So did the AE farm nerfs work?
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2009-09-21 05:08 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Fun is a subjective term. What you find to be fun other people might find boring and vice versa, so it is unreasonable to suggest to people what is and isn't fun since that factor is entirely up to them.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Generic MA runs or sewer teams are lot more fun than the 'real' thing. Encouraging new players to have fun seems entirely reasonable.
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The problem I keep finding in a lot of your posts is that you seem to relay certain things as if they were fact when really they're just your own personal preferences and opinions. Opinions aren't facts.
I'm about 7 pages late to this thread, but what the heck, I'll post anyway.
Back when AE farms were big, I did some AE farming of my own. However, I didn't do Boss farms or any of the expoit (Mito) farming, other than once or twice to see what the hoopla was all about. No, my farming was to take a favorite map, load it up with canon (official, non-custom) foes that I find more or less non-tedious, and then start whackin' 'em. I'd get together with a couple of friends (all of us have at least 3 accounts) and we'd pile on a bit 8-man team just doing canon mobs. Good times, and lots of XP and tickets. Farm-tastic. Maybe not crazy farmtastic (no Boss maps or exploits) but good stuff nonetheless. That was before the I16 nerfs.
Now that all-boss farms are gone and custom critters dont give good XP, I find that since I was already used to "dev approved" levels of AE farming, I can still farm the AE for pretty much the same results before, except now its easier thanks to super sidekicking and the difficulty setting stuff.
So, I'm still not sure why people don't AE farm more. There is still good fun and crazy XP to be had, and door sitting or actually contributing are both easier than ever. Even the tickets I get are coming at the same (non-broken) rate I was used to since I wasnt running the "abusive" stuff anyway.
That said, I have been doing non-AE stuff more, but thats just because some of the new powerset proliferation things are pretty exciting and so I'm actually working 1 contact per zone (and doing newspapers otherwise).
So, to me, the AE farm nerfs worked, but I dont quite understand why. Its still very lucrative and ideally set up for the lazy (or for people like me who actually enjoy repetition). I guess people decided they might as well farm for purples also.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
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And I'll still stand by what I said..... to a new player, this is all new. It doesn't matter how much you say those missions are bad, it's coming from someone who is a veteran. That early content is going to look different to a new pair of eyes. And I don't care if it's someone who's already experienced in MMOs, there's still new mechanics at work, new artwork, different combat system. I had come from many MMOs, and the game was new to me when I started. While I dread doing those early missions now, when I look back, I had a great time during my first few weeks because everything was new and different. I'll even go out on a limb and say that for most veterans, they felt the same way during their first few weeks. If they didn't like the game then and felt the way you do now, they wouldn't have renewed their subscription.
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Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
I'm going to have to emphatically disagree with you on this. New players to this game aren't necessarily new players to MMOs, or RPGs in general. The early content in this game consists of fetch quests, fed ex missions, and multiple zone journeys to go defeat X and crew or get the Y item missions. In this day and age most other MMOs have seriously eclipsed this kind of content.
It's not even so much that the missions themselves are bland and boring, or that the long travels are tedious, but it's also the story content. There's plenty of cool story arc things to do 15+ plus, but there is absolutely nothing on the caliber of Faultline or Croatoa for lowbies other than The Hollows, which many new players can blow by on a sewers team without even knowing it. The early missions in this game are designed specifically to get players to run all over the damn place and figure out how to get to different zones, which isn't totally a bad thing. However, the way they are structured makes them boring and tedious. I didn't even like doing them when I was a new player, and I had never played an MMO before. As far as I'm concerned, all non-story arc contacts are just a waste of time and are nothing more than mere filler content to pad time between the players completing one interesting story and getting on to the next one. There are just too damn many contacts in the 1-20 game that give nothing but filler pad missions that send you all over the city and way too many ways to totally avoid that kind of boring drivel and still level. |
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The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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I still fully disagree. The boring junk is only boring junk because we outgrew it and got into more exciting content later. As for people complaining back then...... you're wrong. The people who complained back then are the ones who had already played through those early missions, made a mid-to-high-level character, and then wanted to make another character. In other words.... they were no longer new players. Someone who has been with the game several months has a right to complain because they've seen more. Someone who is just starting and is in their first day or two isn't complaining. I've NEVER seen anyone complain about the early missions the first time they were doing it while they were new. Every true new player I've seen has been like "wow. this is a cool game. The graphics are good, the combat is fun, the zones are cool looking."|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Yes it is.
