In Your Opinion, What is a "Farm"?
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2009-08-05 22:25 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Code has no rights.|
Originally Posted by Atheism
Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.
|
Unless you're interacting directly with another human player, you can do whatever you like to any in-game entity with impunity.
If it isn't impossible, people will do it.
If the devs don't want people doing it, then the burden is on them to make it impossible- or at least inefficient.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Kiralyn
And the devs *have* been changing it (slowly) to close up loopholes, restrict exploits, and limit behaviors they don't approve of.
One of the ways the Devs find out about these things? By people debating about them on the forums, and/or reporting things in game. |
My point is that until rules are changed by the devs there is no moral component to any in-game playstyle. Farmers have as much right to farm as RPers have to RP.
Quote:
| "Farming" (and/or "grinding") is a time honored RPG/MMO occupation. (I've done plenty of each, in games from Ultima 1 to Final Fantasy 8 to WoW) Exploiting/cheating, however, shouldn't be. Figuring out where exploiting begins is, of course, the challenging part. |
That responsibility rests entirely with the people who create the world- they wrote the code that made the systems that we use to interact. If they don't like something, they can change it.
The only possible "exploits" in an MMO game world would come from manipulating the world with outside code (hacking) or, to borrow a term from FPS gaming, 'glitching'- exploiting geometry flaws (getting outside the world, for instance) or code malfunctions (the Hellions who would just lean against the wall no matter what you did).
Otherwise, anything that isn't impossible is perfectly fine.
This is a game I play- figuring out what is and isn't intended isn't my job, that's what the devs are for.
In a closed system like this the assumption is if you can do it, do it. If they didn't want you doing it, you wouldn't be able to.
/edit
also, co-sign Perfect Pain. =)
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
So in otherwords, exploiting the game is ok.
|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Code has no rights.
Unless you're interacting directly with another human player, you can do whatever you like to any in-game entity with impunity. If it isn't impossible, people will do it. If the devs don't want people doing it, then the burden is on them to make it impossible- or at least inefficient. |
Quote:
...or establish a proportionate punitive element to deter people from taking said action... and request volunteers to report incidents they encounter so that responses to these problems have higher celerity and certainty.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Code has no rights.
Unless you're interacting directly with another human player, you can do whatever you like to any in-game entity with impunity. If it isn't impossible, people will do it. If the devs don't want people doing it, then the burden is on them to make it impossible- or at least inefficient. |
Seems that's what the devs have done, and as the game developers, they've got the right to establish the rules- both through programming and through more traditional methods.
Wasn't there a FARMING sticky awhile ago???
What happened to that?
I don't think it was ever a sticky, it was just really popular for a while.
Quote:
No, in other words there is no such thing as an "exploit" as defined by our local Morality Police & Fainting Couch Society.|
Originally Posted by Atheism
So in otherwords, exploiting the game is ok.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
...or establish a proportionate punitive element to deter people from taking said action... and request volunteers to report incidents they encounter so that responses to these problems have higher celerity and certainty.
Seems that's what the devs have done, and as the game developers, they've got the right to establish the rules- both through programming and through more traditional methods. |
No wonder Bubble Farming resulted in the same spree of bans and rollbacks as Meow Farming....oh wait.
They have the power to do whatever they like.
But if they refuse to define their terms while insisting on punishing paying customers, they lose the moral standing to justify their actions.
And that is a dangerous path for any entertainment concern to travel down, as I think they discovered.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
A farm is just running a mish over and over and over....
Currently Playing:
Frozen Kat - Ice/Ice Blaster (Triumph)
Flaming Kat - Fire/Fire Blaster (Triumph)
Quote:
You should read this. |
Originally Posted by Atheism
So in otherwords, exploiting the game is ok.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
No, in other words there is no such thing as an "exploit" as defined by our local Morality Police & Fainting Couch Society.
|
I'd just like a clarification on this.
Is it your position that, until the Devs said "no, don't do that", there was absolutely nothing wrong (i.e, no one could look at the situation and say, 'heck, that ain't right') with gaining boatloads of XP/Inf from an MA map filled with completely passive Healing Mitos?
That this was not an obvious exploit?
Quote:
A map filled with completely passive Healing Mitos was an exploit.|
Originally Posted by Kiralyn
I'd just like a clarification on this.
Is it your position that, until the Devs said "no, don't do that", there was absolutely nothing wrong (i.e, no one could look at the situation and say, 'heck, that ain't right') with gaining boatloads of XP/Inf from an MA map filled with completely passive Healing Mitos? That this was not an obvious exploit? |
Newsflash!
It got 'fixed' by the developers.
A map filled with level 54 bosses that make most PuGs shiver and scream in terror is an exploit...?!
Newflash!
It has not been 'fixed' by the developers.
Do you see the logical connection here?
Quote:
Ah, but in a multiplayer game, some playstyles can impact on the other players. |
Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain
Please stop trying to say your playstyle is better than mine.
You pay your 15 bucks a month and I will pay mine. It really is THAT simple. |
For example, in some other games, someone might enjoy spending four hours wiping out all the NPCs in the opposing faction's newbie zone..... thereby ruining the playstyle of all those newbies. Especially if it's a non-PvP game.
The "hurting other players" thing is also one of the main arguements against the RMTers in many games - the RMT crowd ends up distorting the in-game economy, screwing things up for anyone who doesn't use their services.
----------
Side reminder for people joining us in the middle of a thread - the "anti-Farming" debate is about the possible broken-ness of AE powerleveling (and how it may be a bad initial example of the game for new players), not farming the War Wall/PI/etc for purples and Inf.
