Brutes are not tanks but.. on redside no other at can comeclose to holding the aggro i have been on teams with heroes in RWZ an on the ITF an my brute takes alpha every time an is always the last one standing ( Shango lvl 50 Elc/sheild brute )
Yes, but that is a bit beside the point. If you build a tanker and build him as tankish as he can be you are not wasting as much as when you do the same with a brute who are more a mixed purpose AT. Plus, tankers are still the better tanks and with co-op zones in the game and GR on the horizon I would see no sense in creating a tank-brute now. If somebody does he is absolutely welcome to do whatever makes him happy, however.
I agree wholeheartedly with Deth when he says that granite brutes give him a sad face. In villain teams you usually do not need a "real" tank, so, when I invite a brute and he turns out to be a granite I get considerably less damage than I bargained for and more survivability than necessary in a semi-decent villain team.
Even worse are those granite guys who can not even tank as their inherent debuffs make them even worse at keeping "accidental aggro". So, at the end of the day we have somebody who contributes quite mediocre damage, does not care about any survivability but his own and then makes a big fuzz about him being the last man standing. Utterly useless and outright annoying.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
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Hardly a square peg in a round hole. They both get taunt and taunt auras. So both tanks and brutes get tauntin in primary and secondary. They just hold agro for different reasons. One because he is a silly hero, the other because he wants to build fury and smash harder.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
yeah, this has been stated, was just reinforcing the point that Brutes are not Tankers. He was asking if /Stone was stronger than some of the "weaker" Tanker sets.
What I have been trying to do is point out that he is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. |
Although a smart brute would like to keep squishies alive in addition to keeping all that wonderful agro for fury building. Squishies give buffs, and debuffs. Meaning mobs go down faster.
So its not even close to a square peg in a round hole. More like a blue colored round peg versus a red colored one. Both fit in the hole. The red one just lookes better doin it.
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To get similar survivability in a brute compared to a tank costs a pretty fair amount of infamy, more than most are willing to put into a toon. This is to get the toon up to where it can absorb the same kind of alpha a Tank can without breaking a sweat. Also, a good tank is the last man standing, the team just augments his survivability. A brute, on the otherhand, is going to go down like the titanic if he jumps into certain groups without the team to back him up. |
Originally Posted by GuessWhosBack
Hardly a square peg in a round hole. They both get taunt and taunt auras. So both tanks and brutes get tauntin in primary and secondary. They just hold agro for different reasons. One because he is a silly hero, the other because he wants to build fury and smash harder.
Although a smart brute would like to keep squishies alive in addition to keeping all that wonderful agro for fury building. Squishies give buffs, and debuffs. Meaning mobs go down faster. So its not even close to a square peg in a round hole. More like a blue colored round peg versus a red colored one. Both fit in the hole. The red one just lookes better doin it. |
Brutes put out a TON more damage than tanks do. No amount of influence will change that.
Just saying because brutes are "tanks" because they can take an alpha and have taunt is like slapping a spoiler on a stock Mustang and calling it a race car.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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Tanks job isnt to be the last man standing, its to protect the team by controlling agro so they dont become the last toon standing. Same with a brute. I dont wanna sit there foot stomping in power surge at full fury for 3 minutes after team has died. I wanna absorb that alpha, get full fury asap and start moving mob to mob. By controlling alpha I let doms and trollers do their thing. Same with a tanker, by controlling alpha I let trollers, fenders and blasters do their thing. |
Originally Posted by _Deth_
To get similar survivability in a brute compared to a tank costs a pretty fair amount of infamy, more than most are willing to put into a toon. This is to get the toon up to where it can absorb the same kind of alpha a Tank can without breaking a sweat. Also, a good tank is the last man standing, the team just augments his survivability. A brute, on the otherhand, is going to go down like the titanic if he jumps into certain groups without the team to back him up.
