In praise of Nerfs!
By
Blind_Minotaur,
Posted on: 2009-01-27 23:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
i didnt say the majority of the players were multiple accounts. I said a good chunk of them.
Its been a while ince i played WoW and SWG so i dont know if the got easier but they were much harder than CoX when i played them.
But even if those follow the CoX easy mode now, i wouldnt go so far to say CoX is harder than the majority of the games.
In Everquest2 it was alomost not possible to play solo at high lvls.
Vanguard is almost dead but it was hard as hell to solo there.
Age of Conan, Warhammer online and Anarchy online are definately much harder than CoX.
I think one thing that makes CoX so easy is the fact, that the outdoor mobs are no threat.
In the other games you often have problems to get to a mission alieve cause the mobs can kill you.
Once you hit 50 in CoX the outdoor mobs are often way below your lvl and no threat at all, at least in GV.
You can lvl a char from 1-50 in one week in CoX too , if you grind and farm, like in most other games.
The mission nature of CoX just makes it easier to farm and grind than the outdoor grinds of other games, where you have to wait for respawns, search for mobs and if your unlucky get killed by patrols or suddenly respawning mobs.
Most of the time i just miss the challenge in CoX, mobs that are very hard to defeat, missions that are almost impossible to do, to figure out how to do something.
I remember when i played CoH on the US server when Hami was introduced.
Max team size was smaller and we were the first on our server to kill Hami as a team.
We died like 30 times each but it prolly was the most fun i had in CoX.
Maybe the Mission Architect with creative and hard mission will bring the feeling back for me and some of the players who miss a challenge as a team.
In most missions the mobs are standing at one spot waiting to get killed, i want mobs that move around, so you cant say wether there is a big spawn comming around the corner while you fight one group.
Mobs that run off to get reinforcments etc.
Buildings that explode if you cant find the bomb in time...
Sure you can gimp your char in order to have a challenge but i want a team challenge.
And since most players wont gimp a char for a challenge the others in the team will be normal chars and you will just be a player which isnt contributing to the team....
Well have just started solo/duoing through EQ2 so will let you know how it goes.
WoW is ludicrously easy but at the same time requires stupid levels of patience. Maybe CoH is just better for people with no attention span (like me)
I also saw no difficulty in AoC but then I got bored before level 30.
LotR was easier than CoH, especially with certain classes (ATs)
DDO was the least "walk through in solo" MMO I've tried and the only one that required though when teaming.
Warhammer sure as hell wasn't difficult in teams as while things were balanced for PvP most things could walk PvE. Everything I tried in Warhammer could solo well, a bit like City Of Villains really
I think more solo farming happens in CoH/V than in other games cause of the nature of rewards. You get much more drops over time soloing in CoH/V. In other games you need a group to get the worthwhile drops
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
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Well have just started solo/duoing through EQ2 so will let you know how it goes.
WoW is ludicrously easy but at the same time requires stupid levels of patience. Maybe CoH is just better for people with no attention span (like me)
I also saw no difficulty in AoC but then I got bored before level 30.
LotR was easier than CoH, especially with certain classes (ATs)
DDO was the least "walk through in solo" MMO I've tried and the only one that required though when teaming.
Warhammer sure as hell wasn't difficult in teams as while things were balanced for PvP most things could walk PvE. Everything I tried in Warhammer could solo well, a bit like City Of Villains really
I think more solo farming happens in CoH/V than in other games cause of the nature of rewards. You get much more drops over time soloing in CoH/V. In other games you need a group to get the worthwhile drops
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I found Warhammer harder, like AoC and most other games with mostly outdoor grinds and missions.
MOVING mobs.
A thing Cox totally lacks.
In the other games you can solo ok , but once you agro some romaers which is very easy you die in seconds.
Theres much more tactic involved... can i pull that mobs without agroing the others ? Can i kill those mobs before respawn behind me gets me ?
There is no kill the mob, take a break, make a tea, watch some tv and continue killing like in CoX.
If you need to go afk you have to find a save place or you die.
The occasional patrols in very few missions are no threat when 1 char can kill them in 20 secs.
Oh right, well I find kiting mobs easy, but then CoH in the early days had real hazzard zones and you used to have to do that then (bring back the crash site I say, stupid war zone)
AI isn't that bright and once you know agro ranges its no rocket science. Its not really tactics its just memory
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
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Sure you can gimp your char in order to have a challenge but i want a team challenge.
And since most players wont gimp a char for a challenge the others in the team will be normal chars and you will just be a player which isnt contributing to the team....
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Ok I suppose you got friends in this game. Make a pact with them, make a SG for example. With the sole purpose of making gimped characters and teaming with them. Then if you and your mates wants to get challenged you take out the "loser" squad and fight crime.
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Many players DON'T have more than one account, the only people that do are dedicated farmers and PvPers for two very different reasons, farmers so they can pad their farms and PvPers so they can PL a character they fancy trying out at high end PvP.
