Dark Miasma/Storm Summoning - Are They Powerful Sets?
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2009-09-10 19:53 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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In fact, lowering resistance is the only way to make a kin more useful. One kin can easily keep the team at the damage cap if he's halfway competent, especially now that we can have 8 man spawns no matter what the teamsize is. The only way up from there is -res.
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Originally Posted by Arilou
I'd also note that having someone to debuff res is one way of making Kin even MORE useful.
Consider that someone with capped damage gets more damage points out for every point of resistance that is lowered... |
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Like most of the folks in this thread, I'm a big fan of the Dark Miasma and Storm sets. Local Man is a Dark/Elec defender. In effect, he is a Blue-Side Dominator, with tons of controls, debuffs and blasts. With Pet Gaze + Tesla Cage, I can take the Boss out of the fight. I have two pets, in Fluffy and Sparky. Fearsome Stare is great control with a -ToHit Component. And any Dark Miasma player should know to spam his heal on any AV -- which combines a heal with the -Regen. While a Kinetics character supports the melee-types, my Dark Miasma Defender provides more support for the ranged, squishy types, with ToHit Debuffs and a heal centered around me rather than around the foe. For an AV, spamming that heal can keep ranged characters in the battle -- and I can always bring them back if they fall.
Storm is the one secondary for controllers which can add significant damage from the secondary, other than Trick Arrow. This can be the difference in whether a controller can solo effectively. The debuffs and controls in Storm often stack with many of the primary powers to make Storm one of the most effective secondaries for controllers. My personal ranking is Rad first, then Storm -- but it really depends on the character and the team. Rad may be better for a large team, but Storm is often better for smaller teams and solo.
On the Red side, my experience is more limited. I find that both Dark Miasma and Storm are wonderful secondaries for Masterminds. Both increase the survival for the MM and the henchies. I don't find any of the other secondaries to be as effective.
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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:\ I think i've sat here for about 10 minutes trying to think of a decent response to your post. As far as storm goes I do not have enough experience playing one to really say anything about it.|
Originally Posted by Celidya
About DM, yes, i stopped my DM defender at around lvl 29 after doing a Citadel TF. I had a 41 merc/DM a loooong time ago as well. Again it's not a bad set or i'll never kick a dark from a team
 I just think it's a "jack of all trades, master of none" when it comes to keep alive, which is fine when it's the only support in the team, but less effective than "specialized" supports for me since it's usually not a problem at all to find 2 or 3 support characters, one focused on buffing/keeping the team alive, and one focused on offense (typically a /kin or /rad).Storm however, i have enough experience with it to know why i don't look for storms. Again i'll never kick them but i'll just wish they had something else in their powersets when i team them.  I have a 50 fire/storm with a 500M build, had a 41 earth/storm, 50 storm/elec defender, and quite a few more in the low levels just because i love the visuals/thematics of the set. I've tried to like it as much as i could, trying from a soft capped build to perma-hasten recharge, i just can't find any use for those characters since there is always another hero doing a lot better on my character selection screen. I actually feel bad when joining a tf with them, i know i could just bring a /kin and the tf would be twice as fast, or a bubbler and there would be no deaths at all, or my perma hasten/perma AB empath to make everyone happy, or even my ill/rad to make sure any AV will die fast. As someone stated above, Storm shines for the "oh crap" moments. That's exactly what i tried to explain above before some posters jumped on me The whole point of having a support character in the team is to AVOID the "oh crap" moments, which is by far not what Storm is the best for. Else i would just invite tanks/scrappers/blaster and just have fun killing stuff. |
DM is another story obviously.
I think the main issue here is, as stated earlier by mod08, when a dark player is doing their job well you will not be able to tell they are doing anything at all. People just wont be dieing and mobs will go down abit faster then normal. I think this leads to people not really seeing the set for what it is doing.
I respect your opinion but I believe you are comparing apples and oranges. Chances are you do not like sets like DM and storm for the same reason I am bored to death when playing sets like Kinetics and other buffing sets.
