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All the controversy is on Turbo_Ski. 
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
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I disagree. It's not just rare, it's incredibly rare.
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Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
But this is talking about facing a total team wipe and trying to save the team to regroup. And that is a rare situation if you're playing your FFer properly, though it DOES happen.
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That pisses you off, doesn't it?
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Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
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All the controversy is on Turbo_Ski. |
FF, you took a power that would normally be highly situational on a team and used it as a brilliant "oh ****" button. A perfect example of quick thinking that probably prevented a wipe. Bravo for original thinking under pressure.
You didn't get kicked for using Force Bubble. You got kicked for bruising a bad Tanks ego.
"He may be arrogant, but he happens to be correct" - Ellis
"The server is full of crazies" - New_Dark_Age
Rainbow Arcana / Diamond D: Legion of Freedom - Virtue
lof.guildportal.com
Final note before I head to bed. This is also the reason why I run my own teams now. If someone, ANYONE on my team tried to aggro a whole room at once with the chance to get my team killed, they'd have about 5 seconds to give a good explanation before I decided to kick them.
I don't care if herding a whole room is worth "max eXPeez efficiency", my team's health is #1 priority. Always. I HATE team wipes.
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I only hate them if people refuse to learn from them and thus they get repeated more times than necessary. I also hate when 1-2 early team wipes make people think it's a bad team and this they quit when in fact it is a good team, but the levels are off enough that people just need to stick with it and after a couple of missions things will smooth out. I guess I really don't look at team wipes as a bad thing outside of how much it will slow us down at the time it happens.
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Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
I HATE team wipes.
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Because nothing is more fun for the player of that melee AT than being the only (or at least the last) survivor of team-wipe they caused in their arrogance?|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
You're purposely making playing a melee AT not fun anymore by simply using force bubble and you're being a jerk when asked to stop using it. Yes I would have kicked you immediately for such an attitude.
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Don't like knockback? Slot sprint and press a movement key every now and then.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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If the melee AT thats playing aggro monkey cant keep aggro off the squishies, what use are they?
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
You're purposely making playing a melee AT not fun anymore by simply using force bubble and you're being a jerk when asked to stop using it. Yes I would have kicked you immediately for such an attitude.
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Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
Arc ID 58363!
So enemies were Force Bubbled into a small enough area where a failing tank could actually redeem himself by aggro capping with his gauntlets and aura and somehow its a bad thing?
Edit: Sometimes members of a team can act too early on a group being herded, sometimes its better to wait for consolidation by the tank from outside of perception range or LoS. Those being pulled maybe looking for anyone as taunt durations only last for so long. It may say 13,5 sec base duration for example but that may be resisted.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
If it was really the knockback component that saved teams for you, then you would be using Repulsion Field instead not Force Bubble. You're only using Force bubble for the Repel effect which doesn't stop foes from performing attacks like knockback does.
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You really should PLAY forcefields before you spout off.
Force Bubble has a 1% chance of doing KD. That's not what you use it for though.
1) You use it to get melee mobs off the squishies in an emergency. This has 2 beneficial effects.
a) A reduction in damage. Most melee favoring mobs only have 1 or 2 ranged attacks, these attacks are usually longer animating than melee attacks and they do ~60% of the damage that melee attacks do.
b) Mobs in melee that are pushed out take a measurable amount of time to switch from melee AI to ranged AI.
This gives the time that is needed for most players to pop an inspiration or 3, use Aid Self, or to let stacked defense debuffs (such as Warriors and Romans do) expire.
2) In the proper locations on some maps Force Bubble can push MoBs out of the line of sight of teammates completely preventing further attacks until those teammates are ready to begin attacking again.
3) The perfect time to use Force Bubble is exactly as the OP did. In a situation where a tank that is poor at controlling aggro has exceed the aggro cap and hard hitting melee Mobs are closing on the squishies.
4) With a tiny amount of practice Force Bubble can be use to precisely pin mobs in corners, at the end of corridors, or against objects. Best of all you can bunch things up that get all strung out because they prefer range (like many council mobs, Cabal, and Fir Bolg) or things that resist taunt (like Cabal). This allows AoE focused ranged toons to quickly eliminate troublesome MoBs.
5) Pinning Mobs in a corner as the OP did also allows the tank to quickly re-establish aggro control on those mobs once the tank drops below the aggro cap. Those mobs aren't going anywhere and a tank that has exceeded the aggro cap sprays MoBs as badly as any poorly used KB ever could just a little slower but with out providing any mitigation since they are both closing on the squishies and aren't using any time standing back up. Once the tank has re-established aggro control the FF user can detoggle Force Bubble though usually the on the ball force fielder has given the blaster enough time to dispatch them before the tank has dropped back below the aggro cap.
