In praise of Nerfs!

Before you get all hot under the collar...

Firstly, im not calling for a nerf on any particular power set (Im sure most people have a pretty good idea what should be nerfed, its not difficult)

Secondly, im not using nerf in its original, now forgotten meaning "to render almost useless". Im talking about nerfs as in power balancing, you know, maybe shaving 10 to 20% of the utility of the power (even more maybe, but normally in this ballpark)

Thirdly, im working on the proposition that the game is too easy, bordering on collapse upon itself easy. There is practically nothing in the game you can fail now (LRSF, STF, Sewer Trial, soloing AVs, and VERY occassionally the ITF) even if you crank up to invincible.

Even if you crank this up to invinicble, most end game team, even if poorly equipped SO toons, end up going on autopilot, wishing they where fighting +4s and +5s rather than +2s and +3s.

Now...

Im not calling for a blanket nerf to everything. But I start with the premise: THIS GAME MUST NOT GET ANY EASIER. If you disagee with this you can pretty much stop reading now.

Now, I also start with a premise: THE SETS ARE NOT PERFECTLY BALANCED. Again, if you disagree with this (its pretty hard to), stop reading.

Lastly, the premise: STRIVING TO ACHEIVE BALANCE IS A GOOD THING. Again, if you feel CoX should be a game where some toons are just plain better than others for no reason other than that AT or set is good, I cant argue with you, and you better stop reading.

HOwever, I thinkk most people would agree with these premises. The devs certainly do (except fo the easiness one, which they havent commented on one way or other).

Now, A statement that comes up a lot on the boards is

"Dont nerf x, but bring y and z up to the level of x!"

Sounds good on face value dosent it. Not unreasonable, and justified on many occassions. there certainly are a few sets that need a boost (Psionic blast for blasters is the most outrageously underperforming set I have played - its unbeleivably bad in my opinion).

BUT, what if this was the ONLY way sets were balanced.

Y and Z are buffed to X.

But say there is a miscalculation. Z was buffed ever so slightly to much.

Now, you have to buff X and Y to match Z

But hold on, now Y is a little to strong.

Lets buff X and Z...

...and so on

See what happens?

All sets just edge up in power, almost certainly by ever decreasing imcrememts, but up they go. Now add a new set to the equation (WP, im looking at you).. what if its overpowered?... no problem! buff everything else.

In summary, We need Nerfs. Given how easy this game is at the moment, we need them AS MUCH (if not slightly more) than Buffs.

Not Huge great nuclear bomb nerfs, but judged, sensible nerfs. In small steps.

Not convinced? Well, few people want to play a game (at least in the long term) where they can NEVER acheive a challenge even on the hardest setting.

I, for one, am concerned that the mantra "Give the players what they want" is a coffin nail for the game. That means no nerfs. the devs have lost their bottle. To me, it has the faint smack of desperation. And its just plain bad for the long term health of the game.

So I stand up and say "GO GO NERFBAT". Let the devs nerf. I encourage them to do so. I would like them to do it in a targetted way. I would like them to do it in a minor way. But most of all, I implore them, for the health of the game, to just do it. Thats what some players with a long-term veiw actually want.

With respect, I think that posting and asking for nerfs while telling those that disagree with a certain point to "stop reading now" is a little unrealistic.

It sort of feels like you're saying "Only my opinion counts, it doesn't matter if anyone else enjoys things as they are. I'm asking for you to be shafted but I expect you to just shut up and take it so that I can get the game I want".

And surely the answer to the ease with which we can finish things is to ask for more challenging content??

Also, balance is a tricky thing to achieve - it can be a downward spiral just as easily as the upward spiral that you mention, so that we all end up with flashy powers that are all as useful as brawl.

You need to declare that things are roughly balanced at some stage, but there will always be some powers that shine out - it's almost inevitable.

I like this game as it is now.

If I want challenge, I'll take my PB to fight some bad guys who can mez his backside off.

If I want to feel uber, I use my scrapper who cuts through most things with ease.

The game can satisfy whichever mood I happen to be in.

Balance = reasoning, datamining, player requests and calculated tweaks.
Unbalance = nerfs/buffs too far. Example; PvP

Its morning, a fact shown by the fact I nearly typed norming Ill let other people post, then come back later.

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Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

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There is practically nothing in the game you can fail now

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Those of us who are not gaming gods or don't have stupidly expensive builds or don't play one of the powerful combinations of power sets find it quite easy to fail at some things!

The problem with nerfs is that the way this game was designed simply doesn't lend itself to changes of individual power sets. Take the fire/kin controllers for instance, those tw together make an extremely powerful combination but if either was nerfed, it would wreck that set for other combinations.

If you find the game too easy, try it with a different AT. Don't go around assuming that just because YOU find the game easy on invincible, everybody else is in the same boat. Remember there are lots of 'casual' players, if you make the game ridiculously difficult they'll be stuffed.

