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Exactly.
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The thing is, the brute IS tanking in that scenario, just not in the traditional tanker "meat shield" fashion. Just because the mechanics are different, in a team setting, the roles are the same. Brutes are not tanks, this is true enough, and the way they play is different if played well. A tank, in a group, has one job, and that is to get the attention of all mobs and keep it on him, damage is secondary. Brutes grab the attention of the mobs by putting out tons of damage. Too many people compare brutes to scrappers, and too many try to make them tanks. The reality is they are almost dead in between, and if played well, can be both at the same time. |
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One last bit of advice: it takes a while for any tanker's defenses to mature. If you try handling the full aggro for a team of 8 when you're level 10, you're going to get killed pretty fast. But by the time you're in your mid- to late-20s, you'll be able to especially if you have a bit of support. |
Originally Posted by callador
I ended up making a tanker named Wee Justice. I went willpower and dark for my sets. My damage is much lower than the brute, so hopefully that will pick up a little bit. I just hit level 10 and have been soloing the player made missions just to try something new.
Thanks again for all the advice! |
Oh and since you have experience in other MMOs, don't make the mistake of thinking support has to be in the form of healers. CoH has defenders that have heal powers, but there are many defender and controller powersets that have no heals that will do wonders for team survivability.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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We think similarly. I can't bring myself to roll a stone armored toon for several reasons, and the dependence on SB is one of them. Of course, looking like a big pile of poo is also at the top of the list.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
I think you mistook what my point was. When on a team, the team has to act as a unit, or will essentially it will just be a waste of everyone's time and effort. If you don't want to contribute to a group, go solo, it's that simple. I am not saying that everyone should build their toons and play in a fashion that they are dependent on others, I hate stone armor tanks and brutes specifically for that reason. At the same time, if I am in a group, and I jump into a large number of mobs and DON'T get backup from them, I am usually pretty annoyed at that point, and if it becomes the norm with the group I leave. Being self-sufficient is all well and good, but there are situations where all the self sufficiency in the world amounts to jack.
The roommate example is a good one. If I could afford to pay the rent on my own, I wouldn't need the roommate in the first place. If my roommate can't make the rent, I get a new one. If you are in that situation, then you are on a crappy team. A brute, with proper support, is more than able to tank. Those are the key words, and what seperates brutes from tanks. As a brute, I run at the biggest meanest thing in the group, I hold its aggro, and will generally grab the rest of the aggro in the process. I don't do this to protect the team, I do this to maximize my fury as quickly as possible. I generally only grab strays if they are really stomping on someone. My survivability and my tactics make me the tank by default, and if the team is worth a crap it works out swimmingly. My job is to kill the biggest and nastiest of the mobs face to face, with his eyes on me. The beauty of this, is that villains all have damage as their primary set, with the exception of Doms, and even their mechanics provide for a ton of damage. All the weaker mobs, in a team of 8, should be decimated by the rest of the team, aggro or no aggro. It's funny how I can tank on boss missions with my brute, without actually tanking. I run in swinging, and all I do is attack. I might throw a taunt here and there so I don't have to chase things. I don't run around taunting mobs off of squishies unless they are in serious trouble. Keeping the squishies alive usually keeps my damage bonuses higher, so I can hit harder and crush better. Wait, if i "protect teh squishies" I get a benefit of being able to kill better, funny how that works. This sums it up beautifully. The thing is, the brute IS tanking in that scenario, just not in the traditional tanker "meat shield" fashion. Just because the mechanics are different, in a team setting, the roles are the same. Brutes are not tanks, this is true enough, and the way they play is different if played well. A tank, in a group, has one job, and that is to get the attention of all mobs and keep it on him, damage is secondary. Brutes grab the attention of the mobs by putting out tons of damage. Too many people compare brutes to scrappers, and too many try to make them tanks. The reality is they are almost dead in between, and if played well, can be both at the same time. |
On the other hand, I have a friend with a stone brute that has a lot invested into movement bonuses, and her run speed (Something like +70%) is astounding. She literally runs circles around me while in granite.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
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Especially on anything Willpower. With the regeneration you get from Rise to the Challenge and layered combination of middling levels of defense and resistance, any +def or +res buff is better than having a healer along. Who needs a heal when you're regenerating 110+ hp/sec?