It's BORING JUNK however naive and unsophisticated a player is. We complained about five years back, when we were ALL 'new players'. The exp stunk, the travel was ridiculous, the missions were monotonous and boring, there were way too many fedex missions and street sweeps. And the devs knew it- compare the low level hero game to the low level villain game. The monotony exists, but only because of a lack of diversity. I would never recommend that a new villain skip the 'official' content- if you haven't played it before, it's relatively fun, engaging and a good introduction to the game world and the mechanics of combat. The low levels have been improved greatly by all those QOL changes over the years, but the low level hero game is flat-out garbage & a poor introduction to the game that is not at all indicative of the kind of fun available. I'm not sure how suggesting that people skip boring, annoying content that stunk the day it was released and has only grown worse with time is "turning around" anything. Generic MA runs or sewer teams are lot more fun than the 'real' thing. Encouraging new players to have fun seems entirely reasonable. |
Ask a player who's been with the game for a few days and is doing normal content "what do you think?" I doubt you'll hear many, if any, negative comments. Those negative comments only come later, after the player is playing higher-level content and they're faced with possibly doing the early-level stuff again. When they're doing the stuff for the first time, it's all fun and games.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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It's garbage on its own merits. Villain side is fun enough the first few times through- hero side is straight up junk from the second you exit the tutorial.|
Originally Posted by Barata
I still fully disagree. The boring junk is only boring junk because we outgrew it and got into more exciting content later.
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Poorly written and organized around a terrible design principal ("we don't have an end-game, so let's make advancement as TEDIOUS AS POSSIBLE to keep 'em paying!"), there is literally nothing to recommend it.
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| As for people complaining back then...... you're wrong. |
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| The people who complained back then are the ones who had already played through those early missions, made a mid-to-high-level character, and then wanted to make another character. |
Which may have something to do with my original character being ma/sr, but even so.
I remember how excited we were when we got into Perez because it meant we could level without all that ridiculous travel to other zones for no reason.
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| Every true new player I've seen has been like "wow. this is a cool game. The graphics are good, the combat is fun, the zones are cool looking." |
The low level missions however are garbage, and more likely to chase someone off than encourage them to explore further.
But you keep on defending the bog-awful stuff as long as you want.
It's good for a laugh if nothing else.
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My City Was Gone
From my stand point, he's not defending the content per se but defending the ideal "new players" don't know the content is boring since they have never experienced it before nor have they experience any other content in CoH to compare it to.
I tend to agree with him but I also agree the content in the low levels is 1. boring and 2. annoying for low level characters (specifically the fedex missions).
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Gamers know crap when they play it.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
From my stand point, he's not defending the content per se but defending the ideal "new players" don't know the content is boring since they have never experienced it before nor have they experience any other content in CoH to compare it to.
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I'd prefer people's first encounter with 'real content' be something fun and engaging like Faultline, not a queasy stew of street sweeping, warehouse kill-alls and multi-zone fedex's.
Okay, sure that might seem captivating to some pure naif from the deep rainforest who's never seen a computer before. But it is a huge turn-off for anyone with even a passing familiarity with computer games.
The intrigue of character creation & new powers and fun combat could certainly distract them from the fact that what they're running is roughly as fun as pounding on their thumb with a hammer.
That doesn't mean the content is any good, or that they wouldn't be better served avoiding it entirely and picking it back up when it stops being pure unadulterated crap.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Can I agree with both sides of the 'new players will enjoy it because it's new/no they won't because it's boring' debate?
New players will enjoy it because it's new to them: Agreed. About this time last year I was on my trial 2 weeks. I ran around Atlas Park fighting Hellions and giggling madly every time my NRG/NRG blaster KB'd one halfway across the street or over a wall. I knew NOTHING of the game mechanics and when I ran into my first purple conning Fallen Gunner all I could remember was some bit of the tutorial that said foes that conned purple were incredibly powerful. Lord Recluse himself couldn't have given me as much of a fright as this guy did.
Were the missions banal and repetitive? No! I had a 60's superspy inspired scrapper (MA/SR) and her very first mission had her beating up Skulls in a dance club - Yeah baby yeah! Then onto the next, with hordes (it seemed like hordes) of uniformed fascist goons in a warehouse. Yup, even beating up Council was thrilling back then.
