In praise of Nerfs!

Moghedien_EU · 01-30-2009 01:29 PM

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Good to know that you cant post your opinions on certain things without ppl making fun of you or attacking you :-)

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Part of the problem is that you have often been stating things as facts - not as opinions. And the facts have been false, and when challenged on their veracity you've evaded/diverted attention rather than either provide authentication or concede that you were wrong.

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Have fun, till the next one posts an opinion which isnt yours, then you can start all over again :-)

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Anyone merely naysaying just because the opinion isn't their own isn't being a constructive poster.

Anyone stating rubbish as fact and getting upset/evasive when called on that isn't either.

I'm sure that most people will happily attack false info posted here. And obviously the people who do attack false info didn't believe that info themselves, as they knew it to be false. The people attacking your opinion are doing so not so much because it's your opinion as that it's wrong.

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Good to know that you cant post your opinions on certain things without ppl making fun of you or attacking you :-)

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Part of the problem is that you have often been stating things as facts - not as opinions. And the facts have been false, and when challenged on their veracity you've evaded/diverted attention rather than either provide authentication or concede that you were wrong.

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Have fun, till the next one posts an opinion which isnt yours, then you can start all over again :-)

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Anyone merely naysaying just because the opinion isn't their own isn't being a constructive poster.

Anyone stating rubbish as fact and getting upset/evasive when called on that isn't either.

I'm sure that most people will happily attack false info posted here. And obviously the people who do attack false info didn't believe that info themselves, as they knew it to be false. The people attacking your opinion are doing so not so much because it's your opinion as that it's wrong.

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An opinion can never be wrong.....
It might be unpopular and not shared but it cant be wrong.

I was wrong bout some things i claimed as facts i admit that.
But there were several things i said, ppl said i was wrong just because i cant prove it, but they cant prove their side either, so who can say whos wrong or right ?
You cant say someone wrong cause he cant prove his views when you cant prove yours either... at least thats how i see it....

Its like someone saying he thinks there are aliens, and everyone says hes nuts and he needs to prove it first, while they cant prove there arent aliens either.

Or in school when you had to interpret a poem or a book of an ancient author, and the teacher says your wrong, how does he know ? Did he speak to the author-- most likely not.

Not all my statements are proven false.
In your opinion they are all false while you cant prove why they are false either-
And not everyone disagrees with everything i said.

Well anyway lets see what I14 brings and if the devs dare to change something you think is proven wrong,you might argue with them.

Btw Knight_Errant some of your statements are ver strange too...

Like sets didnt improve chars performance at all. i doubt your opinion on that is shared by many, even on this thread.

DSorrow · 01-30-2009 01:30 PM

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Concede gracefully?

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Nope, he cant do that, he was told by his acquintances that he's right.

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

Knight_Errant · 01-30-2009 01:36 PM

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Concede gracefully?

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Nope, he cant do that, he was told by his acquintances that he's right.

[/ QUOTE ]Lol!
The lesson? Beware the voices, they can lead you to ruin.

TheMESS · 01-30-2009 01:37 PM

Basically your thread and those you post in could have gone in completely the different direction if you had approached it as a discussion say something like.

Hey guys i see a lot of SS/WP brutes when I'm on villains why do you think that is?

or

SS seems over powered to me i think they should take a look at it especially rage it seems broken that you can multi stack it

or

I think willpower is over powered it doesn't seem to have anuff of a hole in it to make up for all its advantages.

DSorrow · 01-30-2009 01:40 PM

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An opinion can never be wrong.....
It might be unpopular and not shared but it cant be wrong.

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True. But an opinion isn't necessarily a fact. Which is why you shouldn't distribute your opinion as a fact.

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Its like someone saying he thinks there are aliens, and everyone says hes nuts and he needs to prove it first, while they cant prove there arent aliens either.

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But the thing is, the way you put your message across it came "there are aliens, I know people who also know there are aliens and I had proofs of alien existence but they were destroyed" instead "I think there are aliens".

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Or in school when you had to interpret a poem or a book of an ancient author, and the teacher says your wrong, how does he know ?