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I have two accounts, but with a good reason. My brother also plays CoX, and we started sharing the same (single) account. When I got another account, that ended up becoming shared as well. It can be a bit of a fight to decide who gets to play as their current (or favourite) character, but it's worked fairly well.
So no, not all of us are hardcore farmers or PvP'ers.
Characters:
The Heroic Mary Grace (50)
The Mystical Thunderspark (50)
The Candy-loving Little Jenny (50)
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But even if those follow the CoX easy mode now, i wouldnt go so far to say CoX is harder than the majority of the games.
In Everquest2 it was alomost not possible to play solo at high lvls.
Vanguard is almost dead but it was hard as hell to solo there.
Age of Conan, Warhammer online and Anarchy online are definately much harder than CoX.
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COX isn't harder than most of the games out there, I'll grant you that. That doesn't make it easier though.
I played AoC, Warhammer and AO and as you progress in skill, in all of those games, they become easier. Just like COX does. In fact there are areas and situations that are easier in the aforementioned games than they are in COX.
LoTRO is another example. Some bits are stupidly easy and there is nothing in there that can't be accomplished easily until you get on to some of the much higher quests.
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Once you hit 50 in CoX the outdoor mobs are often way below your lvl and no threat at all, at least in GV.
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That's because there is no real end game content in COX. There is no 'once you hit 50' to need to hit 50 for. This game is all about the journey.
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You can lvl a char from 1-50 in one week in CoX too , if you grind and farm, like in most other games.
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So, what you're saying here is that COX is no different from 'most other games'? I can't see what your argument is.
Also, I've no idea if you can get a character from 1-50 in a week but that is not the way the game is supposed to be played. Yes, of course some will but conversely many won't and those are the players who are likely to stick around the longest.
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I found Warhammer harder, like AoC and most other games with mostly outdoor grinds and missions.
[/ QUOTE ]AoC is easy. Eight characters from eight different classes ranging from level sixtysomething to eighty and I am wading through mobs with every single one. The main difference is that there are whole areas filled with epic mobs that are not challenging but outright impossible to solo unless you are many levels above them.
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MOVING mobs.
A thing Cox totally lacks.
[/ QUOTE ]Not true. Ambushs, walkers and giant monster spawns like Scrapyards super mob prove you wrong.
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In the other games you can solo ok , but once you agro some romaers which is very easy you die in seconds.
Theres much more tactic involved... can i pull that mobs without agroing the others ? Can i kill those mobs before respawn behind me gets me ?
[/ QUOTE ]In most cases the answers to both questions is yes unless you pull by blindly firing AoEs or charging into the mob or take a bio break every other spawn. Not all that challenging.
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There is no kill the mob, take a break, make a tea, watch some tv and continue killing like in CoX.
If you need to go afk you have to find a save place or you die.
[/ QUOTE ]Which is a great thing when the next safe spot is several minutes away and you have to answer the door, urgently take a leak or whatever... NOT. Unless you consider keeping your bladder in check for an indefinite amount of time a challenge this has nothing to do with challenging.[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">Antwort auf:[/color]<hr />
The occasional patrols in very few missions are no threat when 1 char can kill them in 20 secs.
[/ QUOTE ]So you want to be killed by a single patrol? You seem to be a bit masochistic... especially when I remember you saying that dying 30 times against Hamidon is what you call great fun. Hamidon is probably the most boring thing you can do in CoH, with or without the dying.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
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You can lvl a char from 1-50 in one week in CoX too , if you grind and farm, like in most other games.
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In SWG its by playing casually that it takes a week to reach max. If you grinded it would take 2-3 days. 
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Not true. Ambushs, walkers and giant monster spawns like Scrapyards super mob prove you wrong.
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How often do you get ambushes ? Even if there are some rare ambushes, they are predictable and can avoid them most times.
How mayn walking mobs are there ? 1 in 100 and when there is one it moves around in a fixed area of some meters.
Scrapyard is ONE mob in a whole game, a mob you can avoid even if you play half sleeping.
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So you want to be killed by a single patrol? You seem to be a bit masochistic... especially when I remember you saying that dying 30 times against Hamidon is what you call great fun. Hamidon is probably the most boring thing you can do in CoH, with or without the dying.
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I mean if a SOLO player can killa patrol spawned for 8 players.
I said Hami was fun when he was introduced. It was in the days max lvl was 40, team size was 6, no ED no sets etc.
In those days you HAD to kill him with ONE team.
You had to use tactics and it took skill to do it, hell ppl even had to use their brains for once.
Same was true for sewer trial.
These days its all about:
Run in, aoe aoe, maybe an aoe hold,aoe,aoe dead mobs....
Whats so bad about Elite mobs in WoW or elite mobs in AoC ?
There arent supposed to be soloed so players CANT.
What would be so bad about mission with all elite-mobs in cox ?
That would mean ppl for once HAVE to team to do something.
There would be a challenge again.