I accepted an invite to a sewer team and was absolutely stunned when I first saw someone using an AoE (I think it was Energy Torrent) on a close packed group - BOOM! So much damage! Fancy costumes, amazingly varied powers, great animations, hilarious enemy dialogue, the 15 minutes I spent fighting one Headman Gunner during a completely unexpected Rikti invasion... It was great. All of it.
But...
No they won't, because it's boring: Agreed. I had fun heroside, but I played a lot more villains. At the time I got my first 50 villain my highest hero was 15. When I did go back and run heroside I went via the Hollows and Croatoa, and this and a couple of TFs meant I didn't really run 'classic' hero content until the late 30s... and the terminal boredom of The Terra Conspiracy (aka Defeat all DE then do it again, and again, and again...) slowed my levelling of that character to a crawl.
I had a fun and varied early hero experience in AP, the Sewers and the Hollows and a bit with a team in KR. Had I went the regular contact route... I'd have still enjoyed the fun of my characters and all their fancy powers, but the endless zone hopping and identikit missions of classic heroside content I do find a little wearying now, and might have then.
PLing isn't the answer (for me at least) and to be on topic for a moment I'm not at all sorry the Age of AE is apparently over, but I can see why people do it. A better answer would be to redo the older hero content, but I guess that's on the back burner until GR is out, if not longer 
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The lower level content needs a revamp. That's for sure. ALOT of heroside content needs a revamp (*cough* Shadow Shard, positron *cough*)|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Gamers know crap when they play it.
I'd prefer people's first encounter with 'real content' be something fun and engaging like Faultline, not a queasy stew of street sweeping, warehouse kill-alls and multi-zone fedex's. Okay, sure that might seem captivating to some pure naif from the deep rainforest who's never seen a computer before. But it is a huge turn-off for anyone with even a passing familiarity with computer games. The intrigue of character creation & new powers and fun combat could certainly distract them from the fact that what they're running is roughly as fun as pounding on their thumb with a hammer. That doesn't mean the content is any good, or that they wouldn't be better served avoiding it entirely and picking it back up when it stops being pure unadulterated crap. |
What's been keeping me playing? The inventions system, the market, powerset proliferation and the wait for GR.
Once there is a new low level game, I might have the urge to roll a new alt.
With that said leveling from 1-24 isn't so bad now with all the bumps. Sewer team it, then do some newspapers/radios, mayham, safeguard and you are good for level 20.
Unfortunately as a vet I've done all that. I'm looking forward to GR.
EDIT: Luckily I got a few lowbies up to levels 17-20, using AE farms before I16, so I'm ready for Dbl xp push to lvl 24. Then it's just waiting on GR.
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The fun of a new character and news powers and just the NEW of a game you haven't played before can definitely carry you over banal, wretched content.|
Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
I had a fun and varied early hero experience in AP, the Sewers and the Hollows and a bit with a team in KR. Had I went the regular contact route... I'd have still enjoyed the fun of my characters and all their fancy powers, but the endless zone hopping and identikit missions of classic heroside content I do find a little wearying now, and might have then.
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But it would be better for everyone if the content reinforced that 'new car smell' instead of relying on it to cover up the stench of garbage.
My position is definitely hardening on the topic- I started off thinking "sure it stinks, but whatever- you can PL past it, you can MA past it, GR is on the horizon...options are there". But now I feel like they NEED to completely re-do the low level hero game in the interest of putting our best foot forward.
MMO development is a cutthroat enterprise, and I think they could markedly improve their odds of retaining new players by devoting some development time to a re-write of the low level hero content.
They could improve it by 1000% just by re-writing the stories & dialog and ditching most of the street sweeps & fedex's. It really wouldn't take much to upgrade it from awful to average.
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My City Was Gone
When I started so long ago, even I found the long haul to the Hollows annoying after the third time.
It was annoying hauling booty to a waypoint miles away from Wincott, tripping over Pumicites and then having half the group quit out.
I was very grateful when someone told me I could skip the whole thing and just move on to Kings Row.
These days, I just PL to 20-26 and do the Striga stuff for the temp powers, or do Faultline/Cap au Diable arcs as they're relatively interesting and offer cool temp powers.
Though it was fun rolling a Mind/Cold and teaming up to level 4-6 on Issue 16 launch, I haven't touched her since because I've done the low-level grind heroside.
AE is the best thing to hit this game, farm nerfs notwithstanding. I like having different lowbie stuff to do.
It would be a great boon if the Devs could look at lowbie hero content. If anything, GR might offer an alternate path to 1-50 that would make it more fun to experience the grind.