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From my *very* recent (in fact, only a couple of days) that isn't how it works. Least in Finland. Teachers dont tell you there's only 1 way to interpret a poem.

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

Shadowe · 01-30-2009 01:47 PM

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From my *very* recent (in fact, only a couple of days) that isn't how it works. Least in Finland. Teachers dont tell you there's only 1 way to interpret a poem.

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I am aware of something quite amusing on this point, actually - my apologies in advance for the minor derail.

My mother-in-law is an English teacher at a school in the North of England, but she also loves going to the Hay Festival every year.

A few years ago, she was sitting in the audience listening to someone giving an analysis of some obscure piece of poetry.

Chap sitting next to her listens to what the speaker is saying, and mutters something along the lines of "I never thought of it like that. Certainly not what was meant by it in the first place."

How did he know?

He was the poet.

The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.

; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise

; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*

Mr_Marvellous · 01-30-2009 01:54 PM

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Its like someone saying he thinks there are aliens, and everyone says hes nuts and he needs to prove it first, while they cant prove there arent aliens either..

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Because you can't disprove a negative!

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Not all my statements are proven false.

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After what has been a rather tawdry thread, battling through one change of direction after another, I have no idea what statements of yours were not proven false and there seams to be no easy way to check.

Would you like to back that statement up with a list of your points that were not proven false?

Knight_Errant · 01-30-2009 02:03 PM

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An opinion can never be wrong.....
It might be unpopular and not shared but it cant be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]Actually, yes it can. It can be factually wrong or morally wrong (subject to the applied moral code of the time).

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I was wrong bout some things i claimed as facts i admit that.

[/ QUOTE ] Only some?

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But there were several things i said, ppl said i was wrong just because i cant prove it, but they cant prove their side either, so who can say whos wrong or right ?
You cant say someone wrong cause he cant prove his views when you cant prove yours either... at least thats how i see it....

[/ QUOTE ] No, we knew you were wrong and challenged you to prove otherwise. You not only failed to meet that challenge, you actively evaded it.

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Its like someone saying he thinks there are aliens, and everyone says hes nuts and he needs to prove it first, while they cant prove there arent aliens either.

[/ QUOTE ] A very poor example to back up your attempted defence. That's something unprovable unlike the developement progress of this game, which is on record and within living memory.

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Or in school when you had to interpret a poem or a book of an ancient author, and the teacher says your wrong, how does he know ? Did he speak to the author-- most likely not.

[/ QUOTE ] Another poor example. Interpretation of literature is subject to experience and previous interpretation. If the student cannot back up his conclusions with a good, solid argument for his conclusions then of course he/she will be seen as wrong (and brobably foolish).

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Not all my statements are proven false.
In your opinion they are all false while you cant prove why they are false either-

[/ QUOTE ]However if you state that something is "just so" then you must expect to be challenged to back it up with something to confirm it. You failed to do so. Simply saying, "I can't prove it but it really is 'just so'", doesn't carry any weight. Especially when it is the cornerstone of your argument.

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And not everyone disagrees with everything i said.

[/ QUOTE ] And yet I have not seen a "you're right" post in... how many pages of thread??? Maybe not everyone disagrees with you, one or two people may fully support you, however that does not make you right. It makes you a minority.

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Well anyway lets see what I14 brings and if the devs dare to change something you think is proven wrong,you might argue with them.

[/ QUOTE ]Eh? That doesn't make sense.

Moghedien_EU · 01-30-2009 02:05 PM

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Its like someone saying he thinks there are aliens, and everyone says hes nuts and he needs to prove it first, while they cant prove there arent aliens either..

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Because you can't disprove a negative!

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Not all my statements are proven false.

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After what has been a rather tawdry thread, battling through one change of direction after another, I have no idea what statements of yours were not proven false and there seams to be no easy way to check.

Would you like to back that statement up with a list of your points that were not proven false?

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Sets did improve character performance.
Certain sets perform much better than others
Certain combos perform better than others.
Several games are harder to play than CoX.
Several ppl logged in more than 1 account on dxp weekend.
Several ppl find Cox too easy and want a challenge.