Pushing MoBs with a 9 foot radius repulsion field isn't going to save anyone and it IS going to spray MoBs all willy nilly since the angle is so much narrower in the close quarters required to even try to use repulsion field in this way.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Force bubble also hurts fast paced teams that lay down slick/rain type pets immediately at the start of combat. By the time you shoved them haphazardly into a corner they would have already been dead because you just blew it out of placed AoEs.
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I have on several occasions pushed mobs that the tank has herded out of RoA back into RoA (and other rain powers). It's very easy if the Archer has hasten active as the center of the RoA psuedo pet is clearly defined by the hasten artifact.
If you are a good Force Fielder, and talk to your team at the beginning of the mission, your debuffers will know to drop their patches in corners where your Force Bubble can not only push the mobs and stragglers, but keep them pinned in, even if there are more mobs than the debuff can affect or more than the tank can control the aggro on.
Its the same as when working with an Energy Blaster, tanks and debuffers should be working up against corners and objects where the mobs will be going anyway and increasing team effectiveness rather than reducing it.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Considering I've played most of the sets described in the OP's team makeup, I have a few thoughts...
The WP tank, without taunt or any AoE's definately bit off more than he could chew. Not that he couldn't SURVIVE the whole room of aggro, but he wouldn't be able to maintain aggro with strictly an aura and Gauntlet. (I've run tanks with and without Taunt...there is no substitute for Taunt as an aggro manager).
Without a hard aggro tool like Taunt, the fire blasters were stealing the aggro, causing them to faceplant. There threat level probably shot through the roof. I have a 50 fire blaster and remember many times how I stole all aggro from tanks on the team.
I also have a 50 grav/storm controller. Once he starts immobing/holding, he also quickly steals aggro. As someone stated above, and I find to be true, baddies don't like to be pushed/pulled/held/etc. They make a B-line right for you.
Then I've played a FF Defender. Force Bubble came in handy in the OP's instance as an oh Sh** reaction. The OP accomplished what the tank could not by getting the baddies all in one spot.
Any other team would have apprecieated this. The blasters can now take advantage of their AoE's, the controller can get more baddies under his/her AoE immob's and getting Containment, and the tank should have appreciated that they were all in one spot to take advantage of RttC.
Instead, the tank got mad that the defender tanked better than he did and kicked the Defender. Overreaction? Yes. Had the Force Bubble negatively impacted the outcome, then the arguement would go to the tank. Instead, it shows the immaturity of the tank.
Using my grav/storm controller, I made an Ice tank very mad because I could tank better than him. He got mad and quit. Was it my fault he would attract too many enemies that his aggro cap could handle, thereby wiping most of the team? No. I simply did my thing showing "herding" was not necessary and the tank should now his limits (limits regarding team safety, not his survivability, which are two seperate things).
I definately side with the OP on this. The only thing I would say is maybe the he shouldn't have antagonized the tank (also the team leader) right off the bat. Maybe next time just explain why you are doing what you are doing. If the tank (or next offender) still acts stupidly, just say "ok", stop whatever you are doing, quit the team, and watch the team wipe. Then just send private tells to the rest of the team and see if they want to start another team minus the leader...
Wouldn't Turbo Ski have kicked the Defender simply for being Force Fields?
*EDIT*
What about the Blasters who died?
The Tank who aggro'd over the aggro cap and let aggro run away and who only had one aoe and no taunt?
The controller who apparently had no control?
Would there have been anyone not kicked?
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You really think that the FFer is only SUPPOSED TO USE 4 POWERS? Last time I checked there were 9 powers in that set and a secondary that has 9 powers too. Clearly FF must be way over powered if all that are required are the 4 you mentioned.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
An FF defender's job is to just keep bubbles up on allies, keep dispersion up, and keep spamming repulsion bomb. If it really hits the fan you pull out repulsion field not force bubble to save a team, and such a scenario is incredibly rare when you're already so close to the defense soft cap. It is not beneficial in the slightest to attempt to herd foes into a corner with a fat radius force bubble, if that is what you want to do then reroll storm and pick up hurricane instead.
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You'd be surprised. My FFers have their hands full keeping leroying teammates alive even though I can soft cap them all if they play smart. There are also powers that can debuff defense and Auto Hit powers that require the FFer to use their wits. Soft capped defenses still allow 5% of damage in AND at level 32 when you can get Force Bubble you "may not" have all your defensive powers slotted for maximum defense since you need a good number of end reducers to do your job full time.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
For more to be at the herdpoint than the aggro cap someone else other than the tanker would of had to of attracted some of their own or for two examples pets are spawned or ambushers come.
