In praise of Nerfs!
By
Blind_Minotaur,
Posted on: 2009-01-27 23:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I wouldnt pick on specific categories.
But ill tell you this. Some of my alts are clearly performing better than my others, and not because of any miracle uberslotting.
In my judgement about 75% of all difference in ability is due to sets, 25% skill. The only excpetion is relative newcomers; clearly there is a learning curve, but I imagine we are talking about people once they have ascended most of the way up that.
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*Blink* Then what the heck does "it's not the player, it's the set" actually mean?
By my understanding, it means "no matter what player you put behind it, the set is just as capable", which is utter poppycock, as you have just admitted.
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It means that sets and combos have a bigger impact on a toons performance than player skill.
Do you really believe and ARor Elec/dev blaster performs as well as an Fire/MM blaster if played by a player with the same skill in both sets ?
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No they dont, but WHY DOES THAT BOTHER YOU lol...... AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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*Blink* Then what the heck does "it's not the player, it's the set" actually mean?
By my understanding, it means "no matter what player you put behind it, the set is just as capable", which is utter poppycock, as you have just admitted.
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It means that sets and combos have a bigger impact on a toons performance than player skill.
Do you really believe and ARor Elec/dev blaster performs as well as an Fire/MM blaster if played by a player with the same skill in both sets ?
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No they dont, but WHY DOES THAT BOTHER YOU lol...... AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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Doesnt bother me at all :-), just wanted to correct something that is false imo.
Imbalance bothers me. I dont think at the end of the day its good for the game, and therefore good for anyone.
Like it or leave it folks, but every single MMORPG takes the veiw that imbalance is bad, and rebalancing is necessary. I dont know why people are arguing about it tbh, the Devs arent going to change what they do; i.e. balance.
The only thing that changes is how much resources they commit to it (and commit to it they will, and wont listen to us about how much they do so), and how they do it; what proportion of buffs, or nerfs or both simultaneously (which we may have a vague hope of influencing).
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If certain sets become more popular, for whatever reason, then that variety is diminished.
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I have to pick you up on this, that is so untrue. I posted in the other thread about this and I don't want to just duplicate that but the basic premise is that people will play differing characters because they have different tastes.
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Do you really believe and ARor Elec/dev blaster performs as well as an Fire/MM blaster if played by a player with the same skill in both sets ?
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Just because they don't perform as well in a solo situation doesn't mean they can't perform as well in a teaming situation. It's all about skill and tactics.
Imbalance in mmorpgs is most obvious if the game has PvP.
Cause players will scream bloody murder if an overpowered class or combo is way outperforming all others.
Its the competition in PvP that makes you see which classes needs adjustment, cause there are simply more ppl who care.
No fun to have no chance at all in PvP.
Now in CoX PvP had never been a big issue, its major part is PvE which is nice.
Ppl dont really care about some overpowered combos or sets cause in PvE they couldnt care less, what other play.
On the other hand the devs did feel some classes and sets were way too good in PvP if they keep the power they have in PvE, while others are way to weak in PvP.
Thats why they revamped PvP to make it more balanced (agreed its not balanced yet but better than before).
In other games the powers are the same in PvE AND PvP.
Imo the devs made powers work different in PvP to close the gap between different sets performance in PvE.
That could mean the devs are aware of certain overpowered sets or combos, but as long as they adjust them for PvP, where players really care how other players chars perform, they leave them as they are in PvE where nobody bothers about the performance of other players chars.
They nerf sets by diminishing returns and buff others by adding resists or more damg to certain powers for balance.
Longer animation time is more damg in PvP, why not in PvE too ?
Spirit shark is crazy damg in PvP but lousy in PvE, why is that ?
A PvE char suffers from long animation times too.
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If certain sets become more popular, for whatever reason, then that variety is diminished.
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I have to pick you up on this, that is so untrue. I posted in the other thread about this and I don't want to just duplicate that but the basic premise is that people will play differing characters because they have different tastes.
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Do you really believe and ARor Elec/dev blaster performs as well as an Fire/MM blaster if played by a player with the same skill in both sets ?
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Just because they don't perform as well in a solo situation doesn't mean they can't perform as well in a teaming situation. It's all about skill and tactics.
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Of course people will pick what suits them and not purely by what is most powerful.
I am talking about the herd, however. I can pretty much garuntee that if Jump Kick did x10 more damage, more people would take it. I have changed diddly squat about it in any other aspects.
The same applies to sets. If Hot feet did 1/10th of its current damage, less people would choose Fire controllers.
Its just herd behaviour. I never said there werent other factors in play that werent just as, or more important.