Don't get me wrong, I love the game but after 4.5 years I just want to hit 50, Acco out, IO out and test my builds in all sorts of situations.
(Edit: I just saw Mod08's reply and he's spot on. I farm because I love diving into massive amounts of mobs and firing off attacks and seeing the long list of defeated mobs, rewards and so on in my "Drops" tab. I love CoH for this. Not being able to take on 3-4 even level mobs in WoW at level 6 was a MASSIVE TURN-OFF. I *should* be able to take 3-4 even cons!)
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And here's where I agree with you. I've long advocated sprucing up the early content so that it's the equal of the newer content. There's a very obvious dichotomy within the game. You take a newer zone like Croatoa or Striga, and it's still a joy to play through. The older zones are fun only when you're new and learning the ropes. Once you play the newer zones though, the older ones just feel old and stagnant. Face it, once you "graduate" from Kings Row and head off to Steel Canyon, you don't want your contact sending you back to Kings Row for half of the missions. When that happens, I find myself thinking "didn't I just get strong enough to take on SC or Skyway? Why am I back here again?" Where I disagree with the devs is that they feel it's better to only concentrate on new content, while I feel it's important to devote some time to the old content so that it's on par with the new ones.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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My position is definitely hardening on the topic- I started off thinking "sure it stinks, but whatever- you can PL past it, you can MA past it, GR is on the horizon...options are there". But now I feel like they NEED to completely re-do the low level hero game in the interest of putting our best foot forward. ... |
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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This. All of the old line hero material needs a thorough revision. Contacts ought to live in the zones where the mobs they focus on are the visible problem, and ought to give missions in that zone. Being introduced to a new contact in a different zone is all anyone needs to do to induce someone to figure out how to get there. |
Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
It's not even so much that the missions themselves are bland and boring, or that the long travels are tedious, but it's also the story content. There's plenty of cool story arc things to do 15+ plus, but there is absolutely nothing on the caliber of Faultline or Croatoa for lowbies other than The Hollows, which many new players can blow by on a sewers team without even knowing it. The early missions in this game are designed specifically to get players to run all over the damn place and figure out how to get to different zones, which isn't totally a bad thing. However, the way they are structured makes them boring and tedious. I didn't even like doing them when I was a new player, and I had never played an MMO before.
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If the missions involve Tsoos, Outcasts, or Vazhilok, those contacts and their missions belong in Steel Canyon; that's where they live. If it's Trolls, Clockwork, or the Lost, they ought to live in Skyway. This simple change would help the old content make a little more sense with minimal revisions to the underlying stories, which probably ought to be looked at as well.
Security Chiefs are Crey sleeper agents, and ought to be targetable enemies.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
Security Chiefs are Crey sleeper agents, and ought to be targetable enemies. |
Hah!!
It's funny because it's true...
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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A few clever skins wouldn't go amiss either. I remember running the starter hero arc years ago and the only one I ever saw 'unique' scenary for was the Skulls' Suparadine lab (the small warehouse with the bubbling green vats). Since replaying them I've seen the Dance Party warehouse, the Council Warehouse and even the Burned Office Block. But once out of there it's generic warehouses and offices for about ten levels till you can see the Faultline stuff.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
MMO development is a cutthroat enterprise, and I think they could markedly improve their odds of retaining new players by devoting some development time to a re-write of the low level hero content.
They could improve it by 1000% just by re-writing the stories & dialog and ditching most of the street sweeps & fedex's. It really wouldn't take much to upgrade it from awful to average. |
I also remember being regailed about someone who was going to face Carnies in an Opera house and was confronted with GenericWarehouse215 and a pop-up saying 'This warehouse has great accoutstics...'.
On the subject of AE nerfs working; no, they didn't for me. All I did was swap out my custom mob for a regular one. The only thing I lost out on is the bridging that allowed me to work 1-20 in a couple of hours instead of a few sittings.
In a way though they did work. I've hardly stepped into an AE building since the i16 launch but I'm increasingly dismayed about the state of the game as well as being exceptionally belligerent on the new forums.
Tyger (50), Mutation-Controller Mind/FF - oldest Mind/FF on Union
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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What's the current state of the game that causes you to be dismayed?
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Originally Posted by Tyger
I'm increasingly dismayed about the state of the game as well as being exceptionally belligerent on the new forums.
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Am I the only one who actually does Atlas (or Galaxy) and Mercy missions?
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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Low level missions, not so much now.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
Am I the only one who actually does Atlas (or Galaxy) and Mercy missions?