Edit: But if he doesn't know what aggro cap is and initially tried to attract more then upon losing aggro at herdpoint from lack of consolidation time then the congaline happens.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
When a Tank Over-Aggros that many mobs, that Tanker deserves all they get.
Honestly. Aggroing the entire room-of-death with just RTTC and Gauntlet, on an Energy Melee toon? That tanker is a moron, and you're better off without them. No single tanker, let alone a WP/Energy tanker can hold that much aggro. Two groups from that room at once are fine if you're aggro-heavy, all 5 from the central area at once are not. You're talking upwards of 30 mobs, which unless you have rain or slick powers will quickly overrun your team. Maybe, just maybe, if the controller had been on the ball, the tank had securely held one aggro-cap's worth of mobs, the blasters could "joust" and the rest of the team were all defence-softcapped then they'd have been ok. Maybe. But from the OP the tanker comes across as a glory-hunting pillock.
ForceFielder deserves Kudos for quick thinking. Tanker deserves a slap upside the head and pointed in the direction of RTTC's activation and duration times. Want to bet it was unslotted for Taunt Duration and they were fighting +2s or higher too...?
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It scares me when I agree w/ DC |
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
So tank over aggros, can't control aggro, team starts dying, FF defender turns on Force Bubble to save remaining team.
Tank gets upset that repel was used on mobs he wanted for his own regen. Tank tells defender to stop despite team dying cuz tank wasn't holding aggro. Defender tells tank to get bent. Defender gets kicked. Turbo Ski defends tank, demonstrating lack of reading skills. LOL |
Reading is good, ok Turbo?
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Originally Posted by Backhand
(I've run tanks with and without Taunt...there is no substitute for Taunt as an aggro manager).
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Don't agree with that, my ice tank has two taunt auras and no taunt power and can manage sometimes more than the aggro cap because of the slotting, timing and quick movements. although i do admit it would be better with all three but i still manage to keep aggro off the entire team no matter what sets i've got on the team. (and thats included a FS'd Fire blaster
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Mr DJ, ur avatar is HAWT.
I think the important think is that the OP has moved on.
When things got dicey, he did what he had to do to make sure the team didn't all face plant and wake up in the hospital or the base.
Since you got kicked for it, there is one less person you have to deal with.
But don't put him or her on ignore. You'll need the space for gold farmer spam.
I read just fine folks, I just think the OP is full of it.
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Should also note that those two taunt auras from Ice Armor are Mag 4 and the only other set w/ a stupid amount of aggro attention would probably be Dark Armor >_> Death Shroud, Dark Regeneration, Cloak of Fear, Oppressive Gloom, all Mag 4 Taunt, meanwhile Shield Defense (though Shield Charge gets Mag 4) and Willpower get left out w/ Mag 3 Auras.
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Originally Posted by Kindeller
Don't agree with that, my ice tank has two taunt auras and no taunt power and can manage sometimes more than the aggro cap because of the slotting, timing and quick movements. although i do admit it would be better with all three but i still manage to keep aggro off the entire team no matter what sets i've got on the team. (and thats included a FS'd Fire blaster
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If you had read my posts much earlier in the thread, you would have known I thought the OP was full of it from the start.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
Post Deleted by Moderator_08
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The only person with a bigger ego than the tanker in the OP's story is the OP himself, that's a red flag right off the bat that he is full of it. Also I would have kicked him regardless of his AT and build if he gave anyone in one of my teams that kind of attitude.
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You must be very lonely.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
The only person with a bigger ego than the tanker in the OP's story is the OP himself, that's a red flag right off the bat that he is full of it. Also I would have kicked him regardless of his AT and build if he gave anyone in one of my teams that kind of attitude.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
If you had read my posts much earlier in the thread, you would have known I thought the OP was full of it from the start.
The only person with a bigger ego than the tanker in the OP's story is the OP himself, that's a red flag right off the bat that he is full of it. Also I would have kicked him regardless of his AT and build if he gave anyone in one of my teams that kind of attitude. |
Play a lot of plant? You sure are a *****-ly type.
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson
The truth is that Turbo is right about one thing, we don't KNOW exactly what took place there, all we have is the OP's word.
What I DO know is that Force Bubble is just as good a damage mitigating power as the rest but requires experience to know when and where to use it. I also know that there are times and situations where the bubbles do fail, (Rularuu are one example) and that's what the rest of the tools are for.
Since I always have Repulsion Field on for my own protection as soon as I get it, then in the situation mentioned, I would have Detained the "big bad", turned on Force Bubble and Force Bolted as many targets as possible, PFFing when the heat got too great.
But this is talking about facing a total team wipe and trying to save the team to regroup. And that is a rare situation if you're playing your FFer properly, though it DOES happen.