Cant prove those statements and opinions, but neither was anyone able to prove the opposite.
Some of my statements are only based of what i have seen and experienced ingame, with no numbers to back up....
I just wonder why so many ppl claim that i am wrong with my opinion of a certain set combo while they admit they never played it, while i did.
I was wrong on several other things i admitt, cause others were able to prove i was wrong.

Knight_Errant did you back up your statements?
You evaded the response too.

Shadowe · 01-30-2009 02:10 PM

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Because you can't disprove a negative!

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Well... you can, but the chain of logic has to be impeccable to be a valid proof.

Thus, the statement "I know that there are aliens", when no one else on the planet has observed them, can probably be logically disproved.

The proof might go something like...

First assume that aliens exist.

Aliens therefore exist in numbers ranging from 1 to infinity.

As the number of aliens - N(Aliens) - approaches infinity, the probability, P(Aliens), of aliens visiting Earth approaches unity.

The number of Aliens that are on Earth will be some factor k, which multiplied by NxP will give the number of Aliens on Earth.

If Aliens Exist on Earth, then P(Aliens) = 1.

Therefore kxNxP = kxInfinityx1.

Thus, the number of Aliens on Earth is infinite.

Observation disputes this.

QED.

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Not all my statements are proven false.

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After what has been a rather tawdry thread, battling through one change of direction after another, I have no idea what statements of yours were not proven false and there seams to be no easy way to check.

Would you like to back that statement up with a list of your points that were not proven false?

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I'd like to see that, too.

The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.

; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise

; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*

Carnifax · 01-30-2009 02:11 PM

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Its like someone saying he thinks there are aliens, and everyone says hes nuts and he needs to prove it first, while they cant prove there arent aliens either..

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Because you can't disprove a negative!

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Not all my statements are proven false.

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After what has been a rather tawdry thread, battling through one change of direction after another, I have no idea what statements of yours were not proven false and there seams to be no easy way to check.

Would you like to back that statement up with a list of your points that were not proven false?

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Sets did improve character performance.
Certain sets perform much better than others
Certain combos perform better than others.
Several games are harder to play than CoX.
Several ppl logged in more than 1 account on dxp weekend.
Several ppl find Cox too easy and want a challenge.

Cant prove those statements and opinions, but neither was anyone able to prove the opposite.
I was wrong on several other things i admitt, cause others were able to prove i was wrong.

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Yes, maybe in select situations (most combos have strenghts and weaknesses in various situations), yes (that's what synergy is), maybe but I don't see how thats relevant (most MMOs I've played are about the same but with a 1 enemy to 1 player ratio rather than our more enjoyable 3 minions to 1 player), probably but so what?, sometimes depending on which character I'm playing and with who.

However the main crux of the point is that that doesn't mean that a set that is more powerful, or just plain the 2 sets work better together, should be nerfed. Nor has the game gotten easier really since IOs were preceeded by the i5 and ED changes.

In my opinion of course.

Mr_Marvellous · 01-30-2009 02:12 PM

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Because you can't disprove a negative!

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Well... you can, but the chain of logic has to be impeccable to be a valid proof.

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That'll teach me not to put smiley faces on the end of fatuous comments.

DSorrow · 01-30-2009 02:17 PM

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Sets did improve character performance

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What does that have to do with game getting easier? No one is forcing you to use those sets. If you want to retain challenge, avoid sets.

The game cant be made harder because of sets because *gasp* some people dont use the sets. It isn't like ever since I9 everyone had fully kitted out characters.

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Certain sets perform much better than others

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Certain sets perform much better than others in certain sections of the game. I cant, off the top of my head, think of a set which is better in all areas of the game than another set designed for the same purpose (e.g, damage, debuff, etc.)

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Certain combos perform better than others

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In certain areas and in the hands of certain players, dont want to repeat myself.

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Several games are harder to play than CoX

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What does that have to do with CoX getting easier (in your opinion)?

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Several ppl logged in more than 1 account on dxp weekend

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I bet they never do it outside DXP.

