed Beta for the MA, players asked for AE buildings to be removed, and it was... for Croatoa. The exact opposite of your assertion. |
Players demanded for everything to be more accessible, and in the truest monkey's paw fashion, they got exactly what they asked for.
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| We also asked for the AE in the RWZ to be moved to Pocket D, just as people have been doing here and got no response to that except to be given that the original reason for an AE in the RWZ with removed level limitations was for co-op AE at all levels. And again, we said, "Then Pocket D!" to no avail. |
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| It is so logical for the AE in RWZ to be moved to Pocket D that its continued presence in the RWZ is indeed painful to bear. |
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| But making up ridiculous player-Dev dynamics to account for it doesn't help the situation. |
I understand the thoughts behind this complaint and agree that low levels seeking to be Power-Leveled in RWZ is no good.
However, I am much more in favor of less limitations and player behavior controlling things.
Team leaders may need to not invite the low levels (With their own discretion, of course)... But, certainly need to kick the defeated leaches.
It's indeed a shame whenever common sense can't prevail among people... But yeah, I do love the freedom of being able to bring along friends and family without hitting that, "Dratz, we can't go there together".
Although, I think RWZ is the least needed for that (Still, I'm in favor of keeping the no level limit).
AE in the D would be great, yes. I do wonder if there are technical reasons for it not happening. We can get special door missions from the Valentine event... So, maybe it wouldn't be that technical issue in the D... maybe it is indeed the amount of characters? I really don't know, I've just wondered and saw Lumi's post wondering the same thing.
Here is the one thing that makes me truly consider that a limit for RWZ could be in order...
If the zone is being filled too quickly in times of a Mother Ship Raid.
Team Leaders being smart, forming and maintaining teams that are efficient enough is a pretty simple fix to the one problem.
However, if the zone is getting filled with too many low levels looking to be power-leveled... then that's a problem that smart leadership can't entirely defeat (Trying to move the whole event to RWZ2 isn't really a great option).
*shrugs*
I think that might be 2 influence worth... 
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Hmm? I seem to recall a couple of high-level missions sending me the Rikti Crash Site.
| I would agree with this... also, regular missions do not end up in the RWZ (an argument you could make for keeping Crey's Folly open, for instance), so there is no real good reason for lowbies to get in the zone. And yes, having the AE building in Pocket D does make a lot more sense: they dropped the AE building from Croatoa, so I wish they had done the same with RWZ, to be honest. |
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Originally Posted by EU_Damz
Question for the people who do a LOT of mothership raids:
Why do you need the merits? Dont you have all the cossie pieces already!? |
and honestly, id say its really the raid leader's responsibility to check who they are inviting, if you get a 4, politely tell him that his powers would be insufficient to contribute, then if they wont go, boot him. if they are stupid enough to band together and get killed, no exp for them, but i dont see it as an overbearing burden on the leaders, jsut double check before tossing out invites.
Who are the idiots inviting lowbies to a Raid and not kicking them when they refuse to go to the hospital?
Yell at those morons.
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