D: Toss me a hai @DarkNat My Fify glory: Renzer Dark/Dark Corr., Renzro Dark/Dark Def., Amartasu Dark/Dark Scrap.Less important ones: Fire/Fire Blaster,Ice/Ice Blaster,Ele/Ele Brute, Mind/Storm Troll,Fire/Kin Corr.,Bots/FF MM., DB/Regen Scrap.
With new power customization you can make your DM more visible, though. Mine is now pitch black and I can very well see all the effects in a fight.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
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Pitch Black and the Seven Big Honkies?
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Originally Posted by DSorrow
With new power customization you can make your DM more visible, though. Mine is now pitch black and I can very well see all the effects in a fight.
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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this is not a bad idea at all, and funny as hell
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Originally Posted by Xyzyx
The "Deflected" pop-ups were a big help in providing some visibility to defense (i.e., those Force Fields are actually helping), but what I'd really like to see is an (optional) mission-end pop-up that provides some metrics:
- Bubbly Bubbler's defense buffs prevented 8625 points of damage to the team. - Dark Lord Darkity Dark's to-hit debuffs prevented 6988 points of damage to the team. - Sonicy Joe's resistance buffs prevented 7944 points of damage to the team. - Healy McAurarocker healed 817 points of team damage. If those four happened to find their way onto a typical PuG, there are two certainties: 1) No one would be taking any damage, and 2) Since the green numbers would be (mostly needlessly) flying throughout, and their health bars were always full, someone would say "Great heals!" |
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Well, there is also buffing def and res, but yes, your point is taken.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
In fact, lowering resistance is the only way to make a kin more useful. One kin can easily keep the team at the damage cap if he's halfway competent, especially now that we can have 8 man spawns no matter what the teamsize is. The only way up from there is -res.
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"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Actually, IME, the rest of the team has to pay attention as well if a Dark is your primary mitigation. With a buffer, the team can be a bit crazier, because if you split, the buffs are already up, no need to wait for the debuffs to be applied.|
Originally Posted by ShadowNate
I think the main issue here is, as stated earlier by mod08, when a dark player is doing their job well you will not be able to tell they are doing anything at all. People just wont be dieing and mobs will go down abit faster then normal. I think this leads to people not really seeing the set for what it is doing.
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SG teams I run on are pretty crazy. There are at least four of us who pretty much just run screaming at the enemy no matter the AT we are playing. We like to push beyond our and our teams limits. We don't like waiting on others to start the fight and we are not fond of "gather" or "wait for the debuffs". In this circumstance, buffs are pretty valuable.
My love for buffs not withstanding, I do not understand why someone would not also value debuffs like Freezing Rain and Tar Patch (and Fearsome Stare and Thunderclap and Hurricane and DN to help mitigate some of the three or four spawns we have inevitably aggroed).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Some people see it. I've had a team leader tell me to stop using AE fear because it made things "too easy" as things stood there cowering in a tar patch with howl (sonic) stacking to bring resistances to nothing. But that whole -ACC thing is hard to see in a team, I can agree with that.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
:\ I think i've sat here for about 10 minutes trying to think of a decent response to your post. As far as storm goes I do not have enough experience playing one to really say anything about it.
DM is another story obviously. I think the main issue here is, as stated earlier by mod08, when a dark player is doing their job well you will not be able to tell they are doing anything at all. People just wont be dieing and mobs will go down abit faster then normal. I think this leads to people not really seeing the set for what it is doing. I respect your opinion but I believe you are comparing apples and oranges. Chances are you do not like sets like DM and storm for the same reason I am bored to death when playing sets like Kinetics and other buffing sets. |
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As long as it also has:|
Originally Posted by Mercuryflux
this is not a bad idea at all, and funny as hell
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-Killmaim McScrapper did 345348 points of damage to enemies
-Nukem Blastman did 2342342 points of damage to enemies
I love this idea.
Tempstra.
