In Your Opinion, What is a "Farm"?


Agonus

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PL4U View Post
Farming is going to do a mission or missions with the explicit purpose of getting loot drops, recipes, or money.
I would say in general that farming is repeating the same mission over and over for some reason. There are many reasons for that, including but not limited to:
- Getting certain kinds of drops (Science SOs, arcane salvage, etc).
- The particular map and enemies are great for gaining XP and/or inf, for whatever reason.
- Collecting hunting badges.
- It's just a really fun mission, and the player(s) don't feel like doing anything else for a while.

There used to be another reason for me: filling up the upper 30s mission gap in CoH. There used to be a rather large mission gap before getting to level 40 when soloing, so I found a CoT mission I liked and ran through it without completing it a number of times. That gap went away, so filling content gaps is no longer a reason for me to farm.

I've done some badge farming here and there in the past. For example, the 7th Generation Paragon Protector missions are good to farm for the Infiltrator badge. Pilgrim's final mission has a lot of Shivans that are good to farm for the Man/Woman in Black badge. I don't like to do too much of that, but I still might do some badge farming in the future for certain characters.

For me, repeating the same mission breaks immersion and is boring for me. I need plot, and repeating a mission breaks the plot. Doing the same mission over and over becomes progressively more tedious for me, and I can't do it too many times (maybe three or four). I certainly would never repeat the same mission with the same character just because it's fun, because it wouldn't be much fun the second time around. I have alts for that. (Oddly enough, I can do the same mission with many different characters without reducing my fun, because each time I'm immersed in the plot.)


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Terman8er View Post
Isn't that subjective? Specifically your statement of I dont know about farming the AE because I think that is silly... You dont get anything good for doing it."

Isn't what is "good" subjective to each person?

Tickets are good, XP is good, influence is good...right? If not to you then perhaps to someone else?
When someone retreats into abstract philosophy of morality they are probably just trying to stir things up.


 

Posted

Farming is running content over and over and over and over and over and over again. yawn. Just thinking about it makes me want to roll an alt.


I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Snakebit View Post
Farming is running content over and over and over and over and over and over again. yawn. Just thinking about it makes me want to roll an alt.
Good sir you do not understand what a great service farmers do. If not for farmers, our economy would crash in a matter of nano-seconds and space would be divided by zero.


 

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Originally Posted by Toony View Post
If not for farmers, our economy would crash in a matter of nano-seconds and space would be divided by zero.
Personally, that wouldn't bother me at all. If the loot farmers stopped farming, I wouldn't notice.


 

Posted

Looking at the original poster's registration date, I'm having a hard time accepting that the question might be anything but troll bait. If you've been playing, even off and on, for five years then you know expletive-well what a farm is, because you've been seeing people spam invites for fillers for one farming mission after another the whole time you've been here. You know what the people who are looking for missions to farm find desirable. You know what maps they prefer. So when you see someone exactly replicate one of the classic farming missions, any of the long list of ones that NCsoft, Paragon, and/or Cryptic have had to go in and set to timed missions so that people couldn't farm them over and over forever, you know full well what the person who designed that mission was thinking: "this combination of enemies, with this particular design for an ally that will increase my farming efficiency without kill-stealing my XP, on a map that lets me move continuously and effortlessly from one spawn to the next until we're ready to reset, of exactly the right size to hit hit the max-ticket cap for me and all 7 fillers -- there, perfect."

If you weren't someone who registered back in 2004, I would tell you to not feel bad if you can't tell the difference between a legitimate mission and a farming mission, it just means that you haven't learned all the borderline exploits, and that's a good thing; let those of us who have been disgusted by the whole phenomenon for years put our knowledge to good use shutting them down and don't worry about it yourself. I'd reassure you that the exact combination of the right one or two factions with exactly the right one or two maps with a particularly counter-intuitive NPC design is not something you're likely to stumble upon by accident, and if you do, you're unlikely to get the slot locked for first offense.

But since you're not someone who just fell off of the turnip truck, it seems to me that it's far too likely that you're trying to stir up an argument, cloud the waters, to create the false and dishonest impression that there's any particular doubt about what's legitimate and what's not, so that you can lie to yourself and to others that you had no reason to think that your lovingly-recreated wolf farm or TV farm or Dreck farm or meow farm or anything based on similarly exploited game mechanics was disallowed, so that if you get punished for it, you can feel justified when you scream and cry that the developers are meanies, that they're arbitrary dictators who only picked on you because they're bad people and they hate you for not being a fawning fanboy.

