In Your Opinion, What is a "Farm"?
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2009-08-05 22:25 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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The mitos in those farms would heal themselves, but they lacked anyway to fight the player. To me, filling a map with enemies that cannot fight back is an obvious exploit. Anybody that doesn't see it that way is intentionally choosing not to use common sense.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I've never had any dealings with mitos and have no idea what their "correct" behavior is supposed to be.
Which is why the whole "you should know it when you see it" 'definition' of an exploit is hooey. That said, if the 'real' mitos have no attacks I don't see that their lack of attacks in AE is anything other than "working as intended". And this whole line of argument goes all the way back to closed beta- people told them what was going to happen. People suggested fixes. They released it anyway. So, I don't consider using any spawn available in MA to be an "exploit". They could've fixed it, they chose not to, c'est la vie. |
That being said, I feel it was handled much better this time. A problem was discovered, and they quietly fixed it. I think they learned their lesson from the cluster-**** that was Comm officer punishments. I have no issues with the way this was addressed.
Also, the fact that certain spawns that are easily exploitable that were left in AE unchanged is probably nothing more than an oversight on their part. Which is why I feel punishing the players is stupid.
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How do those enemies behave in the "real" game?|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
The mitos in those farms would heal themselves, but they lacked anyway to fight the player. To me, filling a map with enemies that cannot fight back is an obvious exploit. Anybody that doesn't see it that way is intentionally choosing not to use common sense.
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If they don't have attacks, then no "exploit" is possible.
If they do have attacks and they were bugged in MA, there is some possible moral hazard for players who knew something was wrong but farmed them anyway.
In any case, if its in the game, people will use it. If the devs don't like that, they can change things. It isn't the players job to decipher what's OK to fight and what is an "exploit".
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| That being said, I feel it was handled much better this time. A problem was discovered, and they quietly fixed it. I think they learned their lesson from the cluster-**** that was Comm officer punishments. I have no issues with the way this was addressed. |
Here's hoping the lesson sticks.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I was being sarcastic, hun. |
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
It's not like it was a secret.
Not with terms like ZPM (zombies per minute) being thrown about the Market forum at one time. And it's not like I would have a character or two who are designed to play primarily at L50 and L29-ish.   |
"Unless there's a law explicitly saying it's wrong, anything I do is ok" is why our IRL financial system is so borked.
And, on that note, I'm outta here. You're right, it's not a debate when all the various sides involved are 110% entrenched in their positions.
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I would agree with this in general, but not entirely. Fast leveling or above normal rewards are not in and of themselves exploits... they're only exploits if the risk is not proportionately higher. For instance, solo farming 8-man groups of level 52-54 bosses in AE gives insanely high rewards... but it also means fighting a dozen purple bosses at a time. If a player has the skills and super-expensive IO build needed to actually defeat a dozen purple bosses at once then they deserve the resulting rewards. Such missions are probably the only thing that gives such a character any real challenge. On the other hand, if some exploit is used (like some way to prevent the enemy from attacking or back when you could stack a ton of buffing and debuffing allies to make any spawn easy) that's totally different and definitely an exploit. But fast XP and rewards alone are not a problem as long as the challenge is in line with the rewards.
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Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
As an Anti-farmer that has reported many exploit farm/pl'ing missions in the AE, I'll let you know my criteria.
We are talking about the balance of risk versus rewards. Therefore, anytime that they players are given a far greater advantage over the enemies in the mission or the mission is set to yield far greater rewards than normal, I consider it an exploit farm. That is to say, if you feel that you are getting far greater rewards than you should be - and this is obvious enough in many cases that even someone that hasn't played the game before can say "hey? why am I leveling so fast?" - then you know it is an exploit. If the AE mission isn't constructed in the same kind of mob balance as a normal mission, I consider it an exploit farm I would go into specifics, but we are not supposed to post exploits in the forums. |
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
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I agree.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
They have the power to do whatever they like.
But if they refuse to define their terms while insisting on punishing paying customers, they lose the moral standing to justify their actions. |
How many people actually LOST their toons when that went through?
I'm honestly asking. A prolonged illness and death in the family made me miss most of the past 4 months of online drama.
Usually, when you encounter something as ambiguous as drawing the line between natural min/maxing and exploiting, there's a WIDE gray area. That gray area is where a Dev/GM would consider it bad enough to be breaking the system but a reasonable person may not think that he's pushed the boundaries too far. The best practice is to penalize the "black" cases but let "gray" go with a warning or much lesser punishments. It lets them better understand where the threshold lies without alienating them too far.
The devs did warn that they'd be datamining to find and respond to "abuses of the system" and that's a phrase that's necessarily vague (otherwise rules lawyers just skirt around it).
If they came down too heavily in the "gray area," that's a failure in execution.
Unfortunately it appeared they came down too heavily in the grey area, there were people that hadn't even touched the AE getting hit for it (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong people, I'm not above being corrected), people who had pacted with a friend so they could level together would suddenly find their toon banned thanks to the other one having gone into the AE farms without the them knowing.