Even scraping my example down. If Hotfeet did 1% less damage - it would have an affect. There would be less people choosing/ playing Fire controllers. They effect would almost certainly be so small it would take a huge effort, possibly sampling the entire CoX over all servers for a year (and even then with normal distrubitions it may dissapear or even reverse). But there would likely be a tiny shift away from fire controllers.
If anybody is even remotely tempted to suggest that I am calling for above changes or that resources should be put into that degree of survey, please reread this mail, calm down, and resist that temptation!
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Thirdly, im working on the proposition that the game is too easy, bordering on collapse upon itself easy.
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This is your error.
Clearly, the game is not too easy.
If you would like proof of this, I suggest you look back at last weekend, when the server population doubled while the game was even easier.
I rest my case.
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Lordy. The game wasnt easier or harder. You just doubled the rewards for victory. Easier to get to level 50, not easier to win. .
*Bangs head against wall*
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That's true only if you consider the game as starting at level 50.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
No No No!
Im considering it at any point. I am talking about the ease of getting through, or winning an ecounter/mission/SF!
I never mentioned anything at all about rewards!!!
Your "case rested" post "proved" that I was wrong by saying the servers were more full at the time of DXP! Its got absolutely nothing to do with what Im talking about and provides absolutely no proof whatsoever!!!
I was NOT talking about ease of getting rewards, I was talking about ease of "winning". Whilst easy winning leads to easy rewards, DXP is a case of just multiplying the rewards you get!!! It dosent make "winning" the encounter any easier or harder!!!
And even if it did! What on earth proof is that? Are you saying that if we doubled XP permenantly then we would get the permenant increase in numbers we did over DXP weekend??? Of course not, the Devs would have done it years ago!!! Its busy because its double XP RELATIVE to normal XP!!!
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Thirdly, im working on the proposition that the game is too easy, bordering on collapse upon itself easy.
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This is your error.
Clearly, the game is not too easy.
If you would like proof of this, I suggest you look back at last weekend, when the server population doubled while the game was even easier.
I rest my case.
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Lordy. The game wasnt easier or harder. You just doubled the rewards for victory. Easier to get to level 50, not easier to win. .
*Bangs head against wall*
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That's true only if you consider the game as starting at level 50.
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I think a good chunk of the chars on dxp weekend were 2nd or 3rd accounts of the same players.
Just for inf farm and powerlvling toons.
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I think a good chunk of the chars on dxp weekend were 2nd or 3rd accounts of the same players.
Just for inf farm and powerlvling toons.
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I think that's a made up pile of nonsense. The 'I think' game is fun isn't it.
Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.
Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."
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I think a good chunk of the chars on dxp weekend were 2nd or 3rd accounts of the same players.
Just for inf farm and powerlvling toons.
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I think that's a made up pile of nonsense. The 'I think' game is fun isn't it.
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You dont think several players have more than 1 account ?
I do know many players who logged in several accounts so i dont "think" i do know that several chars were played by the same player for inf and pl.
But i do "think" you just disagree with everything i say, just because i say it and you like it :-)
DXP weekends are also busier than normal thanks to the free reactivation time over the weekened as well, so you've got people who have left the game coming back to check it out to see what advancements and changes have been made, fiddling about with a few characters and then once the free reactivation period is over they're off again back to whatever it is they're doing.
Many players DON'T have more than one account, the only people that do are dedicated farmers and PvPers for two very different reasons, farmers so they can pad their farms and PvPers so they can PL a character they fancy trying out at high end PvP.
Many players don't read the forums, use Mids hero designer, they pick powers because they sound/look cool, less than 10% of the playerbase read the US forums, it's probably more like only 5% on the EU side of things.
Hell I've come across tanks without status protection because they considered it too much of an endurance drain, not noticing it protected them from all those nasty mez effects until it was mentioned that it did.
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Many players DON'T have more than one account, the only people that do are dedicated farmers and PvPers for two very different reasons, farmers so they can pad their farms and PvPers so they can PL a character they fancy trying out at high end PvP.
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Sory Dr - utter tosh to state that 'the only people' to have more than one account are farmers and PvPers/PLers.
I do neither yet have multiple accounts - and I recall other (non-farmers/PvPers) saying they have multiple accounts in threads gone by.
It can be seen as weakening the entire post to include a statement that is so easy to show is false.
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my toons
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Bah fair enough, I withdraw the statement, I just remembered a lot of RPers tend to have more than one account as well but come on, the people with many accounts aren't exactly in the majority as Mog is implying.
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
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But i do "think" you just disagree with everything i say, just because i say it and you like it :-)
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Thanks for underlining the assumative idiocy of your so called argument. It's good everyone has you to tell them what they're thinking.
Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.
Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."
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Bah fair enough, I withdraw the statement, I just remembered a lot of RPers tend to have more than one account as well but come on, the people with many accounts aren't exactly in the majority as Mog is implying.