I think I agree with the OP in large part.

I don't necessarily think you can't fail anything but yes, a good team of reasonably experienced players can munch through almost everything.

I got a lot of flak from some quarters for my request to increase the level of challenge, but I'm also aware I'm not alone in that way of thinking.

My personal feeling is that when NCSoft took the IP over they swung the pendulum a bit too far towards easy from where Cryptic had it. The "smoothing the XP curve" and massive debt reduction have really removed the challenge from most scenarios, regardless of AT

"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk

Maybe what's needed here then is a new look at the 'difficulty' grading system. Some missions are virtually impossible on heroic for some AT's yet others can do them with relative ease on invincible.

Add an extra level of difficulty, dont keep [censored] up peoples chars.

The game now is silly easy compared to what i was 4 years ago. When it was normal to get +5 bosses in missions, you got over 5 times as much debt per defeat. The hero side respec wasn't as slow, the waves came at fixed intervals regardless if you had defeated the previous or not. Back then you could actually fail at something.

If you fail now it's mostly due to simple stupidity, or not just paying attention. You don't need expensive IO builds to solo normal game content. Sure some people have built character around the very concept of soloing Giant Monsters and AVs, but thats not something everyone should be able to do. IMO, noone should be able to solo an AV or a GM.

I'd love to see the game become a little tougher in terms of spawns and such. Everything shouldn't be soloable. Next time you know there'll be some suggestion that rikti raids should be soloable, and that hamidon should be soloable.

The only way balance could be achieved is if they abolished all ATs all power sets and all bar 1 type of Mob which would be a pretty poor game and more than likely see people leave in droves.

By the very nature of things certain ATs are going to be better at certain things and within those ATs certain power sets are going to perform better in certain situations also there's the question of perception if a single AT or powers set combo are created more than another that can lead to that AT seeming far more powerful than the others. So i say no to your idea of balance as its not balance but dumbing down of the variety that the AT/power groups model represents

As things stand I can create my uber powerful EM/Invul tank who can stand toe to toe with AVs and hit them and cause damage. Or i can create my dark/ice tank who can tank huge spawns of mobs and take almost no damage but cant really damage them him self. i love both these toons even if one takes far longer to lvl than the other and i couldn't have these toons under your idea of balance.

Now back to your first point "THIS GAME MUST NOT GET ANY EASIER" this agree with the game should not get easier tho personally i don't think it has i think I've got better at it as have other people so when we team together were a better team but that aside i wouldn't want to see things become "easier" there for instead nerfing (or debuffing if you prefer) the players powers and ATs why not add challenge and this is something the devs are doing all be it very slowly. Now personally if i was the dev's i would look at the different villain groups and give them some more units Hero side Freaks could get the Sonic tanks and they could create a sonic lieutenant/minion lvl mob as well there's also the sneaky freaks which could begin to appear in freak missions after about lvl 25 (i believe that's the lvl of there mission in villains could be wrong) there number could also be increased to include tanks, etc also bone doctors could be added maybe even give them a few varieties eg healy type buffy type and debuffy type so there's 1 group that could gain 3 new mob types with very little work.

Do the same for the other groups and the old tactics wont be so effective so the game difficulty will increase until the player base adapt just as the difficulty of rikti raised slightly when they gained there new mobs.

the difficulty settings could also be looked at so that difficulties other than heroic offered a increased challenge they could even add more lvls of difficulty.

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Add an extra level of difficulty, dont keep [censored] up peoples chars.

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This appears to be the best and easiest solution.

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Add an extra level of difficulty, dont keep [censored] up peoples chars.

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This appears to be the best and easiest solution.

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I'd like it to be a case of higher mob difficulties (more Lieuts, bosses & EBs appearing in spawns) than simply upping spawn sizes or relative levels.

I can see where you're coming from Cognito but Nerfs aren't the answer, as they would wreck most casual players enjoyment to the point where they could lose interest in the game.

The practical solution is to create a rep (or 2) above invincible.

This would give more experienced players/SG's more of a challenge - without spoiling the balance of the game for others.

I never soloed an AV. I have failed numerous TF's. I even got defeated with my WS/SS brute against a lowly boss.

Yes the game can still be a challenge.

Stop running with elite teams then. Go join some newbie pugs (yes they do still exist) and then tell me there's no challenge left in this game.

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The game now is silly easy compared to what i was 4 years ago

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Wasn't that about the time people were complaining on the forums about the amount of grind in the game?


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If you fail now it's mostly due to simple stupidity, or not just paying attention

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I'd like to add one to that. A lack of knowledge of the various groups you are facing and/or the powersets you are using. i.e. new players. If you make things tough for older players, the new ones won't stand a chance. You have to strike some sort of balance and I'm afraid that keeping both sets happy is probably an exercise in futility.