Basically it came across as a blanket ban, however there may have simply been a lot of mistakes, since most of the EU community had decided on the definition of "egigarious(sp) abuse of the AE system" came down to power levelling 2 or more level 50's in the space of 1-2 days. In other words people who seriously went at it to power level as hard as they could using the system to gain multiple level 50s in such a short space of time.
Those that had levelled one character to 50 or levelled one or two to 30, seemed to have been left alone.
I don't think it was they way the ban was enacted but the way Positrons initial outburst came through. Basically Positron verbally threw his toys out of the pram. There was a much better, reworded, second version of the address (one has to wonder if the wordsmith War Witch didn't do some touching up on the wording of the second draft).
It left a bad taste in peoples mouths.
That is a recap of the drama to the best of my memory...
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You never did either the Hamidon Raid or the LGTF, ever? I find that hard to believe but, if you say so.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I've never had any dealings with mitos and have no idea what their "correct" behavior is supposed to be.
Which is why the whole "you should know it when you see it" 'definition' of an exploit is hooey. That said, if the 'real' mitos have no attacks I don't see that their lack of attacks in AE is anything other than "working as intended". |
Name one instance in the "real" game where any singular foe without attacks exists, not an object but a foe.
Them having no attacks when they are always spawned with other mitos (with attacks) and Hamidon (who also has attacks) is not an issue. Them spawning alone is another issue. Them having no attacks is working as intended. Them being the only enemies on a map is not. Even if you had never seen them before, not seeing that getting full rewards without any risk being mitigated (i.e. they are not debuffed, held, or any other action of the player) as working as intended is being obtuse.
--Rad
/whereami:
The way I see it...
Farming has a very definitive, absolute meaning. It is the repetition of a certain task in order to maximize its benefits. Hence why it is called farming. Because that's pretty much what happens in agricultural farming, which is the origin of the word 'farm'.
Power-leveling has a very relative definition. In a universe in which, on average, it takes players one month to go from the lowest possible level, to the highest possible level, power-leveling would be taking that journey in a proportionally quicker time (i.e. Let's say one week). In a universe where everyone does the same thing in one week, then that one-week leveler is no longer a power-leveler.
Exploiting, like farming, has a very definitive, and absolute meaning. However, it's definition, in no way, shape, or form, even overlaps the definition of farming. And the only people who can define what exactly falls under the term "exploit" and what doesn't, are the people who design the rules for this game, also known as Paragon Studios and NCSoft.
rawr
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I can agree with that to an extent. Only the devs can say exactly what an exploit is. However, we are all intelligent beings. Our brains can analyze a situation and extrapolate possibilities. We have an idea of the risk vs reward ratio established in this universe, at least if you have ever played any of the cannon content. This is why I disagree to an extent with Nethergoat's assessment that the definition of you know it when you see it is hooey.|
Originally Posted by Bright_Shadow
Exploiting, like farming, has a very definitive, and absolute meaning. However, it's definition, in no way, shape, or form, even overlaps the definition of farming. And the only people who can define what exactly falls under the term "exploit" and what doesn't, are the people who design the rules for this game, also known as Paragon Studios and NCSoft.
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Walking into a farm say with mobs that have no attacks, I cannot imagine not thinking that something is wrong with what is going on here. To me, it is an obvious exploit. I don't really need the devs to tell me that.
--Rad
/whereami:
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I agree with you. You are free to suspect something is an exploit. That's why you are given tools to notify the developers in case you think something is an exploit.|
Originally Posted by Radionuclide
I can agree with that to an extent. Only the devs can say exactly what an exploit is. However, we are all intelligent beings. Our brains can analyze a situation and extrapolate possibilities. We have an idea of the risk vs reward ratio established in this universe, at least if you have ever played any of the cannon content. This is why I disagree to an extent with Nethergoat's assessment that the definition of you know it when you see it is hooey.
Walking into a farm say with mobs that have no attacks, I cannot imagine not thinking that something is wrong with what is going on here. To me, it is an obvious exploit. I don't really need the devs to tell me that. --Rad |
You notify the developers. That arc, instance, whatever gets flagged. And the developers decide if it actually is an exploit or not. End of story.
By coming here and saying everyone is a cheater and an exploitive farmer, like a certain someone I will not name, you're not solving anything. You're merely setting yourself up for a flame post.
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I don't have the time for TFs and/or raids. Subtracting Katies I can count the # of TFs I've run in the last 5 years on one hand, and I wouldn't need a single finger for the last two.|
Originally Posted by Radionuclide
You never did either the Hamidon Raid or the LGTF, ever? I find that hard to believe but, if you say so.
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My only exposure to Hamidon was taking a break from Kora farming with my elec/emp back when phase shift still worked and strolling into the middle of the jello mold to get the badge.
I imagine there are many player like me who log a fair amount of game time overall but hardly ever have the multiple consecutive hours required for most of the 'advanced' content.
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| Name one instance in the "real" game where any singular foe without attacks exists, not an object but a foe. |
Were the mitos bugged?
If they weren't, there's nothing to discuss.
