So, if there's no difference between the two and you like the Corrupter "attitude" and playstyle better...
...why are you on THIS board again?
Is it just entirely to down on Defenders? I'm going to have to go with Option E here and leave the thread. I thought when you first started here that you were better than this and I tried to keep a fair mind and actually be fair about you to others and even "stood up" for you a couple of times.
I guess I was wrong, good luck.
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I try and save idiots from themselves. Because i think it sharpens my skills as a defender if I can pull it off. *shrug* If i can keep a team of idiots alive, god knows what i can do on a good team. And if i can't, well, i have vengeance. |
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Let them die, it's wrong to reward awful playing and deny oneself vengeance.
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Kind of like a tf i was on last night... The team i ran an itf with last night was lead by a guy who honestly belived he could 2 box an itf... being the lead and only tank... and a blaster... both of which were mentors to Sk's... He was kind of a waste to the team, but it had 4 other really top notch players on it, and me, who's i'd range as "ok". We won... it took a while... it hads a few major annoyoncs as the leader fumbled with 2 heros... a few long afks... at least once or twice i was ready to just say screw it and leave... but i didn't... for the other teammates that were carrying their weight on the team.
Of course... part of me is kind of annoyed that this guys going to go off thinking he accaully CAN effectily 2 box an itf, and some poor people will have to suffer through it in the future... but can you do... leave and potentually screw over hard working teammates for the sake of one *****, or stay and give him a false since of addiquticy?? I was kind of proplexing there at the end for me. But then, with 28 merits, i got a Num Heal/Recharge and made a ton of money... so i consider it a net win. LOL
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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So this "corruptor attitude" is what you call all the offender builds and any defender build that provides both damage multiplying and mitigation?|
Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
So, if there's no difference between the two and you like the Corrupter "attitude" and playstyle better...
...why are you on THIS board again? Is it just entirely to down on Defenders? I'm going to have to go with Option E here and leave the thread. I thought when you first started here that you were better than this and I tried to keep a fair mind and actually be fair about you to others and even "stood up" for you a couple of times. I guess I was wrong, good luck. |
Are you rejecting all those that play Offenders as part of the defender boards?
All can say is the tank IMO got mad that the bubbler was taking all his glory without even realizing that the team is pretty much dying because he wants to look like a "hero" and all the bubbler was doing was trying to save the team that was alive.....seems like whoever is on the tanks side must be either be friends with him or had a bad experience in the past with a bubbler so they mark all bubblers as failures even when there doing something for the good of the team....IMO
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More like I mark them as a failure for failing at mitigating damage through Repulsion Bomb, Ally shields, and Dispersion. OP already stated he didn't have Repulsion bomb so that's a rather large damage mitigation and damage loss right there and instead used a power that does almost no mitigation, pisses off melee players in general, and is far too large to be used surgically for repel positioning.
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Originally Posted by UnleashedPower
All can say is the tank IMO got mad that the bubbler was taking all his glory without even realizing that the team is pretty much dying because he wants to look like a "hero" and all the bubbler was doing was trying to save the team that was alive.....seems like whoever is on the tanks side must be either be friends with him or had a bad experience in the past with a bubbler so they mark all bubblers as failures even when there doing something for the good of the team....IMO
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Quick reply to Turbo:
I guess it boils down to:
1.) The OP not playing cold;
2.) Poor reading comprehension;
3.) Disbelief that powers that are usually crappy and best-avoided can sometimes be useful.
FWIW, I've used Force Bubble in tight spaces to much hillarity. And ramming hordes into a tight corner is, IME, the all-time best use of the power since you can launch rains, debuffs, and all sorts of whackiness being assured that mobs are crammed in as tight as possible, maximizing AoEs and minimzing runners.
It just happens to be hella tough to pull off -- something the OP should get kudos for.
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Except he already stated that he positioned them all in a corner, which is very easy to do with Force Bubble actually.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
More like I mark them as a failure for failing at mitigating damage through Repulsion Bomb, Ally shields, and Dispersion. OP already stated he didn't have Repulsion bomb so that's a rather large damage mitigation and damage loss right there and instead used a power that does almost no mitigation, pisses off melee players in general, and is far too large to be used surgically for repel positioning.