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Several ppl find Cox too easy and want a challenge

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For a start, you could roll an infamous combo of powersets or create a second build for an alt of yours without IOs!

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

Shadowe · 01-30-2009 02:20 PM

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Several ppl logged in more than 1 account on dxp weekend

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I bet they never do it outside DXP.

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I have been known to dual-box my two accounts when RPing. I do it about once every three months, because of the strain it puts on me to fully RP two characters simultaneously.

I did not dual-box over DXP.

The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.

; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise

; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*

TheMESS · 01-30-2009 02:22 PM

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Its like someone saying he thinks there are aliens, and everyone says hes nuts and he needs to prove it first, while they cant prove there arent aliens either..

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Because you can't disprove a negative!

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Not all my statements are proven false.

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After what has been a rather tawdry thread, battling through one change of direction after another, I have no idea what statements of yours were not proven false and there seams to be no easy way to check.

Would you like to back that statement up with a list of your points that were not proven false?

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Sets did improve character performance.

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Very true but in that was not your full argument had it been you would have been correct i don't think any one would argue that sets had improved characters

what you failed to take into account time and time again was that sets had only rebalanced the global nerf of ED over all characters were not much better than they had been
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Certain sets perform much better than others

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a assume you mean power sets and of course they do all power sets are not created equals the bubblier cant heal there team mates power sets are not meant to be equal in all that they do in certain areas they will perform better than other sets while under perform in other areas its all about give and take.
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Certain combos perform better than others.

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again yes some things just work well together just as some things work badly together if everything worked the same what would be the point of having variations.
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Several games are harder to play than CoX.

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well yes several are also easier. the degree of difficulty a game has is dependant very much on the user and there mind set and so exactly which games are easier / harder will more than likely differ from player to player
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Several ppl logged in more than 1 account on dxp weekend.

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yes I'm sure they did but nothing like the majority duel boxers are very likely a very small minority of players as it takes a greater lvl of skill and expense to duel box properly and only by doing it properly are you going to see a good increase in your rewards
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Several ppl find Cox too easy and want a challenge.

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yes I'm sure they do but there's probably people who still find it difficult in fact i believe there's a post still up about some one (think its techbot) having problems with a AV so there's still challenges out there

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Cant prove those statements and opinions, but neither was anyone able to prove the opposite.
I was wrong on several other things i admitt, cause others were able to prove i was wrong.

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that was your entire problem you posted them initially as fact had you posted them as opinions you would have raised fewer hackles

Moghedien_EU · 01-30-2009 02:25 PM

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Because you can't disprove a negative!

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Well... you can, but the chain of logic has to be impeccable to be a valid proof.

Thus, the statement "I know that there are aliens", when no one else on the planet has observed them, can probably be logically disproved.

The proof might go something like...

First assume that aliens exist.

Aliens therefore exist in numbers ranging from 1 to infinity.

As the number of aliens - N(Aliens) - approaches infinity, the probability, P(Aliens), of aliens visiting Earth approaches unity.

The number of Aliens that are on Earth will be some factor k, which multiplied by NxP will give the number of Aliens on Earth.

If Aliens Exist on Earth, then P(Aliens) = 1.

Therefore kxNxP = kxInfinityx1.

Thus, the number of Aliens on Earth is infinite.

Observation disputes this.

QED.

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Not all my statements are proven false.

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After what has been a rather tawdry thread, battling through one change of direction after another, I have no idea what statements of yours were not proven false and there seams to be no easy way to check.

Would you like to back that statement up with a list of your points that were not proven false?

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I'd like to see that, too.

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Nice try but not quite correct...
k=(N - D) x P
k(Number of Aliens on earth)=N(Number of Aliens in the universe)- D(Number of aliens not able to space travel) X P(probability they visit earth)

If you assume N isnt infinitive and P isnt 1 which is more likely, then you dont get k= infinitive.

Shadowe · 01-30-2009 02:31 PM

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Because you can't disprove a negative!

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Well... you can, but the chain of logic has to be impeccable to be a valid proof.

Thus, the statement "I know that there are aliens", when no one else on the planet has observed them, can probably be logically disproved.

The proof might go something like...