Brutes put out a TON more damage than tanks do. No amount of influence will change that. Just saying because brutes are "tanks" because they can take an alpha and have taunt is like slapping a spoiler on a stock Mustang and calling it a race car. |
Im glad you dont take taunt or bother with agro control on your brutes. Veterans like you, and new players that dont bother... Just make me look good when I pug
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Bring your Granite Tank up against my SS/Invuln in Arena I'll show you tough |
Originally Posted by Atheism
My tanks don't have low damage, thank you. I'll still be rolling tanks after GR hits because tanks are what brutes are not, tough.
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I guess I was just thinking about the idea from a theoretical standpoint. I know that brutes are not straight up tankers, but they are able to tank if equipped correctly. It is kind of like WoW pre burning crusade and especially pre- lich king. Paladins, Druids, Deathknights, and Warriors can all tank. Some were better for certain things, others were not as good. Now they have made them all equal, but back in the day you could still tank with a non-warrior, but you had to find creative ways to do it.
So I was looking at the Granite Brute and saw that the Granite Armor levels were not much different, 37.5% to 50%. Add in Stone Skin and Tough/Weave (for the brute) it may not be that bad. I know this is just resistances, but I as just wondering from a % standpoint how it would look. I also noticed that some tankers do not have the kind of resistances that a stone brute would have (if I am reading the info stuff correctly in the game).
The plus side to all of this would be tanking with lots more dps (if it can be done). If GR does step up some of the difficulty, it would be a perfect opportunity for Brute tanks. The extra dps will help a lot to down the bosses that much faster. Again, thinking back to WoW since I played it for a long time. My DK tank could push 2.8k dps in Ulduar. Our guild would let new people come if they could hit 3k, so being the MT and doing that kind of dps really does help.
I know this doesn't cover all of it, as threat generation is an important part of tanking as well. So hopefully the discussion continues...
Thanks again to all the have replied. I really am enjoying the game and I find that the people on this message board are friendly, mature, and really well informed.
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That is where you are mistaken, it is NOT a brutes job to protect the team. It is a brutes job to kill stuff, and gaining as much aggro as it can handle makes that job easier. Pulling aggro off a squishie is beneficial, but not part of the job description.|
Originally Posted by GuessWhosBack
Tanks job isnt to be the last man standing, its to protect the team by controlling agro so they dont become the last toon standing. Same with a brute. I dont wanna sit there foot stomping in power surge at full fury for 3 minutes after team has died. I wanna absorb that alpha, get full fury asap and start moving mob to mob. By controlling alpha I let doms and trollers do their thing. Same with a tanker, by controlling alpha I let trollers, fenders and blasters do their thing.
Im glad you dont take taunt or bother with agro control on your brutes. Veterans like you, and new players that dont bother... Just make me look good when I pug |
Tankers are made to protect the team, and get better defenses to do just that. When I said a tank should always be the last man standing, I meant just that. A tank cannot protect anyone when he is dead. If everything goes south, the tank may or may not be able to save the situation, but he better live through it. And god forbid the tank goes down if someone rezes, or has just run back.
And where did I ever say that I don't take taunt on my brutes, some I do, some I don't. As far as looking good when pugging, I have yet to have anyone say I was a bad brute or a bad tank.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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You're a bad brute or a bad tank.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
And where did I ever say that I don't take taunt on my brutes, some I do, some I don't. As far as looking good when pugging, I have yet to have anyone say I was a bad brute or a bad tank.
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I never take taunt on my brutes. I've never had it be a particularly big deal. It turns out that constantly cycling massive AOE attacks keeps enemies on you as a brute. How does this work? No one knows.
I think I've had one person, ever, look at me at the beginning of a pug and comment how it was odd that I didn't have taunt. I was the only brute on a boss farm. Sometimes I'd miss aggro on a single enemy, but then I'd just shoot another AOE. No one died or came close, of course.
After a few groups I looked at his build and noticed he was a crab spider. He did not have his defensive leadership toggle or venom grenade. Maybe it's hypocritical to say, since I don't get taunt and all, but those seem like major omissions in a Crab build. I don't remember, but he either got replaced with a storm corruptor or I just left the slot in the group empty.
