Neuberg_Crowley

It's a good day when it's a tough choice in which thread to say:

"Great job devs! I can't wait for i12!"

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Real Numbers
As a general quality of life improvement we will be adding new functionality in a coming version of the game to display the “real” numbers behind your characters and their powers. This includes a user configurable display of important characteristics such as movement rate, regeneration rate, resistances and many more! Additionally, you will be able to see how those statistics are affected in real time by buffs and/or debuffs affecting your character.

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Yes.



Yes.



Yes.


Yes.


Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.


The old team is dead! All hail the new team!

-This from a bitter, nasty, caustic cynic.

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Ah... I think I understand. Do you mean:

Suppose my even level enemy has 20% damage resistance to smashing. I hit him with with Sonic Siphon and then attack. What happens?

Let's say your attack does X damage. Without using Sonic Siphon your attack would do 0.8 * X damage against your enemy. However, after Sonic Siphon your attack would do 0.8 * X * 1.225 = 0.98 X damage.

I have personally tested this. In fact, here is my data:

Level 50 Fire Tarantula has 20% Smashing Damage Resistance.
Level 50 unslotted Fossilize does 30.57 points of Smashing Damage.
Against Fire Tarantula, Fossilze does 0.8 * 30.57 = 24.46 Smashing Damage.
After Sonic Siphon, Fossilize does 0.98 * 30.57 = 29.96 Smashing Damge.

To formalize this somewhat:
Let enemy damage resistance, E, be a decimal value from 0.0 (0%) to 1.0 (100%).
Let damage resistance debuff, F, be a decimal value from 0.0 (0%) to 1.0 (100%).
Let gross damage of an attack, D, be any number >= 0.
O = Overall Damage

O = D * (1.0-E) * (1.0+F)

Hope that helps.

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I think that's it. Sorry, I thought there was some very strange way of calculating Res Debuffs on Res, but I couldn't find what I was looking for when I did a search. It sounds like your tests covered it anyway.

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I write this in hopes that someone can:

1) confirm or deny this information, and
2) fill in the details (if true)

I am, however, fairly certain this is accurate

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I personally confirmed the values of resistance debuffage for Sonic Siphon and Disruption Field. I tested it again mobs + and - to me and the modifiers were correct.

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Are you referring to the modifiers due to differences in levels? I'm in agreement with you there. What I'm referring to is the effect of Resistence Debuffs against opponents' Resistance values.


BTW: really great guide- I'm very glad to see such an unusual combination get such a good guide. I'm kind of sonic-ed out (I have a 41 Sonic/Elec Blaster, a 31 Sonic/Dark Defender, a 32 Illusion/Sonic Troller, an 18 Sonic/Sonic Corruptor...), but I did just start an Earth/Storm Controller, so I'll definitely be using your guide as a reference!

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Dear HotButteredSoul,

I don’t trust you. So I went ahead and used Sonic Siphon on an enemy and recorded all the numbers. Guess what? I only got a 20.25% boost in damage. You said it would be 22.5% You’re a liar! How dare you!

Bummed in Brickstown

Dear Bummed,

There’s one thing I didn’t mention in my guide. It can get rather complicated for some, so I didn’t go into it. Frankly, it is covered in great detail in iakona’s Power Data Standardization v2.0 (Issue 7). If you check that article you will discover a table called “COMBAT MODIFIERS.” Combat modifiers are adjustments to your powers based on the number of levels your enemy differs from you. Ever notice that you do more damage and longer holds against enemies that are lower level than you? Enemies that are higher level than you take less damage and are held for shorter times. This applies to damage resistance as well. An enemy one level above you applies a 0.9 combat modifier to your powers. That means, a 22.5% resistance debuff against an even level enemy becomes a 22.5% * 0.9 = 20.25% resistance debuff. From that alone I know you were fighting an enemy +1 to you. Just so you know, +2 has a 0.8 modifier, +3 a 0.65, and +4 is 0.48. Yep, against a +4 your Sonic Siphon will do a 10.8% damage resistance debuff instead of 22.5%. Check out the table in iokona’s post for more information.

Good luck.



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I write this in hopes that someone can:

1) confirm or deny this information, and
2) fill in the details (if true)

I am, however, fairly certain this is accurate:

In addition to the level modifiers, I believe Resistances resist Resistance Debuffs (I can't think of any easier way of saying that). What I don't recall is the exact formula (ie: how Resistance and Resistance Debuffs interact, nor how the gross damage applied is modified). I will look for the details on this, but if anyone else has the info readily available, fire away!