First assume that aliens exist.

Aliens therefore exist in numbers ranging from 1 to infinity.

As the number of aliens - N(Aliens) - approaches infinity, the probability, P(Aliens), of aliens visiting Earth approaches unity.

The number of Aliens that are on Earth will be some factor k, which multiplied by NxP will give the number of Aliens on Earth.

If Aliens Exist on Earth, then P(Aliens) = 1.

Therefore kxNxP = kxInfinityx1.

Thus, the number of Aliens on Earth is infinite.

Observation disputes this.

QED.

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Not all my statements are proven false.

[/ QUOTE ]

After what has been a rather tawdry thread, battling through one change of direction after another, I have no idea what statements of yours were not proven false and there seams to be no easy way to check.

Would you like to back that statement up with a list of your points that were not proven false?

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I'd like to see that, too.

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Nice try but not quite correct...
k=N x P
k(Number of Aliens on earth)=N(Number of Aliens in the universe)X P(probability they visit earth)

If you assume N isnt infinitive and P isnt 1 which is more likely, then you dont get k= infinitive.

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And you need to go back to school. N is the number of aliens in the entire universe. P is the probability of those aliens being on Earth. k is the proportion of the universal alien population that comes to Earth.

Therefore N(Aliens on Earth) = kNP

If P=1, then N=Infinity.

Further, the whole point of a proof by contradiction is to take the opposing argument as fact - we already knew that there were aliens on Earth, from the initial statements, therefore P must = 1.

The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.

; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise

; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*

Knight_Errant · 01-30-2009 02:39 PM

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Sets did improve character performance.

[/ QUOTE ]Note "set" means Power Sets" This is only your opinion. And was pointed out as such. It is not backed up by fact. I have yet to find anything that backs your arguement on this point. Neither do I believe that a character that is restricted to two sets of powers will be stronger that one that can choose any power he/she wants.

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Certain sets perform much better than others

[/ QUOTE ]Again only your opinion. Given that power sets are deliberately designed to be better at some aspects than other sets, such a claim is subjective. For example Fire Blast does better damage than Ice Blast. However Fire Blast has none of the mitigation or control abilities that Ice does. Which is better?
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Certain combos perform better than others.

[/ QUOTE ]I do not believe this was contested. Certain FOTM combos are well known to be better than others however, how to deal with them is a matter for the Devs and suggestions should go in the appropriate forum and be phrased appropriately. As opposed to "Nerf X".
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Several games are harder to play than CoX.

[/ QUOTE ]This was contested. We had a number of reputedly experienced MMO players contest this point and state their experiences with alternative MMOs that you sited in support of your argument. The evidence of those stated experiences contradicted your point 100%. That doesn't at least anecdotally proves you wrong.
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Several ppl logged in more than 1 account on dxp weekend.

[/ QUOTE ]This was not contested. However it was not the point that was argued against. You sited that the logging in on more that one account was the result of the game being too easy. This was not backed up by any evidence and is therefore no more that spurious, unfounded opinion. At best it's unfounded, at worst it's just plain wrong.
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Several ppl find Cox too easy and want a challenge.

[/ QUOTE ]Please refrain from twisting previous statement to form a defence. This was not a contested opinion, however you claimed that the game is too easy and should therefore be changed. Some suggested a new difficulty setting, others claimed they were happy with things the way they are. You then claimed that mobs had been weakened as proof that tha game was easier. That was rebuffed and proved to be hogwash.

Moghedien_EU · 01-30-2009 02:52 PM

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Because you can't disprove a negative!

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Well... you can, but the chain of logic has to be impeccable to be a valid proof.

Thus, the statement "I know that there are aliens", when no one else on the planet has observed them, can probably be logically disproved.

The proof might go something like...

First assume that aliens exist.

Aliens therefore exist in numbers ranging from 1 to infinity.

As the number of aliens - N(Aliens) - approaches infinity, the probability, P(Aliens), of aliens visiting Earth approaches unity.

The number of Aliens that are on Earth will be some factor k, which multiplied by NxP will give the number of Aliens on Earth.