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Heh. I sorta do |
Originally Posted by GuessWhosBack
Tanks job isnt to be the last man standing, its to protect the team by controlling agro so they dont become the last toon standing. Same with a brute. I dont wanna sit there foot stomping in power surge at full fury for 3 minutes after team has died.
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My Brutes job is to soak up aggro, but only for the fury it builds me. I've Taunt on one because I've no AOEs and I want my bar nice and high.
As for Alphas if it's one that I know my Brute won't survive (most likely on my Stone/Fire) then it's time for the MMs to send in the pets (or Fearsome Stare them with BG mode on & summon Fluffy into the middle of them or whatever). My MM is much stronger at absorbing alphas than my Brutes (usually at the cost of a zombie, but with the gain of a Spirit). Done right all I'll lose to an alpha is a single zombie. If there's a Domi on the team he can then finish them off in terms of Control and the heavy hitters can then run in afterwards and fight a bunch of nicely Controlled, Feared and Debuffed enemies. That's the nice thing about Villains (and heroes to a lesser extent). You can split the traditional Tanking role between a few people on the team depending on the ATs and sets they have if you feel like it.
My brutes job is take the alpha, build fury and kill stuff, not tank.
Thats how i choose to play.
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So you are saying that Deth is a bad brute for taking taunt on some alts? I hardly find that 1 power selection like taunt can make or break any set up. It is a choice of playstyle or concept, but I have seen poor tanks with taunt and poor tanks without taunt. I have seen great brutes with it, and great brutes without it. Just because you have it doesn't mean you intend to tank as a brute.|
Originally Posted by Kepaaaaaaaaaaaaa
You're a bad brute or a bad tank.
I never take taunt on my brutes. I've never had it be a particularly big deal. It turns out that constantly cycling massive AOE attacks keeps enemies on you as a brute. How does this work? No one knows. I think I've had one person, ever, look at me at the beginning of a pug and comment how it was odd that I didn't have taunt. I was the only brute on a boss farm. Sometimes I'd miss aggro on a single enemy, but then I'd just shoot another AOE. No one died or came close, of course. After a few groups I looked at his build and noticed he was a crab spider. He did not have his defensive leadership toggle or venom grenade. Maybe it's hypocritical to say, since I don't get taunt and all, but those seem like major omissions in a Crab build. I don't remember, but he either got replaced with a storm corruptor or I just left the slot in the group empty. |
I think this discussion is becoming fairly circular and repetitive. (just like the end of that sentence... lol)
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
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Originally Posted by magikwand
So you are saying that Deth is a bad brute for taking taunt on some alts? I hardly find that 1 power selection like taunt can make or break any set up. It is a choice of playstyle or concept, but I have seen poor tanks with taunt and poor tanks without taunt. I have seen great brutes with it, and great brutes without it. Just because you have it doesn't mean you intend to tank as a brute.
I think this discussion is becoming fairly circular and repetitive. (just like the end of that sentence... lol) |
No, I was saying Deth was a bad brute for NOT taking taunt on some alts This was after he replied to someone that claimed that not taking taunt lessens you as a brute. And then I immediately told a story about how I was questioned ingame for not taking taunt.
I specifically called Deth a bad brute because he said that no one had called him a bad brute or tank. Well, I just did. So much for his streak!
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The difference between 37.5% and 50% base res is very large. That means slotted a Brute has 58.5% and a Tanker has 78%. That translates to the Brute taking 88.6% more damage. Add in Stone Skin and the Brute has 70.2% s/l, the Tank can hit 90%. That translates to about 3x as much damage. (Yes, the Brute can add Tough and hit 87.75% res.)|
Originally Posted by callador
So I was looking at the Granite Brute and saw that the Granite Armor levels were not much different, 37.5% to 50%. Add in Stone Skin and Tough/Weave (for the brute) it may not be that bad. I know this is just resistances, but I as just wondering from a % standpoint how it would look. I also noticed that some tankers do not have the kind of resistances that a stone brute would have (if I am reading the info stuff correctly in the game).
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That is only part of the story, as it doesn't even count the lower def, lower base hp (for the regen aspect of Rooted) or the smaller +maxhp/heal of EE, either.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Granite Brutes are squishy, but they aren't Granite Tanks. The gap gets closer and closer the more IOs you invest in them, however.