If my guess is wrong and the question was sincere, my apologies for the misunderstanding. If my guess is right, good luck with that, farmer.


 

Posted

I pay 15 bucks a month same as most of you...

Why is it you people *read: rawr* make posts about farmers like we are somehow "unworthy"... I PAY to play this game, and HAVE FUN. How are you better than me? Seriously. Some of you post with a condisending tone.

*Disclaimer*
I do feel that Farming in the AE is not REAL farming. I think its more power leveling. Or something.
I feel that farming, atleast the way I do it is REAL, because I get real drops and not tickets.


 

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Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero View Post
Farming in this game is differant than most games. The traditional definition of farming is preforming the same taks repeatedly, usually fighting a single enemy type or boss, to obtain a specific reward. IE, "This boss drops a weapon, I want that weapon, therefore I won't stop killing him til I get it."

CoX is differant, because there is no "X drops Y". Almost anything can drop almost everything. So the task is modified, farming becomes killing as many enemies as possible in a short amount of time to get the reward.

Is this wrong? Not really, it's a fundamental part of gaming which everyone does, to one extent or another.

The problem lies not with farming as a whole, but with powerlevelling. Farming for XP is differant, and unhealty to the game balance. We've all seen the "AE Babies", and they speak for themselves.

The other problem is AE. It was not designed for making farms, and doing so is basically spitting in the face of the people who went through programming Hell to design it. It's like making a new toy for a child, and then watching the child gleefully smash it to pieces. They might think it's fun, they might say "You didn't say not to", but your hard work was just ruined.
You know, that gives me the self image of other MMO's, cutting away at the field of NPCs, trying to find That One Drop and sweating the whole day while doing it.

While CoH shakes its head, walks off and finds something bigger!


I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

 

Posted

I have a very simple definition of farming:

If you do something repeatedly explicitly for the quantifiable rewards it offers, you're farming.

If you make a boss-only map in AE and run it over and over because it's challenging and you enjoy taking down powerful foes, that's not farming. If you do it because they give the best XP/inf/drops per minutes, that's farming.



...I forgot what experience means.

 

Posted

Main Entry: farm
Pronunciation: \ˈfärm\
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English ferme, from Anglo-French, from fermer to fix, rent, from Latin firmare to make firm, from firmus firm
Date: 14th century

1 obsolete: a sum or due fixed in amount and payable at fixed intervals
2: a letting out of revenues or taxes for a fixed sum to one authorized to collect and retain them
3: a district or division of a country leased out for the collection of government revenues
4: a tract of land devoted to agricultural purposes
5 a: a plot of land devoted to the raising of animals and especially domestic livestock b: a tract of water reserved for the artificial cultivation of some aquatic life form <a fish farm>
6: a minor-league team (as in baseball) associated with a major-league team as a subsidiary
7: an area containing a number of similar structures or objects (as radio antennas or storage tanks)


Thought for the day:

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

=][=

 

Posted

Let's consider what a farm is outside of MMOs for a second. Farming started when hunters and gathers decided to stand still and plant seeds in a plot of land, cultivate it, and reap the harvest.

That definition was carried over to MMOs and games in general. When you stop moving around and stay in one place to cultivate your rewards, you are farming. It doesn't matter whether you do that in dev missions, AE, Ouro, arena, or a hazard zone. If you are staying in one place to harvest rewards, you are farming.

Farming, in and of itself, is not bad. The rise of civilation and societies is based on crop and lifestock farming. In MMOs, the availibilty of many in-game items and rewards are greatly increased by farming and do trickle down into the population beyond the farmers.

In real life, certain farms are disallowed. Coca leaves and marijuana immediately come to mind. Why are those farms disallowed? Because the derivatives of those plants are an inordinate amount of wealth concentrated into the hands of a few law breakers, which can lead to corruption, and a stuporforic effect on the population that uses the derivative drugs.

In MMO terms, things like the mito farms and meow farms have the same end results -- an inordinate amount of wealth concentrated into the hands of a few and stupified players that don't know how to do anything but sit on a stoop and watch the world go by.


50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM

Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad

 

Posted

Farm, a place where foodstuffs are produced, either in the form of vegetation or livestock.

Not to be confused with a ranch, where only livestock are produced, and not necessarily for the purpose of becoming food, or an orchard, which produces no livestock, and generally specializes in fruits.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea View Post
Let's consider what a farm is outside of MMOs for a second. Farming started when hunters and gathers decided to stand still and plant seeds in a plot of land, cultivate it, and reap the harvest.