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Stone Prison[/color]
Available at Level: 1
Accuracy: 1.2
Range: 80
Endurance: 7.8
Recharge: 4
Damage Scale: 5 * 0.2 ticks = 1.0 Smashing Damage over 9.2 seconds (2.77778 BI)
Duration: 28 seconds (18 PvP)

“Immobilizes a single target within an earthy formation and deals some Smashing damage over time. Some more resilient foes may require multiple attacks to Immobilize. Stone Prison can also reduce a target's Defense.”

The single target immobilize for Earth is considered optional to some. Why take it when you can take the AoE immob at level 2 and halt an entire group in its tracks? The logic makes sense. Think about it: what if you want to keep a pack of Vahz immobilized in Freezing Rain, or stuck next to a Mort suffering from Radiation Infection, or cooking in Burn? An AoE immobilize will suit you better than a single target version of that power. Right?

I hate to break it to you, but you don’t have any of those powers! If you know you’ll be partnering with a Fiery Aura tank or Storm Summoning or Radiation Emission character, maybe then prioritize Stone Cages. However, you are a Sonic. You won’t get Liquefy until level 38 or an AoE damage attack until 41. Sure Stone Cages pairs nicely with Stalagmites, but it can definitely wait until level 22 or so and you won’t miss it.

You will miss Stone Prison. Having the ability to immobilize one villain without aggravating an entire spawn is a very useful talent. In addition, having a power that recharges every 4 seconds, uses little endurance, and can stack quickly to give you containment and immobilize magnitude makes for a very useful tool indeed, especially in those moments when you’re forced to solo. This might happen to you: your entire team might leave your Positron TF 5 defeat all missions from the end and, at level 14, you’ll be forced to solo the rest. No I’m not bitter… that much. If Fossilize is your hammer, Stone Prison is how you hold the nail. Take it early and love it.

Not only will it immobilize, it too has a -20% defense penalty to your victim. It nullifies knockback, but it will neuter knockdown too. Do not use it on top of things like Earthquake or Ice Slick unless your target is also held or soon-to-be held. Wait, there’s more! It drops fliers, which makes it a very useful in combination with Fossilize.



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Let the anal-retentive questioning begin!

Isn't it common for immobilizes to only negate KB/KD for the first ten seconds after it was applied? Do the immobilizes in Earth Control differ from others in that respect (I'm assuming not). Just a minor side-note.

I've only given your guide a very brief skim, but my initial impression is very positive- I like the snippets I've read so far, and I will read it more thoroughly and come up with some better comments later.

One thing I wanted to mention, however, is that Earth Control is a power set I have studiously ignored because it had a tendency to make my sad grandma video card (a Radeon 9200...please, don't stare at me...) wheeze and cough up blood. For me, it wasn't Earth Control, it was Earth Control at 5-9 FPS. Now that I have a new video card (a "oh-why-are-you-asking-me-something-I-don't-know-or-care-about-I just know-I-researched-it-and-it's-better" card), Earth Control is going to be my first test subject.

Tee-hee!

I'd like to offer my contrary opinion that numbers make a better guide.

Here are some numbers I would like to offer-

Debuffs for the Sonic Blast are as follows:
Defender- 20%
Corruptor - 15%
Blaster- 12.5%

I don't like comparing Shriek to the Power Bolt for one simple reason: in addition to the damage, you get a Res debuff. For all the sick damage Total Focus will do alone, after your attack chain of Shriek, Scream, and Shout, your opponent will take 37.5% more damage from Total Focus. That takes it from NIIIICE! to ZOMG!

The Res debuffs last a rather short amount of time, varying by power. I've had a hard time seeing exactly how long, but Shriek and Scream are only about 5-6 seconds apiece. Howl and Screech are the longest lasting debuffs- about 10-11 seconds apiece.

::updates::
Here are exact numbers, source being iakona

Sonic Blast]
Shriek :: 5 sec
Scream :: 7 sec
Howl :: 8 sec
Shout :: 10 sec
Screech :: 12 sec
Dreadful Wail :: 20 sec


I think it would be fair to note in any Sonic guide that Sonic tends to have long animation times when compared to most other Blaster sets. For this reason, many people assume that Sonic is less accurate: when you sit for a couple seconds looking at a "MISS", it looms larger in your mind. Before anybody brings up the myth of an accuracy penalty (and someone will...), I'm nipping it in the bud. Being planted for a long animation time is a drawback for PvPers. Since I'm not a PvPer, I don't give a rip, but it's good info to provide them, I think.