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Then you rode in here with your "FORCE BUBBLE SUKCS!" babble, ignoring all the counter-arguements and just repeating the same tosh until people give up and either leave the thread or put you on ignore.
It was a drastic situation (tank not tanking, teammates dieing) and you used drastic measures. You were kicked undesservedly, which probably just amounted to saving you further headdache.
You were not the one in the wrong, don't listen to the haters who have reading comprehension issues.
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I like WP as a set, but I play tanks to tank, so I hardly play my WP/stone. My Ice tanks, or Dark/stone do get played. My Dark/stone will likely be the one that gets to 50 first just because it's a lesser played build and yet awesome due to the stacking AoE stuns. It's end issues are overrated as well.
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Originally Posted by KingSnake
My willpower tank has taunt... and like 3 aoe attacks (WP/BA) and i can still barely hold a LARGE spawn's attation completely. I've never seen a tank have such argo managment issues... I mean, i can get by, i can hold MOST of the argo, and keep bosses/EB's/AV's on me, but i can't keep a whole spawn fixed on me the whole time like some stoners or ices or fires can. I welcome any help i can get.
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It's clear to me that you don't play FF/ and haven't a clue what you are talking about. There are advanced techniques involved in using Force Bubble that have nothing to do with saving idiots and are quite valuable on teams. Teams of this type are also exactly when Vengance will be of no use to you. FFers that rely on Vengance are lazy and sloppy.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
All the situations you would give on how Force Bubble saves teams only occurs the majority of the team is pants on head retarded since you would have to be to die at that close to the defense soft cap and repulsion bomb being spammed. Popping vengeance would easily put the team over the soft cap (which is never a waste when lacking def debuff resist) as well as healing them, boosting their Tohit and damage which fulfills both saving the team and not rewarding idiocy.
Force bubble will only save ***** ridden teams, but does nothing for average or experienced teams. I however don't accept the notion that a defender must always babysit and protect every ***** that decides to go on a suicidal fling at the expense of the team's safety like you do. |
FF has all the tools needed to prevent/halt the defense cascade problem you pose. You can see when someone is taking damage through the shields. You can tell when defense debuffs are being applied by watching the player icon tray and you can halt the cascade by using Force Bolt, Repulsion Bomb, Force Bubble or a power from your secondary (or primary in the case of a controller) that that will allow the defense debuffs to expire.
Even on experienced teams there are times that you may need to save someone that got into a bad situation through no fault of their own (Adds, Ambushes, or "Horrors" actually playing non-farm AE content that you don't have every spawn point or mob power combination memorized on).
You like steam rolling teams? The best way to keep it moving is to keep everyone on their feet and doing their job. That is the defender's job on the team. On good teams, with good defenders, against tough mobs you can barely tell that a defender is there. It feels just like fighting a pack of easy mobs but the absence of a good defender in that situation is keenly felt.
You also forget that Hero side is much different from Villian side. Hero side ATs are very top heavy having great strengths counter balanced by greater weaknesses. The Defender AT is designed for teaming hero side to cover those weaknesses. Villian side is different. Villian ATs are more balanced and rely much less on buffs, debuffs or other team members.
Blue side a team functions best as a team. Red side is a bunch of players soloing together. While your attitude and play style may be a good fit Red side its a poor fit on Blue.
I'm going to have to go with Phil on this one and take his option "E".
I'd say "see ya around on CoX" but I honestly hope that I don't.
One last question for ya. I don't expect you to answer it and I won't be checking on this thread any more to look for a reply but for the sake of the other posters here.....
How good is your attitude, play style, and beloved Vengance on an MoSTF?
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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No need for vengeance since MoSTF attempts are never PuGs. MoSTF requires either an excessive amount of support stacking or a tank + dedicated healer + Support + Misc damage dealers and requires everyone to not be retarded.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
How good is your attitude, play style, and beloved Vengance on an MoSTF?