That definition was carried over to MMOs and games in general. When you stop moving around and stay in one place to cultivate your rewards, you are farming. It doesn't matter whether you do that in dev missions, AE, Ouro, arena, or a hazard zone. If you are staying in one place to harvest rewards, you are farming.

Farming, in and of itself, is not bad. The rise of civilation and societies is based on crop and lifestock farming. In MMOs, the availibilty of many in-game items and rewards are greatly increased by farming and do trickle down into the population beyond the farmers.

In real life, certain farms are disallowed. Coca leaves and marijuana immediately come to mind. Why are those farms disallowed? Because the derivatives of those plants are an inordinate amount of wealth concentrated into the hands of a few law breakers, which can lead to corruption, and a stuporforic effect on the population that uses the derivative drugs.

In MMO terms, things like the mito farms and meow farms have the same end results -- an inordinate amount of wealth concentrated into the hands of a few and stupified players that don't know how to do anything but sit on a stoop and watch the world go by.
My God...That is the most sensible analysis of farming I have ever seen.


The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)

Virtue Forever.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain View Post
I pay 15 bucks a month same as most of you...

Why is it you people *read: rawr* make posts about farmers like we are somehow "unworthy"... I PAY to play this game, and HAVE FUN. How are you better than me? Seriously. Some of you post with a condisending tone.

*Disclaimer*
I do feel that Farming in the AE is not REAL farming. I think its more power leveling. Or something.
I feel that farming, atleast the way I do it is REAL, because I get real drops and not tickets.
Well, to me playing CoX is all about having a laugh with in-game friends, doing all sorts of silly things (MOTH POWER!!!! ) and generally speaking just having fun, but repeating a mission X countless of times just to get a rare drop Y which in turn would supposedly boost a specific aspect of a character by Z% is simply not fun at all - it's boring and mind-numbingly dull as far as I'm concerned and I honestly can't see a reason why anyone would want to spend their spare time doing that. Naturally, your mileage may vary and I take it you indeed find it very enjoyable, but it's simply not my thing. A lot of people like it, yes, but I don't, not in CoX.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero View Post
My God...That is the most sensible analysis of farming I have ever seen.
Thanks!


50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM

Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Toony View Post
Beat me to it.

STAMOOOOOOS!
I was hoping to make this post as well.


Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster


"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Velinia View Post
Well, to me playing CoX is all about having a laugh with in-game friends, doing all sorts of silly things (MOTH POWER!!!! ) and generally speaking just having fun, but repeating a mission X countless of times just to get a rare drop Y which in turn would supposedly boost a specific aspect of a character by Z% is simply not fun at all - it's boring and mind-numbingly dull as far as I'm concerned and I honestly can't see a reason why anyone would want to spend their spare time doing that. Naturally, your mileage may vary and I take it you indeed find it very enjoyable, but it's simply not my thing. A lot of people like it, yes, but I don't, not in CoX.
It is fun to me.
It doesn't need to be fun for everyone.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain View Post
I pay 15 bucks a month same as most of you...

Why is it you people *read: rawr* make posts about farmers like we are somehow "unworthy"... I PAY to play this game, and HAVE FUN. How are you better than me? Seriously. Some of you post with a condisending tone.

*Disclaimer*
I do feel that Farming in the AE is not REAL farming. I think its more power leveling. Or something.
I feel that farming, atleast the way I do it is REAL, because I get real drops and not tickets.

Most likely because, all the threads complaining about "farming" aren't complaining about farming.... they're referring to exploitative AE powerleveling.

You just have a very, very specific definition of "farm", and seem to react negatively to people who are using the term in a different way.

----------

My take on it:

In general terms, "farming" is repeating some task ad nauseum, in pursuit of gathering some resource. Also, presumably, in some efficient manner.

People powerleveling are "farming" XP.
People doing TFs and Ouro arcs over and over might be "farming" Merits.
People might farm Inf, or salvage drops, or purple drops, etc, etc, etc.
(People in other MMOs might "farm" a certain Boss, trying to get the rare "resource" that only he drops.)


And, hey, that's all well and good...... until you find an exploit that lets you get "resource" much faster than other players and/or with less effort/risk/etc than the designers intend.

When people complain about AE Farming, they're complaining about abusively, absurdly, irrationally fast and easy powerleveling.