The one exception to long animation times is Dreadful Wail. I believe nofuture.org (sic?- I can't remember the source) has timed it at 1.97 seconds. After that number was quoted to me, I eyeballed it on my level 39 Sonic/Elec and think it is even shorter- almost a "click-boom" Nuke. Furthermore, it can disorient anything it hits (I don't know the disorient magnitude, though- I will have to pay specific attention to see if it can disorient lieutenants/bosses in the future). These two facts make Dreadful Wail perhaps the best of the nukes, with possible exceptions being the Archery and Assault Rifle nukes which come up more often and don't completely drain Endurance and stop Recovery for 10 seconds.

Another note- the upcoming patch will extend the range of Shout from 20' to 40'. That is important info for any guide, I believe.

Lastly, for those curious about damage types, Sonic attacks are 50/50 Energy/Smashing.

PS: Sonic/Elec is awesome, for the person who asked. I have to respec mine so I can see how well the Thunder Clap/Screech disorients stack.

Oh people could be yearning for something other than the tired old MMO dynamic that doesn't fit the comic superhero milieu very well at all. There's a new Superman game coming out where Superman doesn't have health or energy bars, but the city of Metropolis does. Superman cannot be defeated, but players can lose the game if Metropolis takes too much damage.

That's superhero-like. CoX's tired MMO formula comes from the old swords & sorcery trope that dates back to Dungeons and Dragons.

A solution does not have to be what the Superman game envisioned, but a solution that better fits the superhero source genre would have been apropos. Something will always feel "off" about this game, and sometimes people flail a little wildly in trying to put their fingers on it.

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Dreadful Wail in the sonic set.

Edit: Oh I thought you meant things that made the *mobs* disoriented :P

Just goes to show how few people play sonic that no one corrected me yet on a gamer forum, a place known for people being all-too-eager to correct you.


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What you didn't see was me burning you in effigy.

Lest you think we're getting nice around here.

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DW does bring up the interesting point, though, that some nukes seem better designed to be alpha strike weapons, because they have disabling effects (what's the point of disabling a dead target) which would be useful if you could continue to attack the remaining targets. If I were designing the nukes, because I like diversity, I would strongly consider making two, possibly three types:

Type 1: Blizzard, Dreadful Wail, Thunderous Blast

Design: designed to do heavy damage (basically as now) and incapacitate in some fashion the targets; the crash does not crash endurance to zero, it just stops recovery. This allows follow up attacks to eliminate remaining targets.

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I wrote the activation time while I was at work, but I'll check it out again now that I'm home and am downloading the patch. It may indeed be 1.97 seconds- I haven't played my level 39 Sonic/Elec for about 3 weeks now. It just seemed to be pretty much a click-boom power from what I recall.

I can certainly try to post a demo, if you like (I should learn how to do such things anyway- I know it's not hard), or provide anything else I can regarding Dreadful Wail if you would like to know anything about it. Indeed, I could meet you in-game and show it to you, but I'm on Liberty server if that's any problem at all.

I have three blasters at nuke level- Energy, Ice and Sonic, and so far the Sonic seems to have the best nuke, but my Ice is only 32 so I'm comparing a fully-slotted nuke with a one-slotted nuke so it's not yet a fair comparison.

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If they were:

1. Really fast, so you could use them in an emergency




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Just out of curiousity, do you feel that Dreadful Wail is well-designed then, given its one-second activation time?

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A new twist to add to this thread, which explains the results seen by Dersk against Eochai: the inherent taunt of Pool Powers (Air Superiority, Kick, etc.) works on all critters for tankers. Brutes do not get any inherent taunt from these powers.

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Amazing. Have we moved into City of Absurdism? Did Beckett or Ionescu join the dev team and nobody told me?

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Re: Gauntlet doesn't work anymore on (some?) AVs
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It has been this way for a loooooong time, it's nothing new. Certain levels of enemies are simply too smart to fall for the old "I hit you, so now you hate me" level of taunt.

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*But* MOST of the AI in the game *is* stupid enough to fall for the "I hit you, so now you hate me" level of taunt. So enjoy the stupid AI through 90% of the game.

*And* instead of being stupid enough to fall for the "I hit you, so now you hate me" level of taunt, AV's instead are stupid enough to fall for the "I pointed at you and said 'aha!', so now you hate me" level of taunt. Yes, quintessential CoH fix.