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Uh, I was backing you up last night, but this over-board. |
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
You're purposely making playing a melee AT not fun anymore by simply using force bubble and you're being a jerk when asked to stop using it. Yes I would have kicked you immediately for such an attitude.
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There is a time and a place for all powers to be used and all AT's can adapt to the use of any of power by any other player. If the melee characters can't keep the enemy away from the squishes they have a right to protect themselves and the melee players are jerks for thinking otherwise.
For the team's best interest, all should work in a way that augments each others powers.
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I don't think that I have taken force bubble on any of my bubblers (yet).
My controller bubblers tend to be built for melee combat so that their "big" bubble protects the melee characters; plus if I fight the same enemy as the tank and I don't have to worry about gaining agro.
The force bubble can be a very good save if the tank looses agro and that is what happened in the OP's case.
Like I said, it also can be very useful to shield the squishies when the melee characters "drop the ball" and let enemy pass them - which pretty much happens very mob that I have ever fought.
If player had force bubble up and were "on follow" to the tank and was knocking everything too far away from the tank to get to because they were constantly near the tank,and refused to stop doing so -- then I can see a problem that would involve kicking the bubbler.
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That's strange. I successfully PuGged an MoSTF on Justice Server during 2XP weekend on my Empath. I had never teamed previously with any of the players on that MoSTF.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
No need for vengeance since MoSTF attempts are never PuGs. MoSTF requires either an excessive amount of support stacking or a tank + dedicated healer + Support + Misc damage dealers and requires everyone to not be retarded.
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I found that communication and team work were the key to success.
I think I agree with Smurphy's post.
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Originally Posted by Smurphy
I have no knowledge of you or what you are like in the real world... but concerning City of Heroes I have no respect for your opinion.
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I did. And had before you posted, and continued down. |
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I have. Perhaps you should take your own advice and read the thread in it's entirety. I fully support the OP's actions and view points (and have posted such) as they mirror my own.
I fervently disavow play styles such as Turbo's. While it may work well for the defender inherent to have several defeated teammates, it isn't team friendly play, and it's the antithesis of the defender AT. |
Turbo jumped of the deep-end, but I did agree with the first posts about letting the team fall if they were blindly running after a player that didn't have a grip of what was going on - like the OP's situation.
I have both dived into help when I see my team getting in over-it's-head and decided "that's way too bad a situation and I'm not going to fall because they are obviously diving into a situation that the team can not handle."
My backing of Turbo came the comments in regards to that. The "let them fall in order to let them learn a lesson" is what I read out of Turbo's original posts. Since I think that is one of the two viable options ( 1) save the day or 2) save yourself), I felt that Turbo's position at that point was viable.
Maybe you read something different into it at that point, or I wasn't reading the text the same what that you were.
At any rate, back to the original post -- I still think that the reason that the OP was kicked was Tankertude and not because the Forcebubble was interfering with the team as a whole.
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NO. Not similar, not in the slightest. Should your story recant something to the effect of... "I'd aggroed far more then I could keep the attention ...many of the mob split off and was attacking the rest of the team, including downing some players... the bubbler hit force bubble for the 1st time and kept the mob at bay while the other dead toons sought to recover... this really irked me cause no bubbler should ever have, nor ever use forcebubble under any and all circumstances... etc.. " Then your story would merit being called similar. However, looks like you'd an experience that was grossly opposite. An unskilled bubbler.|
Originally Posted by Agonus
I was in a similar situation over the weekend. I actually thought this thread might have been about me.