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Originally Posted by Sardan
Oh and since you have experience in other MMOs, don't make the mistake of thinking support has to be in the form of healers.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Carnifax put it best. Simply don't assume I'm gonna tank. None of my brutes have taunt and likely never will. Some of my brutes don't have a taunt aura. If the brute tanks, that's great. My problem is when people tell me I should/have to tank because I am a brute. And as said before, any tanking I do is an unfortunate side effect. |
Originally Posted by _Deth_
I think you mistook what my point was. When on a team, the team has to act as a unit, or will essentially it will just be a waste of everyone's time and effort. If you don't want to contribute to a group, go solo, it's that simple. I am not saying that everyone should build their toons and play in a fashion that they are dependent on others, I hate stone armor tanks and brutes specifically for that reason. At the same time, if I am in a group, and I jump into a large number of mobs and DON'T get backup from them, I am usually pretty annoyed at that point, and if it becomes the norm with the group I leave. Being self-sufficient is all well and good, but there are situations where all the self sufficiency in the world amounts to jack.
The roommate example is a good one. If I could afford to pay the rent on my own, I wouldn't need the roommate in the first place. If my roommate can't make the rent, I get a new one. If you are in that situation, then you are on a crappy team. A brute, with proper support, is more than able to tank. Those are the key words, and what seperates brutes from tanks. As a brute, I run at the biggest meanest thing in the group, I hold its aggro, and will generally grab the rest of the aggro in the process. I don't do this to protect the team, I do this to maximize my fury as quickly as possible. I generally only grab strays if they are really stomping on someone. My survivability and my tactics make me the tank by default, and if the team is worth a crap it works out swimmingly. My job is to kill the biggest and nastiest of the mobs face to face, with his eyes on me. The beauty of this, is that villains all have damage as their primary set, with the exception of Doms, and even their mechanics provide for a ton of damage. All the weaker mobs, in a team of 8, should be decimated by the rest of the team, aggro or no aggro. It's funny how I can tank on boss missions with my brute, without actually tanking. I run in swinging, and all I do is attack. I might throw a taunt here and there so I don't have to chase things. I don't run around taunting mobs off of squishies unless they are in serious trouble. Keeping the squishies alive usually keeps my damage bonuses higher, so I can hit harder and crush better. Wait, if i "protect teh squishies" I get a benefit of being able to kill better, funny how that works. This sums it up beautifully. The thing is, the brute IS tanking in that scenario, just not in the traditional tanker "meat shield" fashion. Just because the mechanics are different, in a team setting, the roles are the same. Brutes are not tanks, this is true enough, and the way they play is different if played well. A tank, in a group, has one job, and that is to get the attention of all mobs and keep it on him, damage is secondary. Brutes grab the attention of the mobs by putting out tons of damage. Too many people compare brutes to scrappers, and too many try to make them tanks. The reality is they are almost dead in between, and if played well, can be both at the same time. |
Some play their brutes as tanks. Some as scrappers. Some as something else. I think it just does everyone a good service to not assume they'll play X way.
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Anyone that says you have to tank as a brute misunderstands the mechanics. If people stopped trying to force a square peg into a round hole, i.e., saying brutes are tanks/scrappers, it wouldn't be an issue. As I have stated, aggro management is part of what a brute is, whether people like it or not. Whether it is active or passive is up to the playstyle of the person playing the brute. |
Originally Posted by Toony
Carnifax put it best. Simply don't assume I'm gonna tank. None of my brutes have taunt and likely never will. Some of my brutes don't have a taunt aura. If the brute tanks, that's great. My problem is when people tell me I should/have to tank because I am a brute. And as said before, any tanking I do is an unfortunate side effect.
Some play their brutes as tanks. Some as scrappers. Some as something else. I think it just does everyone a good service to not assume they'll play X way. |
I am just wondering what defense set you can use and not have a taunt aura without severely impairing yourself, as it is a secondary effect in a major aura power in each set.
I can possibly see not having the taunt auras on DA, FA, ElA, Stone and SD without severely compromising survivability, but then you are gimping your damage output.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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Still can't jump tho.
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Originally Posted by magikwand
We think similarly. I can't bring myself to roll a stone armored toon for several reasons, and the dependence on SB is one of them. Of course, looking like a big pile of poo is also at the top of the list.
On the other hand, I have a friend with a stone brute that has a lot invested into movement bonuses, and her run speed (Something like +70%) is astounding. She literally runs circles around me while in granite. |
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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My DA doesn't have death shroud. I saw no point in piling on more end problems on an already end heavy set for abit more damage.
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
Anyone that says you have to tank as a brute misunderstands the mechanics. If people stopped trying to force a square peg into a round hole, i.e., saying brutes are tanks/scrappers, it wouldn't be an issue. As I have stated, aggro management is part of what a brute is, whether people like it or not. Whether it is active or passive is up to the playstyle of the person playing the brute.