Wait....I was trying to find the silver lining.

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Let's be real honest - when is ANY particular AT needed given a team of competent players?

Seriously - are we asking too much that there be situations when a given AT is required or needed?

It's one thing to have an AT desireable, another to have it needed.

Personally, when taking down an AV, I have, and still do, prefer to have a Tank around. I feel it's just safer that way.

-- War

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So the new team role for Tanks is to be a placebo?

Can I switch Gauntlet out for "Warm Fuzzy", then?

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I just rechecked this. It looks like Brute taunt auras (invincibility, mud pots) are exempt from this restriction. The inherent taunt of those powers apparently is set to work on all NPCs, but the Tanker equivalents do not.

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Well, I hope your "source" works both ways and gets that problem to a Dev.

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Indirectly, it did.

No comments on the gauntlet issue at the moment -- but I am reading the threads and taking notes.

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Thank you, _Castle_.

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I don't mean to be confrontational, but for the past year have any of you found that a balanced team was unable to take down an AV? Have you felt that your tank was useful on AV teams for the past year?

Personally, I can't think of a time in the past year when a tank wasn't welcomed on an AV team. I completed an AV-a-thon run to 50 with my controller a few months ago, and every time we had a tank on the team, that tank made a huge difference in the survival of the other team members.

I'm not saying the change is a good thing, but if we've been living with it for the past year, it certainly isn't game breaking.

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Assuming, as I do, that there is a middle ground between "game breaking" and "inconsequential", I find the point that this isn't "game breaking" to be...inconsequential. In the same way Defense improves exponentially as it nears cap, the little secret nerflets that the devs apply to Tanks- whose rapidly diminishing raison d'etre is already threadbare- also loom bigger and bigger until utter obsolesence of the AT. More and more people are giving up on this AT in general, people who used to post here and contribute a lot to this forum, because what remains of Tanks is just too meager for them. That being the case, this nerf is not "game breaking", but still bears criticism.

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I vote we rename the Tanker AT "Regen"

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Nah...my vote is for "Reneged"

For what it is worth...

I took the spreadsheet and did a number of things to it to wring out some info. My methodology might be so flawed that the info isn't terribly valid, but I think what I found was interesting, at least.

What I did was that I sorted by energy types. I started sorting from greatest (most resisted) to least (least resisted). Then I clipped out anything with a damage modifier of =/< .80 (indicating 20+ Res) for each damage type, and tallied them up.

I did the opposite to determine damage susceptibility, but instead of using the 20% number, I chose 10% (modifier of =/> 1.10). I tallied these up as well. Results were surprising.

One big caveat- I am working off a version of the spreadsheet over a month old. That was dumb. I saw the spreadsheet on my desktop and just started playing with the numbers. Had I known I was actually going to try to get into out of it, I would have started with the newest spreadsheet.

Heres what I got:

Most Resisted Damage Types:

# of listed mobs with Resistance of 20+%, by damage type, from greatest to least:

Lethal- 235 mobs with 20+ Res
Smashing- 222 mobs
Psionic- 161 mobs
Toxic- 151 mobs
Cold- 131 mobs
Energy- 128 mobs
Negative- 106
Fire- 99

# of listed mobs with Susceptibility of 10+%, by damage type, from greatest to least:

Energy - 90
Psionic- 88
Negative- 82
Cold- 70
Smashing- 50
Fire- 43
Lethal- 35
Toxic- ?? nothing listed as being susceptible

Of course, I'm curious that nothing appears to take more than base damage from Toxic, at least per the spreadsheet at the time I analysed it.

Energy appears to be the winner overall- though around a third more mobs are resistant to Energy than fire, more than twice the mobs who have Fire vulnerability have Energy vulnerability.

This was just a little bit of fun, take it with as much of a grain- or block- of salt as you like.

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Ok then, it only remains to find out if 2 20% damage resistance debuffs are on something, does it take 40% more damage or 44%?

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Not sure what your thinking behind the 44% figure is, but TopDoc is right- it is a 40% increase in damage.

However,

Damage buffs are a % increase in base damage (base damage without enhancement or other buffs).

Res debuffs are a % increase in GROSS damage (base damage with enhancements and buffs)

If you had a power with no enhancements and you had no other buffs, the damage buff and the res debuff would do equal damage.

Once you add enhancements and other damage buffs, Res Debuffs start to outstrip damage buffs.