I was an Inv/EM Tank (created for theme, now finally shelved. I know EM sucks for AoE.) leading a full PuG. There were two other melee characters on the team, and a bubbler. When mobs were in the clear, I would jump in first, Taunt, Whirling Hands, then the other meleers would close in, followed by the ranged. Typing that out makes it seem slower than it was, but it happened pretty quick. We were doing pretty well, I don't build power PuGs, I take who I can get. We might of had one or two people drop (Running level 47 stuff at +4) but thing were going pretty well. Then I noticed about 1/3 of the way into the mission, something was pushing the mobs -off- of me and into walls. The meleers proceeded to chase down the mobs. I realized it was Force Bubble. I asked the Bubbler to not use the power so much. The Scrappers agreed. The bubble went away. We moved along, and then the bubble came back. It got to the point where the Bubbler was pushing mobs off of me and into other mobs. About 2/3's of the way through I told him I would not warn him again to stop using the power. After that, the bubble never came back. Granted I left the group after that mission to log, but still. |
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Originally Posted by Barata
With that statement, I don't think you deserve to have players on your team. The defender in the OP was looking at a potential team wipe and did what a good defender does..... anything necessary to keep the rest of the team alive...
I'll be so happy when they put the new mechanism in place so people can choose spawn sizes. Then all the scrappers and tanks who feel a team just gets in their way can go play by themselves. |
Then they can 'manage' ALL the aggro they want! Even multi mobs that Can't break off and after the team because of hitting the aggro cap![QUOTE=Smurphy;2067474]Wouldn't Turbo Ski have kicked the Defender simply for being Force Fields?QUOTE]
No.. I don't think so... I think it'd be for having the gall to take forcebubble, when Herr Ski's apparent stance is Forcebubble has no place, anywhere, for any reason, whatsoever. Foolish for any to think otherwise...
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Originally Posted by Atheism
The OP the reminds me of a story that I have when I played with my Invul/Axe...The story goes is that I get invited to a team to run Nemesis. I hate fighting these guys... I noticed that the Defender kept his Force Bub on at ALL times. The Defender annoyed me so much with his damn bubble keeping everything out of melee range...If ya'll are wondering, I wasn't herding. I was just hopping from spawn to spawn trying not to snap because of the Force Bub.
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Originally Posted by Peacemoon
Do you know what you sound like? Someone with a grudge against force bubble who isn't thinking logically.
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How expansive is your archetype playing experience- (not belittling you here, and feel free to herald yourself as an all encompasingly skilled player, the point is still solid)? I know there are many others that have intentionally expanded on their archetype experiences.
They come away from this diversifying with an exponentially increasing understanding of their strengths and weaknesses, other toon type's str and weak... an innate understanding and realization for 'time and place' for near any powers, tactics and skills. Given the scenario presented, at face value, without adding 'maybe was running FB all the time, maybe was afk a lot, maybe I just don't like the word he choice at that point in his description..." without adding all sorts of suppositions and keeping to THAT scenario AS presented... Hell of a job Fury. Come to Infinity, we have cookies
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Damn, so many wish I was capable of being this short and to the point.... Damn well put
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Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
So tank over aggros, can't control aggro, team starts dying, FF defender turns on Force Bubble to save remaining team.
Tank gets upset that repel was used on mobs he wanted for his own regen. Tank tells defender to stop despite team dying cuz tank wasn't holding aggro. Defender tells tank to get bent. Defender gets kicked. Turbo Ski defends tank, demonstrating lack of reading skills. LOL |
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You know when I read your first post on this thread Turbo Ski, I thought 'wow, thats harsh'. After this post at least now I understand where you were coming from. |
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
More like I mark them as a failure for failing at mitigating damage through Repulsion Bomb, Ally shields, and Dispersion. OP already stated he didn't have Repulsion bomb so that's a rather large damage mitigation and damage loss right there and instead used a power that does almost no mitigation, pisses off melee players in general, and is far too large to be used surgically for repel positioning.
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Its a pity you didn't start with this post, which actually demonstrates some understanding of the powerset and suggests possibly better strategies, instead of just being purely negative saying "I would have kicked you too".
L50 as a Tank, Mastermind, Soldier, Blaster, Defender & Brute so far. Still trying testing alts in search of my 'main'. So many possibilities!
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No, Phil has not been the one steadfastly stuck on absolutes. Unless Phil corrects me, that certainly NOT what was being claimed.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
So this "corruptor attitude" is what you call all the offender builds and any defender build that provides both damage multiplying and mitigation?