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I'd imagine that to be the case - and I'd also imagine that newer players are less likely to have multiple accounts ever since buyable slots arrived just before last Easter.
I got the 3rd account for me (to enter the TF Omega challenge) about 10 days before they announced buyable slots - I'm peeved off but had already put enough work into my character for it... If they announcement had been just 2 weeks earlier then I wouldn't hav egot that last account.
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
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Thirdly, im working on the proposition that the game is too easy, bordering on collapse upon itself easy.
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This is your error.
Clearly, the game is not too easy.
If you would like proof of this, I suggest you look back at last weekend, when the server population doubled while the game was even easier.
I rest my case.
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Lordy. The game wasnt easier or harder. You just doubled the rewards for victory. Easier to get to level 50, not easier to win. .
*Bangs head against wall*
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That's true only if you consider the game as starting at level 50.
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I think a good chunk of the chars on dxp weekend were 2nd or 3rd accounts of the same players.
Just for inf farm and powerlvling toons.
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Just for the record 'I think' you're wrong.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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I never mentioned anything at all about rewards!!!
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As you wish. The fact that a lot of accounts are active over a DXP weekend suggests that many (if not most) people do consider the rewards as part of the ease, and like it easier.
Frankly, there are plenty of ways to make the game harder without the developers doing anything. The game may be easy for you, but it isn't for everyone, and it isn't easy in comparison to other popular MMOs.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Just for the record 'I think' you're wrong.
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Its not only me who knos players with several accounts and double or even trippel accounts Do make an impact on server population if the population is pretty low in a game, imo.
Name some mmorpgs that are easier than CoX ?
CoX is one of the easiest games to lvl, solo AND teamed and has the easiests endgame content i ever seen (apart from Hami raids)
SWG, Anarchy online, WoW, Warhammer online, Age of Conan, Chronicles of Spellborn, Everquest2, Vanguard, Final Fantasy,...
just to name a few i have played are much harder than CoX, to the point you cant do anything without teams in the high lvls.
Compare the TF/SF to the instances and dungeons in those games or the elite mobs... CoX doesnt even come close to the difficulty of those games.
You must not have played many mmorpgs and done the endgame content or team only content, cause then you wouldnt have made such a false statement.
Actually with Wrath of the Lich King WoW has shortened it's dungeon instance runs to a reasonable time length of 30 minutes to 1 hour, name me a task force that I can complete in that time besides the notorious quick ones.
World of warcraft actually has gotten easier, the Instance bosses aren't very difficult anymore, heck even semi-casual raiders completed all the raid content within a month of the expansion pack being released,
WoW is actually following CoX example by making things to appeal for the casual market and instead tending to ignore the hardcore raiders (who account for very little of the games massive population).
The casual market is the big market, yes give the hardcore something to strive for but if players are getting bored/sick of having to do X amount of grinding even at level cap just to get into a 10 man raid then you've lost them.
A lot more MMORPGs are focusing on becoming like City of Heroes in their casual friendly attitudes.
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A real showstopper!
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SWG,
just to name a few i have played are much harder than CoX, to the point you cant do anything without teams in the high lvls.
Compare the TF/SF to the instances and dungeons in those games or the elite mobs... CoX doesnt even come close to the difficulty of those games.
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A tad bit false. A game where you can hit max level in 5-7 days is not hard.
Nor is it very challenging since you earn a couple of millions at level 30 by just doing the main story quest.
And most content in that game is easily soloable. (the only teams in that game is in the bars... and those teams are for changing makeup).
Cant even recall being in teams the last time I was there. Did everything solo. And that included a "end game" dungeon. (I wasn't even the strongest class then either)
End comment... SWG is much much easier than CoX ever has/will/been/is.
I don't know if any MMO's are hard, to be honest. They all follow the same kill-everything-that-moves formula and things are either killable with your class/build or they're not. If they're not, you can get another few levels or bring a team and then they're not so much. Raids are a bit different, but they're just a matter of trial-and-error and then a bit of organisation and patience.
Really, if you think about it, MMOs are basically Top Trumps with a fancy interface. You compare your numbers with the enemy's numbers and whoever has the best ones wins. Like Top Trumps, the trick is to pick the best numbers on your card to compare with your enemy's card.
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SWG, Anarchy online, WoW, Warhammer online, Age of Conan, Chronicles of Spellborn, Everquest2, Vanguard, Final Fantasy,...
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They lack spandex.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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*Blink* Then what the heck does "it's not the player, it's the set" actually mean?
By my understanding, it means "no matter what player you put behind it, the set is just as capable", which is utter poppycock, as you have just admitted.
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It means that sets and combos have a bigger impact on a toons performance than player skill.
Do you really believe and ARor Elec/dev blaster performs as well as an Fire/MM blaster if played by a player with the same skill in both sets ?