If Aliens Exist on Earth, then P(Aliens) = 1.

Therefore kxNxP = kxInfinityx1.

Thus, the number of Aliens on Earth is infinite.

Observation disputes this.

QED.

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Not all my statements are proven false.

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After what has been a rather tawdry thread, battling through one change of direction after another, I have no idea what statements of yours were not proven false and there seams to be no easy way to check.

Would you like to back that statement up with a list of your points that were not proven false?

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I'd like to see that, too.

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Nice try but not quite correct...
k=N x P
k(Number of Aliens on earth)=N(Number of Aliens in the universe)X P(probability they visit earth)

If you assume N isnt infinitive and P isnt 1 which is more likely, then you dont get k= infinitive.

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And you need to go back to school. N is the number of aliens in the entire universe. P is the probability of those aliens being on Earth. k is the proportion of the universal alien population that comes to Earth.

Therefore N(Aliens on Earth) = kNP

If P=1, then N=Infinity.

Further, the whole point of a proof by contradiction is to take the opposing argument as fact - we already knew that there were aliens on Earth, from the initial statements, therefore P must = 1.

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You have to decide which letters represent what :-)

One time you say N= number of aliens in the universe one time you use N=Number of aliens on earth.

Z(Number of aliens on earth)= kxNxP

Since N isnt infinit, can use drake formula for that Z isnt either

----------drake formula------
Z= (S * P * E * B * I * F * L) *k* P1(probability of aliens visiting earth)

Shadowe · 01-30-2009 02:55 PM

Aha. I'm not talking to a mathematician.

That explains it.

Sorry, forum software does not support subscripting, and therefore I am unable to adequately and appropriately write N(Aliens) and N(Aliens on Earth), which any mathematician or logician would know are two different, yet related, numbers.

Further, it was meant as a joke, not a rigourous proof. You know, like I pointed out in the original post. Just to point out that it is possible to perform proof by contradiction to disprove a negative.

Why so serious?

The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.

; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise

; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*

Dr_MechanoEU · 01-30-2009 02:55 PM

Earlier MoG you mention WoW Elite mobs...

...ooh their so hard to solo...with a healing specced priest...

...As a hunter from levels 60-80 (this is going from Classic, to Burning Crusade and then Wrath of the Lich king since I've played WoW for four years now) I took out Elites designed for groups you want to know why?

Kiting, hunters and warlocks are the kings of kiting stuff that would normally kill them very quickly and over long distances (the infamous, pulling that raid boss to the capital city kite which lasted, from what I can tell judging by running speed, a good 30-40 minutes).

Infact the hunter epic quest (started with a drop in the Molten Core raid instance) was designed for hunters to take down elites all on their lonesome with only their skills to help them, no pet allowed, no group allowed, just me and big old freething demon (the demons would despawn for three hours if anyone else so much as touched them or buffed you once engaged).

Hell I had to kite something for about eight minutes non-stop up a hill, around a curve and then down the road, if it got within 30 yards of me, it killed you fairly quickly when you only have a 34 yard range...it's understandably tense. Each demon was tailored to train a hunter in the need to know skills, Kiting, Multi-trapping, jousting + dispelling Frenzy + when to wingclip get out of a mob's reach, doing DPS under constant movement (hunters a primarily a stand and deliver type DPSer).

Sure those tests were hella difficult for the average hunter (and reasonably difficult for a skilled one) but they were more an exercise in frustation because someone would come along and tag the demon while you were fighting just to spite you simply, leaving you waiting for three hours for it to respawn.

There's very few elites I couldn't take out in WoW thanks to doing that quest line, heck so far in Wrath of the Lich King I've found exactly one Elite that would need a group to bring down because she's ontop of a mountain with no room to kite her around and Misty (Gorilla) my tanking pet doesn't resist high grade spell damage well.

Feral spec Druids, Retribution specced Paladins, Mages, Shamans etc. all have ways of soloing Elite mobs, it's only if you're the wrong spec or just one of those classes that can't pull it off that has a few problems with elites.

The Dungeon bosses are WoWs answer to AV's just they tend to not be Tank and Spank fights like they are in CoX, once you've got the pattern and the timing nailed down they're just as easy.