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Seriously? A Granite? I'm going to guess your brute is pretty squishy if you need to fight a Granite tank.
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Originally Posted by TrancEnding
Bring your Granite Tank up against my SS/Invuln in Arena I'll show you tough
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Pokin fun at the fact that Granite Tanks are pitiful in PvP (one time you can say your tanker isn't "tough". My Brute is far from squishy as its IO'd to the hilt.
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Originally Posted by Atheism
Seriously? A Granite? I'm going to guess your brute is pretty squishy if you need to fight a Granite tank.
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IMO:
Brutes > Tanks. Period.
My rationalizing? Fury and the beauty of SMASH! Once you go Brute, you'll never go back to tank. 
That's not debt, those are my "fury bonus points"--Stahlkopf
MOST amazing Brute engineer goes to: Ultrawatt. His SS/Fire farm build is SMASH!
Congrats to Black Assassin! Won 100,000,000 INF for building most survivable NRG/NRG Blaster
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First 50: Tank|
Originally Posted by Tourettes
Once you go Brute, you'll never go back to tank.
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2nd 50: Brute
Currently playing: Tank
Well, that was quick.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
First 50: Tank
2nd 50: Brute Currently playing: Tank Well, that was quick. |
Yup. Those that like the tank playstyle will continue to play tanks. I, otoh, have deleted every tank I've played.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Only brutes I usually take taunt on are AoE light. One of the builds on my SM/WP comes to mind directly. If I have room for it I will take it for set bonuses, and almost never use it. Funny thing is, I am the same way with my tanks. Some I take taunt on, some I don't, and I never have issues holding aggro. |
Originally Posted by Kepaaaaaaaaaaaaa
No, I was saying Deth was a bad brute for NOT taking taunt on some alts This was after he replied to someone that claimed that not taking taunt lessens you as a brute. And then I immediately told a story about how I was questioned ingame for not taking taunt.
I specifically called Deth a bad brute because he said that no one had called him a bad brute or tank. Well, I just did. So much for his streak! |
And you didn't hurt the streak, as I have never pugged with ya! ;D
as for which is better, I enjoy both. currently I am rockin the brutes, may go back to level my SD and future ElA tanks after I get me a claws brute up. Gotta mix things up a bit, and seeing how I get bored with everything but tanks and brutes quickly.............
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
I view taunt on brutes the same way I view confront on scrappers: Useless.
If I need to taunt something, I'll hop over and punch it in the face.
Be well, people of CoH.
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What does a tanker being tougher than a brute in pve have to do with a Granite pvping?
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Originally Posted by TrancEnding
Pokin fun at the fact that Granite Tanks are pitiful in PvP (one time you can say your tanker isn't "tough". My Brute is far from squishy as its IO'd to the hilt.
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Thanks for the info. I agree that you can't compare a granite tank to granite brute, but since one could get up to 87.75% that is still better than some tankers it seems. I know some of the sets are more defense based, but a granite brute seems like it could be pretty beefy |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
The difference between 37.5% and 50% base res is very large. That means slotted a Brute has 58.5% and a Tanker has 78%. That translates to the Brute taking 88.6% more damage. Add in Stone Skin and the Brute has 70.2% s/l, the Tank can hit 90%. That translates to about 3x as much damage. (Yes, the Brute can add Tough and hit 87.75% res.)
That is only part of the story, as it doesn't even count the lower def, lower base hp (for the regen aspect of Rooted) or the smaller +maxhp/heal of EE, either. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Granite Brutes are squishy, but they aren't Granite Tanks. The gap gets closer and closer the more IOs you invest in them, however. |
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As a friend pounted out this game is like a big game of rock/paper/scissors.
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Originally Posted by Atheism
What does a tanker being tougher than a brute in pve have to do with a Granite pvping?
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yeah, this has been stated, was just reinforcing the point that Brutes are not Tankers. He was asking if /Stone was stronger than some of the "weaker" Tanker sets.
What I have been trying to do is point out that he is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.