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| Them having no attacks when they are always spawned with other mitos (with attacks) and Hamidon (who also has attacks) is not an issue. |
I see it as the entirity of the issue.
If they have no attacks in the 'real' game and MA lets you fill maps with whatever you want from the real game it isn't on the players to just "know" they aren't supposed to do it.
It was a legal use of a game entity.
The devs didn't like it, so they pulled them.
Fair enough.
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| Them having no attacks is working as intended. Them being the only enemies on a map is not. |
MA EXPLICITLY allows you to fill maps with one entity.
If the devs blew it and allowed an enemy they didn't want available, that's no fault of the playerbase.
They didn't like the result, they changed it, fantastic. Everybody moves on. That was exactly how the system should work.
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| Even if you had never seen them before, not seeing that getting full rewards without any risk being mitigated (i.e. they are not debuffed, held, or any other action of the player) as working as intended is being obtuse. |
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
[QR]
Why are anti-farmers are using Mito Farms as a basis for their arguments?
Mito Farm was an exploit. It was taken care of by the developers. Discussion over.
As of now, there are no enemies in AE that do not attack, or that provide a very large experience bonus compared to the risk involved. If you think fighting level 54 bosses have no risks, then I have nothing to discuss with you, as you have no idea how the game works.
Why are people in here talking about AE ???
That isn't real farming.
That is more like PowerLeveling.
/sighs
Because AE introduced a method of customized farming. If you can customize it you can min/max it. In that it has attracted a large amount of famers and in doing so drawn new players to the same area to ride along.
Auto-exemping is not helping ether.
I agree with you however. I have made more money farming RWZ for purples than at any time in AE. Close second is ITF farming where I gathered merits for LOTG.
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Honestly, there are so many threads on AE, I kinda mix 'em up at times. I wouldn't be surprised if others did too.|
Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain
Why are people in here talking about AE ???
That isn't real farming. That is more like PowerLeveling. /sighs |
Here's an screenshot of all my subscribed threads, zoomed out. Minus like, 4 or 5 of them, all of them are mostly centered about AE and farming.
Isn't this ridiculous?!
...ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!
If it does not make sense, then it is a farm. The defence rests!
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Originally Posted by Calash
...ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!
If it does not make sense, then it is a farm. The defence rests! |
Did you say?Objection?
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Fair enough|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I don't have the time for TFs and/or raids. Subtracting Katies I can count the # of TFs I've run in the last 5 years on one hand, and I wouldn't need a single finger for the last two.
My only exposure to Hamidon was taking a break from Kora farming with my elec/emp back when phase shift still worked and strolling into the middle of the jello mold to get the badge. I imagine there are many player like me who log a fair amount of game time overall but hardly ever have the multiple consecutive hours required for most of the 'advanced' content. I haven't fought everything in the game, so I don't see the relevance. |
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Were the mitos bugged? If they weren't, there's nothing to discuss. Why not? I see it as the entirity of the issue. If they have no attacks in the 'real' game and MA lets you fill maps with whatever you want from the real game it isn't on the players to just "know" they aren't supposed to do it. It was a legal use of a game entity. The devs didn't like it, so they pulled them. Fair enough. Absolutely incorrect. MA EXPLICITLY allows you to fill maps with one entity. If the devs blew it and allowed an enemy they didn't want available, that's no fault of the playerbase. They didn't like the result, they changed it, fantastic. Everybody moves on. That was exactly how the system should work. Given your insistence on ignoring the key point of the entire discussion, I find your inability to grasp my position comforting. |
Were the individual entity bugged? No. But, that does not mean that there was no bug. Simply because it exists in one form within one context of the game does not make it working as intended when placed outside of that context. Is that bug the devs fault alone? Certainly.
Where we disagree, Nethergoat, is that because it can be used makes those that do use it for whatever gains are innocent; simply because it was not explicitly. As I stated, a mob that does not attack back yet grants full rewards (i.e. 0 risk for 100% rewards) is a bug. Using it over and over is an exploit forbidden. Not everything in life needs to be spelled out.
--Rad
/whereami:
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Because the exploit was farmed a lot. But more to the point, I am pointing it out in response to Nethergoat's comments made in this thread which I specifically addressing.|
Originally Posted by Bright_Shadow
[QR]
Why are anti-farmers are using Mito Farms as a basis for their arguments? Mito Farm was an exploit. It was taken care of by the developers. Discussion over. As of now, there are no enemies in AE that do not attack, or that provide a very large experience bonus compared to the risk involved. If you think fighting level 54 bosses have no risks, then I have nothing to discuss with you, as you have no idea how the game works. |
--Rad
/whereami:
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Because while not all farming is powerleveling, all powerleveling is farming. Farming of experience.|
Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain
Why are people in here talking about AE ???
That isn't real farming. That is more like PowerLeveling. /sighs |
--Rad
/whereami:
*goes and starts a thread about how Dark Astoria is ruining CoX*
Not with terms like ZPM (zombies per minute) being thrown about the Market forum at one time.
And it's not like I would have a character or two who are designed to play primarily at L50 and L29-ish.