I am just wondering what defense set you can use and not have a taunt aura without severely impairing yourself, as it is a secondary effect in a major aura power in each set. I can possibly see not having the taunt auras on DA, FA, ElA, Stone and SD without severely compromising survivability, but then you are gimping your damage output. |
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That's just slotting, I dig DS on my DA tank, I hit the boss and let it kill off the minions. Still seriously considering making a DA brute, just not sure what to pair it with. Got a DA stalker as well. There are lots of ways around the end use in the set, hell, on my tank i use Dark Consumption as an attack as I never have end issues, and that is running 10 toggles. |
Originally Posted by Toony
My DA doesn't have death shroud. I saw no point in piling on more end problems on an already end heavy set for abit more damage.
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What is really ironic, you get mad because people expect you to tank on a /DA brute. Meanwhile on my DA tank, half the people when they see I am DA(without looking at info, as it is IO'd to the hilt), immediately either say they need a second tank, or ask if I think I can handle it.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
Oddly enough, Death Shroud has the same DPE as a ST attack...
Death Shroud: 0.2 DS, 1.04 End, 0.192 DPE per target
Beheader: 1 DS, 5.2 End, 0.192 DPE
Whirling Axe: 1 DS, 13 End, 0.077 DPE per target
... so I'm not sure how much end you're really saving, there.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Death Shroud is a must-have. Just run Herostats, it will likely be your major source of damage especially on large teams.
I just want to clarify, I wasn't questioning his choice in not taking it. That is a perfectly reasonable reason to not take it. I was just stating that, in my experience, the end use, if you slot for it, is not bad on it. DS, slotted with 1acc, 3dam, 2endredux, is a lot of damage, and not a lot of end. If he doesn't like it, more power to him.
It's a personal choice, trying to "prove him wrong" is not only counterproductive, but, and i may be wrong, actually a bit insulting.
If I came across as calling Toony wrong for his choice, then I apologize, as that was not my intent.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
If we had infinite slots or heck, more slots, maybe I'd take it. But with my primary being DB (which is fairly end heavy as well, and needs alot of acc for the combos, and needs most of the attacks for the combos) I don't have the available power choice, end, or slots to run death shroud.
In other news I did an ITF last night. We failed. The team leader appointed me as the tank (even though I was 41, said I didn't tank, and we had plenty of level 50 IO'd out scrappers). I mostly just face planted alot.
I don't care if someones Brute plays more like a Tanker or like a Scrapper. If its scared of a few Cimemorans then I am dismayed, Brutes should be fearless.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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This is how I approach the enemies with my SS/WP brute, too. I think there's something direct and undeniable, to the opponents, in having to deal with a raging villain ready to SMASH! On a side note, it's good to know that I'm not alone in this endeavor. There were times when I thought the team I was on figured I was being too reckless. Having confirmation to the contrary is quite nice. |
Originally Posted by _Deth_
As a brute, I run at the biggest meanest thing in the group, I hold its aggro, and will generally grab the rest of the aggro in the process. I don't do this to protect the team, I do this to maximize my fury as quickly as possible. I generally only grab strays if they are really stomping on someone. My survivability and my tactics make me the tank by default, and if the team is worth a crap it works out swimmingly. My job is to kill the biggest and nastiest of the mobs face to face, with his eyes on me.
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
As I have stated, aggro management is part of what a brute is, whether people like it or not. Whether it is active or passive is up to the playstyle of the person playing the brute.
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In summary, this has to be one of the best descriptions I've read/seen on delineating the differences in aggro control between Tankers and Brutes. Well said, sir. I also appreciate the accommodation of differing playstyles in the mechanics that this post represents.
Thank you for posting this, and also for clarifying the points made during this discussion.
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Scared? No. Realize I cannot take an 8 man teams alpha of +2 cimerorans and survive? That's knowing my limits. Especially if the team is now counting on me to somehow tank these things I know I cannot tank without a bunch of buffs. I have no desire to waste my and the teams time.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
I don't care if someones Brute plays more like a Tanker or like a Scrapper. If its scared of a few Cimemorans then I am dismayed, Brutes should be fearless.
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Well forget tanking for Scrappers, they're off the list, any saves by a Brute or Tank should be either out of charity, a mistake or a just so happen. I've been kicked as a Scrapper not waiting for a Brute running into an 8 man teams worth so I wouldn't be one of them expecting you to tank. My scrappers have to be fearless.|
Originally Posted by Toony
Scared? No. Realize I cannot take an 8 man teams alpha of +2 cimerorans and survive? That's knowing my limits. Especially if the team is now counting on me to somehow tank these things I know I cannot tank without a bunch of buffs. I have no desire to waste my and the teams time.