Are you rejecting all those that play Offenders as part of the defender boards? |
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I'm not a fan of anecdotes that are crafted to be propganda to promote one AT while simultaneously defaming another AT with 20 or so people immediately showering them with praise for doing so. It's even more insulting when they use a power that has a history of being used to grief melee ATs in the early days of CoH and CoV when outdoor farming was commonplace. Then really rub it in by having the protagonist be a heroically painted jerk in response to the antagonist's request to cease and have it all painted as an injustice when the protagonist is kicked from the team for his jerk response. Tie it up with the moral being that the smart defender performed a good deed and was kicked solely for doing the good deed and that the other AT is full of jerks and idiots. |
Originally Posted by Terse
You know when I read your first post on this thread Turbo Ski, I thought 'wow, thats harsh'. After this post at least now I understand where you were coming from.
Its a pity you didn't start with this post, which actually demonstrates some understanding of the powerset and suggests possibly better strategies, instead of just being purely negative saying "I would have kicked you too". |
Anyone that already agrees that defenders are holier than all other ATs will immediately jump up and praise the OP and flame the hell out of anyone that disagrees or has a differing opinion from them.
Thing is these type of pro-defender propganda anecdotes happen at least once a week on the defender boards, so you'll have to forgive me for immediately coming off as negative here.
You did good. The tank was a jerk. Ignore Turbo Ski.
Nuff said.
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Thank you for proving my exact point in the post above yours.
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Originally Posted by Dark_Voltage
You did good. The tank was a jerk. Ignore Turbo Ski.
Nuff said. |
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That is fascinating. I will now repost the original post in this thread as Turbo_Ski reads it. Once you read the below, Turbo_Ski's position is much more clear. Apparently we did not have the secret decoder ring needed to properly read the original post until now.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
I'm not a fan of anecdotes that are crafted to be propganda to promote one AT while simultaneously defaming another AT with 20 or so people immediately showering them with praise for doing so. It's even more insulting when they use a power that has a history of being used to grief melee ATs in the early days of CoH and CoV when outdoor farming was commonplace. Then really rub it in by having the protagonist be a heroically painted jerk in response to the antagonist's request to cease and have it all painted as an injustice when the protagonist is kicked from the team for his jerk response. Tie it up with the moral being that the smart defender performed a good deed and was kicked solely for doing the good deed and that the other AT is full of jerks and idiots.
Anyone that already agrees that defenders are holier than all other ATs will immediately jump up and praise the OP and flame the hell out of anyone that disagrees or has a differing opinion from them. Thing is these type of pro-defender propganda anecdotes happen at least once a week on the defender boards, so you'll have to forgive me for immediately coming off as negative here. |
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Originally Posted by Fury_Flechette
Apparently, I committed a mortal sin by pushing mobs against the walls when the tank (the leader and moron like all tankers) failed to hold aggro.
The team was compromised of a WP/Energy tank (team leader, no taunt, no AoEs, useless like all tankers), a bunch of squishies (mostly blasters and 1 controller) and me, the lone defender (FF/Sonic, supreme amongst my teammates). We enter a radio mission against Freakshow and the team is doing relatively well, because so far the numbers of spawn were reasonable in size and my defender was awesome, singlehandendly protecting the whole team. Then we get to the one room in the lab map, the one where there's a ramp leading onto a platform which in turn has two other ramps that lead to a mezzanine that circles and is above the first platform. The tank decides to wade in and bring the entire room to the corridor because every tanker has to play that way in order to try to prove their awesomeness. Obviously, it wasn't a good idea (duh, it was a tankers idea) since there were so many Freaks and while the tank did manage to get their attention, the Freaks started to scatter and go after the rest of the team once they were in the corridor. Within a few seconds, a couple of the blasters dropped and the rest of the team was injured. To buy them some time, I threw up force bubble and trapped about 17 or 18 Freaks against the corner of the corridor. Mind you, this was the first time I used force bubble in the entire time we were teamed. Apparently, this act enraged our tank, and I am sure every tanker ever on the earth also felt insulted, the twits. Tank: "Force bubble herding = fail. Stop it!" Me: "Oh you mean like tankers that can't hold aggro = fail." Tank: "People should NEVER use knockback on teams." Me: "They're all in one corner, it's not like they're scattered" And that was it. I got kicked. I realize that force bubble can be obnoxious if used badly, but I didn't leave it on the entire time, and given the situation the team was in, I thought it was entirely appropriate. The mobs weren't scattered but neatly stacked in one corner, enough for the blaster to down them with a couple of AoEs. The tank with his weak taunt aura (RttC) and his single target energy melee attacks couldn't hold aggro well enough, pathetic lout. I generally, don't tell tanks that they have to take taunt (I have a tauntless ice/ss tanker, that is awesome, almost like a defender), but his build really seemed to need it. I know that my response was a bit on the snippy side, but I found it ironic that I was penalized for using my powers when the tanker couldn't really fulfill his role. I also got the vibe that somehow I, the lowly defender, was infringing the tank's personal territory and I don't just mean this player, I am talking about tankers in general. Anyways, that's been the first time I've been kicked from a team in close to 3 years. Stupid Tankers and armored toons everywhere should just die. |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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that better be a Fire/Kin Corrupter, otherwise there's no excuse for a Fire/Kin Controller to not use Fire Cages.