-----
Side anecdote - the only time I stepped into AE over the 2XP weekend was when I wanted to farm....... common salvage! I leveled several of my alts (via contact missions) into the mid-high teens over the weekend, and wanted to keep a steady supply of Damage/Accuracy/Recharge/EnduraceReduce IOs on hand for them to use.

This ran me out of lowbie common salvage really quickly.... and I wasn't about to pay the WW prices. A couple quick solo runs through a couple AE arcs gave me a few hundred tickets - which turns into *alot* of common salvage at 8 tickets each.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terman8er View Post
I hear a lot about "farm" this and that. I report "farms"..."farms" are exploits, etc..so I thought I should find out what makes a farm, a "farm".

So...what, in your opinion, makes a mission a farm and thus something that should be reported?
Firstly, farming is the efficient generation of rewards. This quest for efficiency generally means finding large numbers of an enemy you can defeat swiftly on a large, open map with a simple layout.


Secondly, keep your nose out of other people's fun.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea View Post
Let's consider what a farm is outside of MMOs for a second. Farming started when hunters and gathers decided to stand still and plant seeds in a plot of land, cultivate it, and reap the harvest.

That definition was carried over to MMOs and games in general. When you stop moving around and stay in one place to cultivate your rewards, you are farming. It doesn't matter whether you do that in dev missions, AE, Ouro, arena, or a hazard zone. If you are staying in one place to harvest rewards, you are farming.

Farming, in and of itself, is not bad. The rise of civilation and societies is based on crop and lifestock farming. In MMOs, the availibilty of many in-game items and rewards are greatly increased by farming and do trickle down into the population beyond the farmers.

In real life, certain farms are disallowed. Coca leaves and marijuana immediately come to mind. Why are those farms disallowed? Because the derivatives of those plants are an inordinate amount of wealth concentrated into the hands of a few law breakers, which can lead to corruption, and a stuporforic effect on the population that uses the derivative drugs.

In MMO terms, things like the mito farms and meow farms have the same end results -- an inordinate amount of wealth concentrated into the hands of a few and stupified players that don't know how to do anything but sit on a stoop and watch the world go by.
Nailed it.


@Demobot

Also on Steam

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PL4U View Post
Farming is going to do a mission or missions with the explicit purpose of getting loot drops, recipes, or money.

What is a Farm?

Well, I don't accept that it's just "Farming is going to do a mission or missions with the explicit purpose of getting loot drops, recipes, or money" as one of the early posters suggested.

That's just playing the game with a set objective. There was a word for that already, so a "farm" has to be something different... at least when it originated. Thus, my current working modification of that first post:

"Farming is going to do PREDICTABLE activity with the explicit purpose of getting loot drops, recipes, or money at an OPTIMAL RATE."

PREDICTABLE: It can be the same mission over and over, harvesting the same neighborhood in a one, or running the same set of AE missions. The point is, you've narrowed your focus to a very small subset of the game.

OPTIMAL RATE: Most of us min/max to one degree or another. At some point, when we over-optimize, we've so skewered the reward-to-risk ratio that it becomes an exploit, but not all optimizing is exploitative. Some of it is just smart play.


--- Now, some backstory ---

It started with "Hunting"

Back in the old days, "playing the game with a set objective." was just called "hunting." It was perfectly acceptable and actually the behavior anticipated by the developers. The term was so synonymous with "playing the game" that it wasn't even spoken.

The patterns appear
Then people started identifying "spawn points" and started focusing on them. This wasn't enough to stop calling it a hunt, though. Good hunters know where their prey can be found.

Something else happened that led people to need a new term. Something to distinguish "hunters" from... those other people.

Down on the Farm
So, what changed?
While, like most things, it was more of a slide. An evolution of sorts.

First, there's the degree of magnitude. A "hunter" knows where prey may be found, but if the prey isn't there, he usually doesn't sit there waiting for a respawn. Maybe a minute or two, but otherwise he's off looking for other prey elsewhere. A "farmer" settles down and just cultivates that one piece of land (or mission... or pattern of missions). Over and over.

Selecting one different "Hellions" mission after another would just be a hunter like a hunter moving from spawn to spawn. Selecting the same hellions mission and resetting it constantly... that was 'settling down' and farming.

Second, there's a degree of optimization. People like rewards. We naturally gravitate to the most rewarding activities. That's natural. We also try to mitigate risks... that's natural too. "Hunters" and "farmers" both do it. The hunter, by the nature of not being settled down, though, is open to unexpected risk. The farmer has mitigated those risks... sometimes to the point of exploiting the system.