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Originally Posted by Xyzyx
The "Deflected" pop-ups were a big help in providing some visibility to defense (i.e., those Force Fields are actually helping), but what I'd really like to see is an (optional) mission-end pop-up that provides some metrics:
- Bubbly Bubbler's defense buffs prevented 8625 points of damage to the team. - Dark Lord Darkity Dark's to-hit debuffs prevented 6988 points of damage to the team. - Sonicy Joe's resistance buffs prevented 7944 points of damage to the team. - Healy McAurarocker healed 817 points of team damage. If those four happened to find their way onto a typical PuG, there are two certainties: 1) No one would be taking any damage, and 2) Since the green numbers would be (mostly needlessly) flying throughout, and their health bars were always full, someone would say "Great heals!" |
Tempstra 50 Rad/Dark Defender/War'nt 50 Warshade/Heliosa 50 Fire/Rad Controller//Captain Blue Balls 50 Fire/Ice Blaster/Pinky Swear 50 Dark/Dark ScrapperMind Dreamer 50 Mind/Kinetics Controller/Rex Bubbles 50 Illusion/Forcefield Controller/Cool Wind 50 Ice/Storm Controller/Lil' Miss Dangerous 50 Gravity/Kinetics Controller/Observationist 50 Illusion/Empathy Controller/Kansas City Brawler 50 Stone/Fire Tank/Hades Exhibit One 50 Dark/Robots MM
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You can't forget those :P
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Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
As long as it also has:
-Killmaim McScrapper did 345348 points of damage to enemies, 83572 of which were from -Res debuffs and 132694 of which were from damage buffs. |
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I've played 'fenders, 'trollers and MMs with leadership, especially Assault.|
Originally Posted by Sagamemnon
...or that leadership actually stacks and Assault is 18% damage coming from a defender, 15% from a troller or corruptor.
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I've played scrappers, tanks and brutes on teams with others running leadership, especially Assault.
Never once have I thought about it like this. Thanks for pointing out a new POV to me. Now I know for a FACT my next toon is going to be a defender. Talk about a massive damage power! That .36/sec end cost suddenly seems really small!
Robin
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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I'm saving a character slot for if the Devs ever port over Dark Miasma to Controllers. It would be AMAZING!
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Hm! I'm working on a troller right now and I was thinking to skip some of the more obvious choices for her, I might have to try and work that in.
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Originally Posted by Sagamemnon
Remember people also don't think that trollers are capable of damage...or that leadership actually stacks and Assault is... 15% from a troller.
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I have an anecdote for you. I was, some time back now, on a team with a SG buddy of mine I've known a long time. He doesn't hold back, and charges on in with the expectation that either his character's build or his teammates will carry him through whatever he's doing. He's a good player and firmly grasps the game mechanics, so he's not just being a Leroy. Because I have several Dark Miasma characters, he's used to me being on team doing what I do. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Actually, IME, the rest of the team has to pay attention as well if a Dark is your primary mitigation. With a buffer, the team can be a bit crazier, because if you split, the buffs are already up, no need to wait for the debuffs to be applied.
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One day we were playing villains on a largeish team, fighting Longbow. My friend was on a SS/Invuln Brute and I was on a Dark/Dark Corr. There was another Dark Miasma Corruptor on the team, but we didn't know the player.
For much of the map, he and I were ahead of the party jumping in the next spawn while the team mopped up the previous one. At some point, for reasons I don't remember, he and I were separated as I got entangled in some other fight. My friend jumped in a large Longbow spawn with the other Dark's assistance. His health dropped precipitously, and he ended up being defeated. It seems that stacked sonic grenades and then general damage output did him in. (This was back when the -RES effect was still unresistable, too.)
In one of our global channels, where the other Dark Miasmist couldn't see it, he said "Hmm, this Dark isn't UberGuy."