Badge Earned: Wing Clipper

A real showstopper!

Moghedien_EU · 01-30-2009 03:02 PM

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This was contested. We had a number of reputedly experienced MMO players contest this point and state their experiences with alternative MMOs that you sited in support of your argument. The evidence of those stated experiences contradicted your point 100%. That doesn't at least anecdotally proves you wrong.

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Two or 3 ppl said that there were easier games, which i admitted, though they were harderr when i played them and they changed difficulty.
Still there are several harder games out there, which nobody denied.... prolly havent played them.
That doesnt mean all other games are easier than CoX
I dont think anyone who played WoW before the new addon, would say instances were easier than tf/sf in CoX

Of course you can kite elite mobs in WoW, but:

1: Only outdoors not in instances with roamers and no space to run and respawn

2: Without getting agro from other elites, which prolly kill you very fast then.

Elites in WoW at least were the strenghts of Avs in CoX, not all classes were able to solo them and if you got adds you die fast.

Difference is AvS tend to be solo apart from some few Tf/Sf in CoX, while in WoW you get a whole instance filled with them + an even harder Elite Raid mob which cant be soloed at all, unlike Avs in CoX.

In other threads other ppl do think that sets do play an as important role to how a character performs as skills does.

Mr_Marvellous · 01-30-2009 03:07 PM

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Two or 3 ppl said that there were easier games, which i admitted, though they were harderr when i played them and they changed difficulty.

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Hang on, one of those game was AoC. That didn't change much since launch, it certainly didn't get any easier and it wasn't particularly difficult.

Dr_MechanoEU · 01-30-2009 03:14 PM

Sure there's harder games.

They tend to be Koren based grindfests though, RO being one of them, the original Everquest being another example.

Those pesky Korens (generalisation based on all of the Koren based MMOs I've seen follows) LOVE grindfests, random luck drops, forced teaming and everyone looking alike, it's why CoH bombed like a lead ballon over there.

WoW is seeing that being like their original MMO inspiration (Everquest) just really wasn't paying off.

WAR, My Black Orc tank can take on champion mobs of the same level and slightly higher yet still walk away with a win, hell even give hero mobs a good run for their money as was my Bright Wizard through sheer killability nuking.

AoC, My Demontologist was taking out stuff he shouldn't have been because he could kite them, if worse comes to worse, the demon pet keeps pummelling them, they run back to reset at full health, the demon hits them stopping them from resetting and comes straight back to face a nicely recovered fireball blasting, frost throwing, demon petting evil person.

From what people have said SWG was easy to level but you'd be damned if you wanted to be Jedi before the NGE came along, that took some serious grinding.

EVE online is actually incrediously easy to 'level' you don't even have to play to gain skill levels but that has hit the point where new players simply can't catch up to the highly skill levelled veterans through factor of sheer time spent training skills.

You want something to be hard, rather than just a dance by numbers (WoW Raid bosses since TBC and WAR) a Tank'n'spank (City of Heroes and most pre TBC WoW Bosses) or rely on gearing then you have to go into competitive game country like RTS, FPS or fighting games, they're based purely on skill (and sometimes blind luck).

No MMO is 'hard' the same why nothing in an MMO can ever match the Doom series or Quake series on 'Nightmare!' difficulty level for hard, yes there are challenges but they're simply down to learning a pattern or just plain gear choices.

Badge Earned: Wing Clipper

A real showstopper!

Moghedien_EU · 01-30-2009 03:17 PM

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Two or 3 ppl said that there were easier games, which i admitted, though they were harderr when i played them and they changed difficulty.

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Hang on, one of those game was AoC. That didn't change much since launch, it certainly didn't get any easier and it wasn't particularly difficult.

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Elite mobs werent difficult ?
You needed a team to kill them, solo you died in seconds.
Only comparable difficulty in CoX are AvS which dont come in masses like elite mobs.
Avs in CoX can be soloed by certain classes and combos,and in teams they are rather easy, the even harder elite Bosses in AoC needed a good and skilled team to take down.