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When I started in March, 2005, I printed out copies of the maps to navigate and printed off guides to powersets. I was daunted by having to crawl up overpass ramps or take massive detours to get to missions in Atlas Park. I hardly knew the capabilities of my powers and was clueless as to the range for aggroing hostiles on the street. In Galaxy, there were what turned out to be Vahz in front of my mission door, and they were red to me... they also had weapons and tactics I had not seen before and I was down within seconds. I found numerous other ways to get sent to the Hospital before ever getting to a mission, and I was wracking up debt at level 5. Now, when you start talking about the Maze in Perez Park that was filled with red-con mezzing baddies, or being sent to Outer Mongolia in the Hollows up a mountain with the Annual +7 Madness Mage Convention in full swing, it gets even tougher and more frustrating. I hung in there, but it was a steep learning curve and there was a "Reserved" sign on my hospital bed.
Well, now there are Raptor Packs at lvl 5, Assemble the Team vet powers, Mission Teleporters (not to mention Base teleporters, Pocket D teleporters and Ouroboros later on), debt at lvl 10, XP Smoothing, low level Accuracy Boost and Super Sidekicking. There are now Vet Powers like the Nemesis Staff and Sands of Mu and a perma Temp power for Origin to fill in the attack chain in low levels. Most of what made the game so tough four years ago has been modified.
I still prefer teaming to soloing, though, and it is simply easier to run through the Sewers to about lvl 7 or 8 than try to herd a team of lvl 1 cats to a series of mission doors. Afterwards, I run the regular content on teams, and make sure to hit Faultline, Striga and Croatoa at appropriate levels. I like the Midnight Club membership missions and Mercedes Sheldon's missions once in the club. I like to run Frostfire and even the Caves of Atta now that I know how to act in those situations. But for me, hitting the sewers for a bit of concentrated action is preferable to trying to team to run Atlas or Galaxy missions. Often, I could not get any takers in those low levels and had to run missions solo. A sewer team for a bit for me is the way to go early on.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
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Nope. I especially like to do the Mercy ones since Kalinda isn't too horrible about sending me all over the place and I get merits from her but I still do my Galaxy ones.
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Originally Posted by Megajoule
Am I the only one who actually does Atlas (or Galaxy) and Mercy missions?
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Originally Posted by Tyger
I also remember being regailed about someone who was going to face Carnies in an Opera house and was confronted with GenericWarehouse215 and a pop-up saying 'This warehouse has great accoutstics...'.
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Har!
I just ran that mission and actually laughed out loud at the entry text.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I do the Mercy missions, cause these are well done imo. When I decided to try out hero side to bring more people in I tried to do the into mishes on a couple toons. Most times I gave up for utter boredom or crapiness and street sweeped or sewer runs till I could use the banner.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
Am I the only one who actually does Atlas (or Galaxy) and Mercy missions?
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Maybe it is cause of external sources that affected my opinion, but I doubted, they just feel kludgey and sporadic.
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You are not the only one. I always do the starter missions for all my characters.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
Am I the only one who actually does Atlas (or Galaxy) and Mercy missions?
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I have never leveled a character to 50 solo. That is my (someday) goal.
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Yep, I've brought this one up before. Talk about a disappoinment. Thinking you're about to get some cool unique map, instead it's a bog standard Warehouse mish (in Brickstown I think?)
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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I just ran that mission and actually laughed out loud at the entry text. |
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Well yeah, Brickstown is known throughout Paragon City for its theater district.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax
Yep, I've brought this one up before. Talk about a disappoinment. Thinking you're about to get some cool unique map, instead it's a bog standard Warehouse mish (in Brickstown I think?)
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Wait what?
It's BORING JUNK however naive and unsophisticated a player is.
We complained about five years back, when we were ALL 'new players'. The exp stunk, the travel was ridiculous, the missions were monotonous and boring, there were way too many fedex missions and street sweeps.
And the devs knew it- compare the low level hero game to the low level villain game. The monotony exists, but only because of a lack of diversity. I would never recommend that a new villain skip the 'official' content- if you haven't played it before, it's relatively fun, engaging and a good introduction to the game world and the mechanics of combat.
The low levels have been improved greatly by all those QOL changes over the years, but the low level hero game is flat-out garbage & a poor introduction to the game that is not at all indicative of the kind of fun available.
Generic MA runs or sewer teams are lot more fun than the 'real' thing. Encouraging new players to have fun seems entirely reasonable.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone