Brutes have a lower base for Hit Points, Resistance and Defense but have the same cap as tanks. They can be buffed up to tanker levels but are more comparable to scrappers in my opinion. If you do want to tank with your brute I would recommend either a Stone or a Willpower. Stone lacks mobility and unless you IO slot for Hitpoints a Willpower can be hit hard by a big alpha but most folks I know prefer them over the other options if your working with a limited budget.
"If a system can be exploited, it will be exploited. And if a developer thinks their system cannot be exploited, it'll be exploited like a new actress in her first porn movie." Sanya Weather MMORPG Examiner
Just gonna comment that from my experience that /Stone and /Invuln are only sets to nearly cap max hp due to Dull Pain and Earth's Embrace least on redside.
Takes quite a bit of work to get stats nearly comparable to Tanks that are SO'd. Any set can prob Tank with the help of your teammates and managing your insps.
Welcome to the game, btw.
Brutes start with 75% of Tanker strength in their protection powers, and about 5/6 of Tanker HP, so for most of the game the Tanker leads the Brute in survivability. However, they have the same caps on protection and HP, so with outside buffs and set bonuses they can reach equality. The Brute will lead the Tanker on damage, as Fury can easily grant 100% to 150% bonus damage and the Brute damage bonus cap is an astounding 750% compared to the Tanker's 300%.
As to the role of tanking, it's simply not as important in this game as it is in others. Both Brutes and Tankers have the ability to gather aggro on most foes just by attacking; the Tanker can survive more of the resulting punishment, while the Brute will play a larger role in wiping the enemies out with damage. City of Heroes/Villains doesn't have "end game content" as such. Brutes and Tankers are both generally able to do what tanking is necessary in the high level Task/Strike Forces when properly supported, though the Tanker has a good deal more leeway in this regard. But the real lucrative activity (aside from market gaming) is solo farming - taking on, and taking out, as many enemies as possible as fast as possible to maximize reward drop chances. And in this activity, Brutes - with good survivability and excellent AoE damage potential - excel, though a high-damage Tanker can also do well (and certain Controller builds are famous for farming capability).
Short version: If you want to be the toughest there is, and support a team with aggro management and positioning, but don't care as much about personal damage output, go Tanker. If you want to be pretty tough and a relentless attacker, go Brute. I have both, and I like both, but they aren't interchangeable and shouldn't be thought of as such.
@SPTrashcan
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Brutes can't take as much damage as a tank can, but they can do a lot more damage.
Tanks can take a lot more damage a brute can, but they do less damage.
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In terms of aggro control, potentially indistinguishable. This can cause arguments as you can direct AoE on to the team or off of the team.|
Originally Posted by callador
I am new to COH/COV and had a question about Tankers and Brutes. I am interested in Tanking as I have done that in other games. From what I have been reading, tankers are the "best" tanks. My question is, how far behind the tanker is the brute?
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Originally Posted by callador
If one were to make a tanker and brute with the same powers and enhancement slots, how far behind would the brute be on defense?
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Originally Posted by callador
And while I am new to the game and haven't done any of the end game content, can a brute tank it?
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Originally Posted by callador
Are there any power combinations that work better for tanking? Also remember I am new, so I will not have access to anything too expensive... but it is my hope as an end game style tank I can get that money
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Originally Posted by callador
The only reason I ask is that I like CoV a little more. It is not about being a villian either, it is all about the graphics. CoV graphics just seem much better. Do the two games become comparible later on? I haven't gotten a guy out of the third zone yet.So, the question is: what do you think?
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Tankers can keep people from being defeated, getting defeated isn't some "it happens" thing, it's avoidable. Brutes generally play like Scrappers yet can have great aggro control making the Tanker incapable of making defeats unavoidable. I will end up arguing.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
My 2 bits: Spitting_Trashcan nailed it, while Shannon I think glosses over a few important differences.
My current Brute is Shield Defense. Through massive investment he is soft-capped defensively. But to hit that same level of defense on a tanker requires a fraction of the investment due to the tanker starting off with higher base numbers. So I'd say that the average brute is not as good as the average tank at being able to handle team aggro but that a kitted-out brute usually can, along with being able to solo faster.
You'll also find that CoH teams tend to play a bit differently from CoV teams. On a CoH team the tank is expected to always lead the charge, have Taunt, and control aggro. In CoV, every archetype is a damage dealer and brutes contribute their share but are not typically expected to literally act as tanks and it's much less common for Brutes to have Taunt.
Regarding end game content: as has been pointed out, CoH doesn't currently have much in that department. At the recent San Diego Comicon, the devs participated in a panel discussion in which they said that one of their strategic goals for Going Rogue is to add a serious end game to CoH that will have challenges that make all current high level content "look like a piece of cake" in comparison. I expect tankers to be quite popular when Going Rogue hits.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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My name is magikwand and I approve this post. Well said. |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Brutes start with 75% of Tanker strength in their protection powers, and about 5/6 of Tanker HP, so for most of the game the Tanker leads the Brute in survivability. However, they have the same caps on protection and HP, so with outside buffs and set bonuses they can reach equality. The Brute will lead the Tanker on damage, as Fury can easily grant 100% to 150% bonus damage and the Brute damage bonus cap is an astounding 750% compared to the Tanker's 300%.
As to the role of tanking, it's simply not as important in this game as it is in others. Both Brutes and Tankers have the ability to gather aggro on most foes just by attacking; the Tanker can survive more of the resulting punishment, while the Brute will play a larger role in wiping the enemies out with damage. City of Heroes/Villains doesn't have "end game content" as such. Brutes and Tankers are both generally able to do what tanking is necessary in the high level Task/Strike Forces when properly supported, though the Tanker has a good deal more leeway in this regard. But the real lucrative activity (aside from market gaming) is solo farming - taking on, and taking out, as many enemies as possible as fast as possible to maximize reward drop chances. And in this activity, Brutes - with good survivability and excellent AoE damage potential - excel, though a high-damage Tanker can also do well (and certain Controller builds are famous for farming capability). Short version: If you want to be the toughest there is, and support a team with aggro management and positioning, but don't care as much about personal damage output, go Tanker. If you want to be pretty tough and a relentless attacker, go Brute. I have both, and I like both, but they aren't interchangeable and shouldn't be thought of as such. |
Brutes can either be slightly more durable scrappers or high damage tanks depending on how one builds and invests. The important thing to remember is that every brute may be built differently. Saying that, one should never assume that one has built his/her brute to be the tanking type. Some take taunt, and have more intent on controlling aggro. Others have no taunt and focus more on straight damage. Others can do both well, and etc. Be sure to ask a brute how s/he is built to make sure you know what to expect.
As you may have already experienced, the gameplay of City of Villains is arguably faster paced than Heroes. This has been my experience. The fact that all of the villain ATs are capable of cranking out respectable damage means that each of the 5 classic ATs could be racing to clean up a spawn. My experience on heroes tends to reflect the "wait on the tank" mentality. No one really wants to open up a new spawn unless the tank charges in first. Villains are just more fluid in my experience, and for some reason that makes the game more exciting.
I also prefer CoV though I started in CoH for nearly a full 8 months before switching over. Something about the Rogue Isles just feels more comfortable and exciting than Paragon.
One other side note is that the most important thing to consider is who is sitting in front of the keyboard for any given character. I have seen rad/rad corruptors survive better than tricked out stone tanks before. So make sure you build a list of reliable and intelligent friends that you can call on for TF/SF/whatever. Few things are worse than being sandbagged by players that are overconfident and underskilled.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
Thanks for all the info guys. I think a tanker may be the better choice for me since I don't have all the money to get a tricked out set. It does sound like Brutes can do well given the right slot combinations. So for a first time tank, do you think Willpower is the way to go? From what I have read it seems to have the most Sta regen to help when leveling, or is it better to go for a set like stone?
Hope to see you all around Paragon City!
I have found playing a brute in a tanker role works nicely. Take alpha, throw taunt (the actual taunt power) and your fury/damage goes through the roof. Then start attacking till the foe is dead. Super Strength and Stone are particullary good primaries for damage mitigation. Stone especially can make nearly any secondary handle nearly all the agro they recieve. I cant see a reason to play a tanker in PvE content anymore. Now in PvP this is reversed, there is rarely a reason to play a brute over a tanker unless your a glutton for punishment. Fury needs a fix in PvP.
I recently got into an arguement about brutes. Apparently I am supposed to be a tank, should be tanking, and if I don't want to, I'm not doing my job. Which is odd as I always thought my job was SMASH! Not "protect teh squishiez!"
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Willpower is a great first armor set. It's strong out of the box without needing a ton of investment and has toggles rather than click-type powers so you can just turn it on and not have to worry about micro-managing it. |
Originally Posted by callador
Thanks for all the info guys. I think a tanker may be the better choice for me since I don't have all the money to get a tricked out set. It does sound like Brutes can do well given the right slot combinations. So for a first time tank, do you think Willpower is the way to go? From what I have read it seems to have the most Sta regen to help when leveling, or is it better to go for a set like stone?
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I'd avoid Stone for your first tank or brute. It is without doubt off the charts in terms of survivability once you get Granite, but it comes with significant movement, recharge, and damage penalties. Plus virtually all Stone tankers end up taking Teleport as their travel power, which is the trickiest of the travel powers to use.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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Whoever told you that is wrong. The beauty of brutes is that some are more tankish and some are more scrapperish and some straddle the line nicely. If you choose to play your brute and not concern yourself with squishies, that is your business. There shouldn't be any discussion. If you choose to toss around taunt and keep aggro off of your teammates, that is also fine. I think people should never bite off more aggro than they can handle- regardless of AT. If you depend on someone else to keep you safe or heal you or buff you, you aren't strong.
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Originally Posted by Toony
I recently got into an arguement about brutes. Apparently I am supposed to be a tank, should be tanking, and if I don't want to, I'm not doing my job. Which is odd as I always thought my job was SMASH! Not "protect teh squishiez!"
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Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
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Not to play devil's advocate, but seriously, if you are on a team, you DO depend on others, and are expected to play a role. Doesn't make you weak, just the dynamics of the situation. |
Originally Posted by magikwand
Whoever told you that is wrong. The beauty of brutes is that some are more tankish and some are more scrapperish and some straddle the line nicely. If you choose to play your brute and not concern yourself with squishies, that is your business. There shouldn't be any discussion. If you choose to toss around taunt and keep aggro off of your teammates, that is also fine. I think people should never bite off more aggro than they can handle- regardless of AT. If you depend on someone else to keep you safe or heal you or buff you, you aren't strong.
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No, I am not saying all brutes should be tanks, but if you see a teammate getting his tail handed to him, you step in, doesn't matter what AT you are.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
Tankers are just squishy brutes!
tl;dr version of all of those posts.
Both ATs are different. Some powersets better for tanking than others. Try them all and find one you like.
@Mazzo Grave
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
you *******!!!!
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Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
Tankers are just squishy brutes!
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A squishy Brute? Give me a break!
I have a Willpower Tanker, and Brute. The difference in how the Tanker survived while leveling was night and day compared to my Brute. Not everyone chooses powers, a costume, and then begins the game with maxed out IO bonuses.
The Tanker will have better defenses right of the bat, and will always have an easier time keeping those defenses. If you plan to do pick up groups a lot then you will be pretty self contained as far as personal defense goes. The damage can easily be made up by the group.
The Brute will always deal better damage, but will start off a bit squishier. Since you'll do big damage hopefully you can help your team blow through the baddies before they become a problem (this is pretty common for City of Villains). With an infamy, and time investment you can build up defenses.
While the two AT's share powers they do play very different. Especially while you are leveling up. Basically you should make a decision on which aspect you want the most self-containment.
I ended up making a tanker named Wee Justice. I went willpower and dark for my sets. My damage is much lower than the brute, so hopefully that will pick up a little bit. I just hit level 10 and have been soloing the player made missions just to try something new.
Thanks again for all the advice!
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I think, considering your original post, you'll probably be happier as a Tanker as you've played that role in other games.|
Originally Posted by callador
I ended up making a tanker named Wee Justice. I went willpower and dark for my sets. My damage is much lower than the brute, so hopefully that will pick up a little bit. I just hit level 10 and have been soloing the player made missions just to try something new.
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I wouldn't worry too much about your damage output vs. a Brute. As a Tanker, that's not really what groups will be inviting you for and is a secondary consideration, not to mention that the dynamics of CoH groups vs. CoV groups are quite different.
As a Tanker you'll be the anvil to the group's hammer.
Good luck!
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I agree on the last point. If you are on a team, you should definitely help out your team mates. However, I find it problematic to build any particular AT or set with a codependence on other team mates for survival/function. As an example, I have seen plenty of stone tanks and brutes that were useless without a kin. I have also seen ATs of all sorts who could not function without a "healer" with a direct ST heal on team. Emotional codependence is problematic, and I am sure that is an untermed concept for this in-game where people are just hooked on another's powers to help them function.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
Not to play devil's advocate, but seriously, if you are on a team, you DO depend on others, and are expected to play a role. Doesn't make you weak, just the dynamics of the situation.
No, I am not saying all brutes should be tanks, but if you see a teammate getting his tail handed to him, you step in, doesn't matter what AT you are. |
I don't exactly agree with your first point, however. I find it sort of like having a room mate. If you have a room mate, you should expect your room mate to pay his share of the rent every month. However, if your room mate is unable to come up with his share, you should be able to pay the rent on your own without him. At least for one month. Kind of a tough standard to apply to a game, but I find it makes my toons more self sufficient and reliable.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
I simply leave a team or decline to tank if they appoint me as the "tank". I know my brutes limits and unless I have a bunch of buffs on me, I am not going to be leaving that +3 mob of cimerorans set for a team of 8, alive. It'd be a waste of mine and the teams time if they put their hopes on me being able to "tank". Generally, if I wanted to tank I'd be on my tanker.
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For me it depends on the Brute. My Dark/WP? Sure, I'll jump in and taunt them (yes, I have Taunt mostly because I was getting annoyed with other Brutes with AOE damage auras nicking my targets and the lovely Fury they give). Plus I'll taunt any wanderers who attack others on the team and try and drag them to me. But it's mostly for selfish "I wants Fury and better Regen" reasons. Any protection I give or Tanking I inadvertadly do is an unfortunate side effect of my Fury grabbing ways.|
Originally Posted by Toony
I simply leave a team or decline to tank if they appoint me as the "tank". I know my brutes limits and unless I have a bunch of buffs on me, I am not going to be leaving that +3 mob of cimerorans set for a team of 8, alive. It'd be a waste of mine and the teams time if they put their hopes on me being able to "tank". Generally, if I wanted to tank I'd be on my tanker.
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My Stone/Fire would be a bit more selfish though, again I will probably attempt to jump in to the biggest group, take the Alpha and set about them. But that'll be it mostly. I'll be focusing on continuely knocking down and burning the largest number I can, I won't be able to do much about stragglers attacking team mates without pulling the entire bunch with me. Best bet is to do what I do in CoV when playing a squishy. Drag the target to the Brute and hopefully he'll smack it for me and distract it.
That tends to be how I approach teaming with Brutes, don't assume they'll tank, just assume they'll be fighting away. If you are in trouble try pulling the nasty over to the Brute and chances are it'll decide he makes a much more tempting target (obviously I'll buff said Brute / debuff his enemies in the process. He's no use to me if he keels over).
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This.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_EU
Any protection I give or Tanking I inadvertadly do is an unfortunate side effect of my Fury grabbing ways.
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Funny enough this far more often than not does the trick and people actually believe the brute is tanking.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
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Whats the definition of "Tanking" in CoX?
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Originally Posted by Sitriel
This.
Funny enough this far more often than not does the trick and people actually believe the brute is tanking. |
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I think you mistook what my point was. When on a team, the team has to act as a unit, or will essentially it will just be a waste of everyone's time and effort. If you don't want to contribute to a group, go solo, it's that simple. I am not saying that everyone should build their toons and play in a fashion that they are dependent on others, I hate stone armor tanks and brutes specifically for that reason. At the same time, if I am in a group, and I jump into a large number of mobs and DON'T get backup from them, I am usually pretty annoyed at that point, and if it becomes the norm with the group I leave. Being self-sufficient is all well and good, but there are situations where all the self sufficiency in the world amounts to jack. |
Originally Posted by magikwand
I agree on the last point. If you are on a team, you should definitely help out your team mates. However, I find it problematic to build any particular AT or set with a codependence on other team mates for survival/function. As an example, I have seen plenty of stone tanks and brutes that were useless without a kin. I have also seen ATs of all sorts who could not function without a "healer" with a direct ST heal on team. Emotional codependence is problematic, and I am sure that is an untermed concept for this in-game where people are just hooked on another's powers to help them function.
I don't exactly agree with your first point, however. I find it sort of like having a room mate. If you have a room mate, you should expect your room mate to pay his share of the rent every month. However, if your room mate is unable to come up with his share, you should be able to pay the rent on your own without him. At least for one month. Kind of a tough standard to apply to a game, but I find it makes my toons more self sufficient and reliable. |
The roommate example is a good one. If I could afford to pay the rent on my own, I wouldn't need the roommate in the first place. If my roommate can't make the rent, I get a new one.
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Originally Posted by Toony
I simply leave a team or decline to tank if they appoint me as the "tank". I know my brutes limits and unless I have a bunch of buffs on me, I am not going to be leaving that +3 mob of cimerorans set for a team of 8, alive. It'd be a waste of mine and the teams time if they put their hopes on me being able to "tank". Generally, if I wanted to tank I'd be on my tanker.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_EU
don't assume they'll tank, just assume they'll be fighting away. If you are in trouble try pulling the nasty over to the Brute and chances are it'll decide he makes a much more tempting target (obviously I'll buff said Brute / debuff his enemies in the process. He's no use to me if he keels over).
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Originally Posted by Sitriel
This.
Funny enough this far more often than not does the trick and people actually believe the brute is tanking. |
Just because the mechanics are different, in a team setting, the roles are the same. Brutes are not tanks, this is true enough, and the way they play is different if played well. A tank, in a group, has one job, and that is to get the attention of all mobs and keep it on him, damage is secondary. Brutes grab the attention of the mobs by putting out tons of damage. Too many people compare brutes to scrappers, and too many try to make them tanks. The reality is they are almost dead in between, and if played well, can be both at the same time.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
I am new to COH/COV and had a question about Tankers and Brutes. I am interested in Tanking as I have done that in other games. From what I have been reading, tankers are the "best" tanks. My question is, how far behind the tanker is the brute?
If one were to make a tanker and brute with the same powers and enhancement slots, how far behind would the brute be on defense? And while I am new to the game and haven't done any of the end game content, can a brute tank it? Are there any power combinations that work better for tanking? Also remember I am new, so I will not have access to anything too expensive... but it is my hope as an end game style tank I can get that money
The only reason I ask is that I like CoV a little more. It is not about being a villian either, it is all about the graphics. CoV graphics just seem much better. Do the two games become comparible later on? I haven't gotten a guy out of the third zone yet.