The Exploit

You're going to encounter an exploit sooner or later. While hunting, the impact is limited: as you complete that mission and move on to another, that exploit is behind you. You might never even recognize it as an exploit. It was just a particularly rewarding single encounter. Since it isn't over-done, the overall impact to the game is minimal.

A farmer, though, hearing of fertile soil, may seek it out and find it's a very nice place to settle down, reaping the benefit of the grossly imbalanced risk:reward ratio of that site for all it's worth... until a dev comes in and busts the farm.

Not all farms are exploits, but this tendency caused many "hunters" to associate "farm" with "exploit."

Finally, the Decline of Hunt
The hunt still happens, don't get me wrong... but the term has fallen out of use. Instead of "Go Hunt, Kill Skuls" people now "Farm Skuls" I guess. The action's the same, but as the "farm" took on a larger meaning, the "hunt" has been marginalized.

There are many reasons for this. I think part of it lies in the social nature of the farm. The best farms give the best rewards with certain team builds, so there were more team advertising, thus more calls for "farms." Now, many focused group activities are just called "farm" regardless of whether they're "settled" to the point of predictability or "Optimized" much at all.

And that leaves us old codgers pounding our canes on the floor and cursing, "Dangnabbit, that ain't a farm!"


 

Posted

A "farm" is something that causes self-appointed mother hens to climb atop their soap boxes and don a cloak of self righteousness and then proceed to tell others how to do things their way......

Or you could just play how you want and leave the rest of the population alone.

Is that a clear enough definition for you?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hookecho View Post
A "farm" is something that causes self-appointed mother hens to climb atop their soap boxes and don a cloak of self righteousness and then proceed to tell others how to do things their way......

Or you could just play how you want and leave the rest of the population alone.

Is that a clear enough definition for you?
If this was a single-player game, that'd be fine, but your actions affect others here... and when the actions in question have already been flagged as undesirable by the devs, it makes others feel more justified in addressing them.

Granted, I think even the devs weren't talking about "farms" in the loose terms. They were talking about the farms that border on- or extend into- exploit territory (see my definition)

I'll also grant that farms in this game have LESS of an impact than they do in other games. Zone-based farms have in past games blocked quest completion for DAYS for players, particularly for "named" spawns. That doesn't happen here. We're affected only by the rampant inflation that influence farming dumps on the market, or the gimping of a fun mission because some idiots constantly reset it to reap the reward again and again.

And finally, we're affected by the dev resources wasted chasing down those problems... and that's the one thing that we realize we have any way to mitigate. When we report RESPONSIBLY (not hair-trigger report-happy) we help the devs find the problem content faster.

Some argue that our reporting just swamps the devs, making it harder, not easier. I disagree. The devs actively requested we report... and if they were being flooded with too many "false positives" they could just as easily post and warn us to be more discriminating in our reporting...

And for the record, I was offline for the worst of the AE Farm issues, so I've never had to report a farming mission. Ever.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain View Post
I dont know about farming the AE because I think that is silly... You dont get anything good for doing it.

I farm for drops, and then I sell them on the market and make big $
OMG! I make 100mil in an hour farming AE. Get a map with lots of rescues or defendable objects, etc, and all you need is one or two fillers. Spawn a small section of the map, and fight solo untill you get about 700 tickets. Complete the mission and repeat 4 more times. Takes about an hour to get 9000 tickets which is roughly 100mil influence if you roll bronze rolls 10-14.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic View Post
As an Anti-farmer that has reported many exploit farm/pl'ing missions in the AE, I'll let you know my criteria.

We are talking about the balance of risk versus rewards. Therefore, anytime that they players are given a far greater advantage over the enemies in the mission or the mission is set to yield far greater rewards than normal, I consider it an exploit farm.

That is to say, if you feel that you are getting far greater rewards than you should be - and this is obvious enough in many cases that even someone that hasn't played the game before can say "hey? why am I leveling so fast?" - then you know it is an exploit.
If the AE mission isn't constructed in the same kind of mob balance as a normal mission, I consider it an exploit farm

I would go into specifics, but we are not supposed to post exploits in the forums.
You must be talking about missions that are manic slammers! I have an all boss farm that was reported as a farm. Usually I unpublish it and republish it to get rid of the complaint, but just for the heck of it, I left it up to see what would happen. Apparently it's not a farm because that was a month ago. Go try it, it's called Help MJ and is built for an ice tank. it's best run on tedious. MJ's hair is on fire and you have to beat him until it's out