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IMO, noone should be able to solo an AV or a GM.

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I'd agree with that but looking at some of the attempts to make them tougher by giving them what amounts to virtual god mode has been more frustrating than interesting or exciting. I don't know what the answer is to be honest.

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I think I agree with the OP in large part.

I don't necessarily think you can't fail anything but yes, a good team of reasonably experienced players can munch through almost everything.

I got a lot of flak from some quarters for my request to increase the level of challenge, but I'm also aware I'm not alone in that way of thinking.

My personal feeling is that when NCSoft took the IP over they swung the pendulum a bit too far towards easy from where Cryptic had it. The "smoothing the XP curve" and massive debt reduction have really removed the challenge from most scenarios, regardless of AT

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I don't think the smoothing of the XP curve made things easier as there was definitely something wrong with it there were sections of the road to 50 that just crawled and did some what spoil the over all feel of the game.

However the Det thing god yes change it back it was under cryptic that started it with there 1/2 det for within missions i say abolish this a death any where should result in the same lvl of det with the only exception should be the rikti / undead invasions which should probably receive some form of det reduction but they should still get det (maybe %75 det instead of 100%)

Det should also be at least doubled tho personally i would like to see it tripled to take into account patrol XP.

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I'd like it to be a case of higher mob difficulties (more Lieuts, bosses & EBs appearing in spawns) than simply upping spawn sizes or relative levels.

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I guess a more complete solution might be to add a custom difficulty, where spawn sizes and enemy levels can be set. With the ability to customise SF/TF's to a point, and the mission architect coming out, it might even be possible to recycle existing code to do this.

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The "smoothing the XP curve" and massive debt reduction have really removed the challenge from most scenarios, regardless of AT

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Neither of these has anything at all to do with the difficulty of combat with the enemy - all they did was to up the rewards for success and lower the penalties of failure.

The OP is defending/praising nerfs - which would affect combat with the enemy and not affect rewards/penalties.

i.e. xp smoothing and debt reduction has nothing to do with ability nerfs.

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I guess a more complete solution might be to add a custom difficulty, where spawn sizes and enemy levels can be set. With the ability to customise SF/TF's to a point, and the mission architect coming out, it might even be possible to recycle existing code to do this.

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Supported this when it's been raised on the suggestions board. Keep the 5 difficulties that exist now (nice and easy for beginners to grasp) and add a highly customisable difficulty setting.

And 'so what?' if it makes it easier for farmers (as that's a common objection). Farmers will always find a way to farm - and if that's what they want to do and it doesn't directly affect anyone else then why the heck should they be used as an excuse to not improve the game for many others?

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Supported this when it's been raised on the suggestions board. Keep the 5 difficulties that exist now (nice and easy for beginners to grasp) and add a highly customisable difficulty setting.

And 'so what?' if it makes it easier for farmers (as that's a common objection). Farmers will always find a way to farm - and if that's what they want to do and it doesn't directly affect anyone else then why the heck should they be used as an excuse to not improve the game for many others?

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Whoops. I wasn't aware this was a common suggestion. I'd support doing the way you describe :O)

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Supported this when it's been raised on the suggestions board. Keep the 5 difficulties that exist now (nice and easy for beginners to grasp) and add a highly customisable difficulty setting.

And 'so what?' if it makes it easier for farmers (as that's a common objection). Farmers will always find a way to farm - and if that's what they want to do and it doesn't directly affect anyone else then why the heck should they be used as an excuse to not improve the game for many others?

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Whoops. I wasn't aware this was a common suggestion. I'd support doing the way you describe :O)

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JD has a memory like a book, god knows how he does it

Don't worry, I don't think it's a 'common suggestion' - but it's been suggested at least 2 or 3 times in the past nearly 3 years.

And it sometimes sneaks in when someone is asking for a nerf (as it did here) or complaining that the game's too easy - so it may not appear in it's own well-titled thread!

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JD has a memory like a book, god knows how he does it

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Aye - Janet and John.

See Spot.
Run, Spot.
See Spot Run.

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JD has a memory like a book, god knows how he does it

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See Spot.
Run, Spot.
See Spot Run.

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And that is the limit of his reading comprehension... everything longer requires the "Text to speech" module in opera to be activated... (just kidding)

Although I don't know whether the game was more difficult two years ago(when I started) then it is now I think nerfing powersets to make things more challenging is not the right thing to do.

While failing a mission only happens to me with timed missions most of the time(or stupid AI of the one you need to protect) for myself dying in game is failure. Whether I get debt or not. Meanwhile I realise that this is not the case for many.

And while I agree that AV's and GM's should not be soloable I hate the idea of nerfing powers so that no one can solo anymore. Because while this is an MMO sometimes I prefer playing on my own, especially when trying to follow a story. (especially because my chance of dying is much bigger in a team)

I think Carnifax had the right idea, make a more challenging difficulty.