Bright Shadow, I was merely asking that question to clarify Nethergoat's philosophy. It seems like he's saying that anything you can do in the game isn't an exploit, until after the Devs say so.
Quote:
I've never had any dealings with mitos and have no idea what their "correct" behavior is supposed to be.|
Originally Posted by Kiralyn
I'd just like a clarification on this.
Is it your position that, until the Devs said "no, don't do that", there was absolutely nothing wrong (i.e, no one could look at the situation and say, 'heck, that ain't right') with gaining boatloads of XP/Inf from an MA map filled with completely passive Healing Mitos? That this was not an obvious exploit? |
Which is why the whole "you should know it when you see it" 'definition' of an exploit is hooey.
That said, if the 'real' mitos have no attacks I don't see that their lack of attacks in AE is anything other than "working as intended".
And this whole line of argument goes all the way back to closed beta- people told them what was going to happen. People suggested fixes. They released it anyway.
So, I don't consider using any spawn available in MA to be an "exploit".
They could've fixed it, they chose not to, c'est la vie.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
Is someone hurting your playing in game?|
Originally Posted by Kiralyn
Ah, but in a multiplayer game, some playstyles can impact on the other players.
For example, in some other games, someone might enjoy spending four hours wiping out all the NPCs in the opposing faction's newbie zone..... thereby ruining the playstyle of all those newbies. Especially if it's a non-PvP game. The "hurting other players" thing is also one of the main arguements against the RMTers in many games - the RMT crowd ends up distorting the in-game economy, screwing things up for anyone who doesn't use their services. |
Report them. The developers will take care of it if needed. Do not come here and tell everyone what you think is the right thing for them to do. That's a game moderator's job. Not yours.
Quote:
That is actually true.|
Originally Posted by Kiralyn
Bright Shadow, I was merely asking that question to clarify Nethergoat's philosophy. It seems like he's saying that anything you can do in the game isn't an exploit, until after the Devs say so.
|
Only developers get to say what is an exploit and what is not.
And if it is not clear whether or not something is an exploit from the developers of the game, then that doesn't give any of the players any right to decide if it is an exploit or not.
Mind you, harassment is a different topic, and is not the same thing as exploitive behavior.
When did the definitions of farming, power leveling, and exploiting get all merged into one heaping mess?
Farming is not bad. It is a staple of any crafting based MMO. Heck, it is the basic action we all do in CoH/CoV. It is the fundamental function by which we advance our selected characters, learn new powersets, and increase wealth in the game.
Exploiting is just what it sounds like, exploiting a bug. Just because people put exploits into a farm does not instantly turn every single farm into an exploit.
Same goes with Power leveling. The action of farming is the fastest method of Power leveling, but that does not make every farm a power level fest, or every farmer a evil Power leveler.
The only two negative effects I have seen are teams and the market.
Market is a result of inflation, accelerated by the increase in farming. It is not the result of farming directly. We are likely due for a crash at some point, when the people with all the money get bored and move on the greener pastures.
Teams I can see the effects to a point. However most of the people who are drawn to AE are the ones who would bring a PUG down. Better they stay there than causing me debt.
Quote:
How is this relevant to CoH, where 99.9% of all farming takes place in private instances?|
Originally Posted by Kiralyn
Ah, but in a multiplayer game, some playstyles can impact on the other players.
For example, in some other games, someone might enjoy spending four hours wiping out all the NPCs in the opposing faction's newbie zone..... thereby ruining the playstyle of all those newbies. Especially if it's a non-PvP game. |
Quote:
| The "hurting other players" thing is also one of the main arguements against the RMTers in many games - the RMT crowd ends up distorting the in-game economy, screwing things up for anyone who doesn't use their services. |
Farmers are not in violation of anything and associating them with RMTers is foolish.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
You said it yourself,|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
No, in other words there is no such thing as an "exploit" as defined by our local Morality Police & Fainting Couch Society.
|
Quote:
| Unless you're interacting directly with another human player, you can do whatever you like to any in-game entity with impunity. |
Quote:
When MA came out and a certain segment of the playerbase lost their minds because their gameplay changed during online play like the box warned them it would.
|
Originally Posted by Calash
When did the definitions of farming, power leveling, and exploiting get all merged into one heaping mess?
|
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
I think you're using the concept of exploitation a bit too freely, Atheism.
|
Originally Posted by Atheism
As long as no one else knows about your exploiting, there shouldn't be a problem.
|
Quote:
I don't exploit anything and I don't care who knows how I spend my game time (mostly ignoring MA, farming Dark Astoria, playing around on the market, occasionally running solo door missions).
|
Originally Posted by Atheism
You said it yourself,
As long as no one else knows about your exploiting, there shouldn't be a problem. |
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
You farm Dark Astoria?! |
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I don't exploit anything and I don't care who knows how I spend my game time (mostly ignoring MA, farming Dark Astoria, playing around on the market, occasionally running solo door missions).
|
*goes and starts a thread about how Dark Astoria is ruining CoX*
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
When MA came out and a certain segment of the playerbase lost their minds because their gameplay changed during online play like the box warned them it would.
|
Wait wait WAIT!!! You mean the box wasn't joking??
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Calash
Wait wait WAIT!!! You mean the box wasn't joking??
|
Please stop trying to say your playstyle is better than mine.
You pay your 15 bucks a month and I will pay mine. It really is THAT simple.