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Your avatar is so funny.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I don't play my Brute like a Scrapper. I play my Scrappers like Brutes. And my Tankers.
It's so hard to get used to not diving directly into the next spawn as the current spawn is almost dead...
I more play my Brutes like Scrankers. Meaning that my mindset is "Damage, damage, damage!" But also I'll save your rear if you're vital to my survival. Doms and Corruptors usually fall into that category. It's not my job to save you, it's just a side effect of Invincibility.
If it's the teams wishes that I Tank, then whatever. I'll tank. Gets my Fury up doesn't it? :P
Seven years of heroism. Seven years of friendships. Seven years of saving the world. Seven years of virtuous selflessness.
You will return, for you are the mighty City of Paragon, the City of Heroes.
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Why are you fighting 8 man spawns of cimerorans without buffs?|
Originally Posted by Toony
Scared? No. Realize I cannot take an 8 man teams alpha of +2 cimerorans and survive? That's knowing my limits. Especially if the team is now counting on me to somehow tank these things I know I cannot tank without a bunch of buffs. I have no desire to waste my and the teams time.
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Put a check by me in the holds agro to build fury group. I rush in, taunt, smash, rinse repeat. Holding agro lets group work better around me, and builds fury faster than no alpha/agro holding ever would. Im at 50% fury by second volley from the mob.
To the OP:
Brutes are actually more akin to Scrappers than Tanks. The "intended" aggro mitigation AT for Villains is actually Masterminds. Villains was built with the intention to even further break down the 'rpg trinity' of tank-heal-dps.
CAN Brutes achieve ridiculous levels of mitigation and survivability? Sure. Its just gonna be harder than building a DPS brute and you may need a team to push you to your caps.
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As was stated already, what was intended and what actually happened are way different. Yes the "intended" aggro mitigation AT was the MM. Was. Past tense. They gave that up a LONG time ago. See, as I have said in this thread a number of times, square peg, round hole. Aggro control was also built into brutes from day one, they were never intended to be tanks tho. |
Originally Posted by MasterJediJared
To the OP:
Brutes are actually more akin to Scrappers than Tanks. The "intended" aggro mitigation AT for Villains is actually Masterminds. Villains was built with the intention to even further break down the 'rpg trinity' of tank-heal-dps. CAN Brutes achieve ridiculous levels of mitigation and survivability? Sure. Its just gonna be harder than building a DPS brute and you may need a team to push you to your caps. |
It is people that think brutes are just villains version of the scrapper, and people that think the brute is just villains version of the tank, that have really screwed up the perception of the brute. Brutes are neither scrappers or tanks, they are brutes. They are also not "more like" one or the other, they are neither, and are both, all at the same time.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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I play my tankers very similar to how I play my brutes as well. Well, at least I did. I pay more attention to the group's survival when I play my tanks now. I do so on my brutes for entirely different reasons. I might actually die on my brute if I just ignore everyone else. What's worse, I won't get all those nifty buffs to my damage, debuffs to their defenses, and all that if THEY die. It's not so much about protecting the team as it is looking after myself, and that is not a bad thing, we are supposed to be villains.
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Originally Posted by Paladin_Musashi
I don't play my Brute like a Scrapper. I play my Scrappers like Brutes. And my Tankers.
It's so hard to get used to not diving directly into the next spawn as the current spawn is almost dead... |
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
Just forget about the whole intention of how an AT is supposed to be played and play it on what fits your playstyle.
Heroside:
Tankers main job is to be an aggro magnet and essentially guard the rest of the group. Survival is their main job. If all goes wrong, they are generally should be the last man standing.
Villainside:
There is no strict tanking AT. The dynamics of Villains is different than the dynamics of Heroes. There was originially no strict healer set either. Playstyles and people trying to make a square peg fit a round hole shaped tanking villainside after CoVs release.
Brutes grab aggro to fuel their damage capacity. Holding aggro and keeping the rest of the team alive by absorbing the brunt of the damage is sort of a side product. They are not tanks, and if the rest of the team doesn't back him up in this regard, then the brute will be one of the first to fall.
Masterminds were originally supposed to be the "tank" class. This is no longer the case, however, a well played mastermind is going to be skilled in aggro control. Masterminds, in the right hands, are more than capable of tanking.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.