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Originally Posted by MrGangstar
Well thats never happened to me. But i was on a team with a dude using caltrops not the exact same thing cuz then they scatter but yea. The dude was like 30 vet or something and the Tank told him. (We were also on a farm atm) So then tank said Plz no more caltrops and so did the fire/kin. Then he said and "O.K". So we ran into another group not even 7 seconds into the mob another pair of caltrops went flying. So almost but not really quite same thing. Your sounds unreasonable and mine sounds EXACTLY reasonable.
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This is the first time on this board that I've been called a liar. What's even more galling is that the accuser has no proof that I've lied/embellished/made up or exaggerated. No, his basis for this is simply that I *must* be lying because my story seems to paint a particular tank in bad light. Somehow, even though I was there and experienced it, I'm just making this up and meanwhile my accuser lobs accusation after accusation without a single iota of proof of his own.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
I'm not a fan of anecdotes that are crafted to be propganda to promote one AT while simultaneously defaming another AT with 20 or so people immediately showering them with praise for doing so. It's even more insulting when they use a power that has a history of being used to grief melee ATs in the early days of CoH and CoV when outdoor farming was commonplace. Then really rub it in by having the protagonist be a heroically painted jerk in response to the antagonist's request to cease and have it all painted as an injustice when the protagonist is kicked from the team for his jerk response. Tie it up with the moral being that the smart defender performed a good deed and was kicked solely for doing the good deed and that the other AT is full of jerks and idiots.
Anyone that already agrees that defenders are holier than all other ATs will immediately jump up and praise the OP and flame the hell out of anyone that disagrees or has a differing opinion from them. Thing is these type of pro-defender propganda anecdotes happen at least once a week on the defender boards, so you'll have to forgive me for immediately coming off as negative here. |
What's even funnier is that this same poster freely dispenses advice on how to play the power set in question when it's pretty evidently clear that they've never played force fields. Turbo - what level is your force field defender? Or for that matter, what level is your highest /force field controller or mastermind? I don't comment on cold domination because I've never taken a cold domination character past level 12. I'd have to have some sort of huge hubris to talk about a power set I've never played and in particular make criticism of someone who's actually played that power set into the high levels.
I don't really mind if you don't believe my story or dislike force bubble, but your posts throughout this thread go beyond that. It's a disingenuous sort of character assassination that makes me glad that I don't know you in game or in real life.
It's our JOB to save idiots. If we don't, what are we? Just Corrupters with weak blasts.....
It's that role that defines us.
Also it's silly to say that simply the name "Defender" should imply a vastly different playstyle from Corruptors when there is no mechanical reasoning to suggest such a thing. It's merely a belief that you believe in and not anything based on fact. Defenders and Corruptor support values are very close that any difference gets omitted away for corruptors by the large difference in damage capability and by effect stacking (-tohit/+def, -dmg/+res, etc.) in teams.