The intended point of the story is that your statement about whether the rest of the team has to pay attention strikes me as a little too broad. Sure, if a team all has shields or whatnot they can all run off and do their thing regardless of whether the buff caster is around - that's just the nature of buffs compared to debuffs, and it's inarguably an advantage. However, I think the anecdote illustrates that, so long as you actually are near a Dark, and the player is on the ball, you don't actually have to think about it. The tools the set has are good enough to allow people to just dive in, because that's what my friend was doing until he realized he couldn't rely on that other player to be as on the ball as he was accustomed to from others.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Not sure if you're serious or not, but I may as well respond since others are. It'd be way problematic. Certain sets would look disproportionately bad, unless there was some way to account for every effect that can be used to protect one's team. How do you calculate how many points of damage one prevents by keeping a Gunslinger on his butt with knockdown? Or how much damage enemies would have done if they weren't drowning in -recharge, or running from a Tornado, or feared? What's the damage mitigation value of immobilizing a Warwolf at range? How much do I prevent by taking the alpha strike with Seeker Drones? It'd be a good comparison for strict buff sets and several debuff sets, but anything with more exotic defenses would end up looking gimped going solely by the numbers, which would be enough to make a lot of players get the wrong impressions about those sets.
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Originally Posted by Xyzyx
The "Deflected" pop-ups were a big help in providing some visibility to defense (i.e., those Force Fields are actually helping), but what I'd really like to see is an (optional) mission-end pop-up that provides some metrics:
- Bubbly Bubbler's defense buffs prevented 8625 points of damage to the team. - Dark Lord Darkity Dark's to-hit debuffs prevented 6988 points of damage to the team. - Sonicy Joe's resistance buffs prevented 7944 points of damage to the team. - Healy McAurarocker healed 817 points of team damage. If those four happened to find their way onto a typical PuG, there are two certainties: 1) No one would be taking any damage, and 2) Since the green numbers would be (mostly needlessly) flying throughout, and their health bars were always full, someone would say "Great heals!" |
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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Actually, IMO, your anecdote proves MY point. Had your friend paid attention, he may have realized that the not-UberGuy Dark was not doing the things UberGuy may have done and might have made different choices in what he was doing (something as simple as dropping a purple inspire), instead of just expecting the situation to be handled and dying.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
The intended point of the story is that your statement about whether the rest of the team has to pay attention strikes me as a little too broad. Sure, if a team all has shields or whatnot they can all run off and do their thing regardless of whether the buff caster is around - that's just the nature of buffs compared to debuffs, and it's inarguably an advantage. However, I think the anecdote illustrates that, so long as you actually are near a Dark, and the player is on the ball, you don't actually have to think about it. The tools the set has are good enough to allow people to just dive in, because that's what my friend was doing until he realized he couldn't rely on that other player to be as on the ball as he was accustomed to from others.
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Granted, it is easier to look at your buff bar and see Fortitude or check your combat monitor and see your defense is capped, than to know, DN is up on the Lt. to my right, I see those five are feared, the defender is close enough to me so that TG will hit me if needed, Fluffy has tentacled and moved into melee so is further debuffing...
All of which is my point, sometimes its just a tad easier to work with buffers. Not better, easier. Like the Dark Side.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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But that isn't what you said in the post I responded to. You laid it instead at the feet of the powerset, which, without further qualification, implies that the powerset can't supply the needed support no matter who is at the helm. It's cool if that's not what you meant, but I certainly read it that way.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Actually, IMO, your anecdote proves MY point. Had your friend paid attention, he may have realized that the not-UberGuy Dark was not doing the things UberGuy may have done and might have made different choices in what he was doing (something as simple as dropping a purple inspire), instead of just expecting the situation to be handled and dying.
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I certainly acknowledge that buffs are simpler by the very fact of their fire-and-forget nature, and even said so in my post above. That's just inherent and there's nothing that could ever change that. Even if debuffs didn't scale with foe level, they'd still be fire-and-forget.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I guess I can see how you might have gotten that. What I meant was, the people on the team need to be aware of what the Dark is doing. They have to pay attention to where (or if) the debuff is happening. They have to be aware if the Dark is ready to help or is busy doing something else. As your story shows, on top of that, even if they see the Dark, they have to then also hope they do something useful. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
But that isn't what you said in the post I responded to. You laid it instead at the feet of the powerset, which, without further qualification, implies that the powerset can't supply the needed support no matter who is at the helm. It's cool if that's not what you meant, but I certainly read it that way.
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With a buffer, if you have the buff, you know, if you don't have the buff, you know. If you lack the buff when you enage in a fight, it is unlikely you are going to get the buff in time (although a buffer may have some type of blast or control that could be awesome), although healing can be that way I guess.
As far as individual performance, you can have inattentive buffers just as easily as less attentive de-buffers.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I'm a little ashamed to admit this, but a couple of times on my Dark Defender, after hearing a round of 'great heals!' I'll go afk for a mob or two and see what happens. More often than not, the team gets a whacking. And not for my lack of heals. I try to educate the team thereafter that my Debuffs are having the most benefit, and oftentimes it sinks through. Other times of course it doesn't. I do what I can to educate.
Edit: Fortunately, this is a rare occurance. More often than not, even on PuGs, my Dark Defender is welcomed on any team.
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When I see someone say great heals on a team that is bubbled and barely taking damage, I try to remember that when people say the wrong thing, they meant to say the right thing. |
Originally Posted by Ignatz
I'm a little ashamed to admit this, but a couple of times on my Dark Defender, after hearing a round of 'great heals!' I'll go afk for a mob or two and see what happens. More often than not, the team gets a whacking. And not for my lack of heals. I try to educate the team thereafter that my Debuffs are having the most benefit, and oftentimes it sinks through. Other times of course it doesn't. I do what I can to educate.
Edit: Fortunately, this is a rare occurance. More often than not, even on PuGs, my Dark Defender is welcomed on any team. |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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It's a switch-off. With an enemy-based debuffer, the team has to pay attention to what the debuffer has targetted. With a buffer, the team can go crazy, but the buffer has to pay attention to whether the team is buffed. It's a matter of who has to pay attention on any given team.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
They have to pay attention to where (or if) the debuff is happening. They have to be aware if the Dark is ready to help or is busy doing something else. As your story shows, on top of that, even if they see the Dark, they have to then also hope they do something useful.
With a buffer, if you have the buff, you know, if you don't have the buff, you know. |
Personally, I like the default mode of any team for EVERYONE to pay attention. If you have a buffer on your team, you SHOULD pay at least a modicum of attention: few things are more aggravating than being a buffer when the team scatters to the four winds with no consciousness of the poor buffer running around trying to help everyone. It's part of the reason why a) I just won't play a Kin and b) I don't always shield everyone on my team when I'm on a Sonic or Ice or what have you (I'll generally shield toons that I observe have a tendency to take aggro).
As to the overall question of this thread, I simply cannot agree with anyone who does NOT see Storm or Dark as top-tier sets. I truly think they are missing something in their assessment.
Life - a sexually transmitted terminal condition.
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I haven't seen this with my Dark/Dark, at least not from mid-levels on. |
Originally Posted by Neuberg_Crowley
It's a switch-off. With an enemy-based debuffer, the team has to pay attention to what the debuffer has targetted.
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I open with Fearsome Stare (which hits a huge area), and most enemies just start cowering. I then drop Tar Patch, then Darkest Night. Perhaps Petrifying Gaze if there's one enemy that can be problematic (Sappers...), then I start attacking, generally with TT and Night Fall, and renewing Fearsome Stare when needed. If Fluffy runs into the group as he often does (if he doesn't and he's recharged I'll often summon him into it) his aura is debuffing everything as well, not to mention his own powers. The only thing that even slightly matters as far as my target is Darkest Night, and that recharges so fast it's no big deal to do it again.
Here's my current build. Not the best, I'm sure, but I manage to do quite well keeping teams alive.
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Tech support IRL, CLR/DRU/MED/WHM/PRI/DEF. Hmm, I sense a pattern...
S 80% E 80% A 40% K 0%
A few of my alts
I'd also note that having someone to debuff res is one way of making Kin even MORE useful.
Consider that someone with capped damage gets more damage points out for every point of resistance that is lowered...
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."