In CoX it doesnt really matter in a missiojn if 5 ppl in a team of 8 are doorsitting while the other 3 do the mission.
All elite mobs would change that.
Maybe the missions architect allows that, so players who prefer easy mode can continue with normal mission and the ones looking for a challenge can do the elite missions.
Yes we have SF/TF where you need a team, but thats just because you cant START them without a team, not because you cant DO it solo or duo. AT least most can be done olo or duo with the right chars.
As i said earlier i was talking about SWG when i played it which was before they destroyed it, the days when there were 3 times as many professions and there wasnt a bot programm for everything.
No way you could reach max int he professions in one week even with grinding back then.
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As i sais erlier i was talking about SWG when i played it which was before they destroyed it, the days when there were 3 times as many professions and there wasnt a bot programm for everything.
No way you could reach max int he professions in one week even with grinding back then.
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Not very relevant to compare the time before and after they destroyed it. Since what happened can't be changed(same with ED and all that) the only relevant version is the current one. And there was botprograms back then aswell. (I should know being an old entertainer and all)
I'm just saying that SWG is easier than CoX is in it's current state.
If you're so upset with CoX not being a challenge for you anymore then why are you still here whining about it. If you're not finding the 'Invincible' difficulty setting a challenge then evidently you're to l33t for us.
Moving mobs in other MMOs are just as uncommon as they are in CoX. With the exception of the odd patrol static mobs are the standard for MMOs, CoX is no exception. And frankly the idea of being ganked because I had to go answer the door is not an endearing game feature, so you can forget that 'idea'.
Oh and I'd like to see the non-twinked defender or blaster that can survive a genuine 8-man ambush on their own (although the odds of one being encountered while soloing is, well, as near to Zero as makes no difference).
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Not true. Ambushs, walkers and giant monster spawns like Scrapyards super mob prove you wrong.
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How often do you get ambushes ? Even if there are some rare ambushes, they are predictable and can avoid them most times.
How mayn walking mobs are there ? 1 in 100 and when there is one it moves around in a fixed area of some meters.
Scrapyard is ONE mob in a whole game, a mob you can avoid even if you play half sleeping.
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There are a fair few missions which have "patrollers", ie groups wandering about. They can be very fun if they stumble across you when you're fighting another bunch. I would like to see more wandering groups in missions though, it seems more natural than enemies standing about doing nothing. Hopefully the Architect will let you define that there should be wandering groups in missions (but I doubt it somehow to be honest).
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Whats so bad about Elite mobs in WoW or elite mobs in AoC ?
There arent supposed to be soloed so players CANT.
What would be so bad about mission with all elite-mobs in cox ?
That would mean ppl for once HAVE to team to do something.
There would be a challenge again.
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I'd like to see this in the "higher difficulty" setting talked about in Mr Ms suggestion.
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In CoX it doesnt really matter in a missiojn if 5 ppl in a team of 8 are doorsitting while the other 3 do the mission.
All elite mobs would change that.
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I strongly disagree here. Sure there might be some builds & combos that can do this, but not the vast majority of teams I end up on. Maybe you are getting stronger / more FOTM team members than I am. Still, I would like to see options for making missions harder
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If you're not finding the 'Invincible' difficulty setting a challenge then evidently you're to l33t for us.
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I think many players with more than 9 months vet rewards and several 50 dont find it very challenging anymore even on highest diff setting.
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If you're not finding the 'Invincible' difficulty setting a challenge then evidently you're to l33t for us.
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I think many players with more than 9 months vet rewards and several 50 dont find it very challenging anymore even on highest diff setting.
[/ QUOTE ]That's your assumption, without any relevent or even half conceived supportive evidence. Not a fact.
I think that the sky is pink and it rains teddy bears in game, oddly enough the truth says otherwise.
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If you're not finding the 'Invincible' difficulty setting a challenge then evidently you're to l33t for us.
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I think many players with more than 9 months vet rewards and several 50 dont find it very challenging anymore even on highest diff setting.
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I did. I found it rather challenging on the verge of being a deathtrap for most of my characters.
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If you're not finding the 'Invincible' difficulty setting a challenge then evidently you're to l33t for us.
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I think many players with more than 9 months vet rewards and several 50 dont find it very challenging anymore even on highest diff setting.
[/ QUOTE ]That's your assumption, without any relevent or even half conceived supportive evidence. Not a fact.
I think that the sky is pink and it rains teddy bears in game, oddly enough the truth says otherwise.
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I am in 2 big, very active SGs and bout 80% of the ppl there are veteran players which are pretty bored cause they miss the challenge.
Maybe its just the ppl in those 2 SGs but i do believe tht at least some others feel the same way.
Since there is no way to determine how many ppl find the game a bit too easy neither for players nor the devs, i am basing my assumption on my ingame experience.
That's not a difficulty issue, that's a matter of predictability. If you've been through the 1-50 run half a dozen time and paid attention to the mobs then you'll know what they're going to do and when. That allows you to plan your course of action accordingly and the threat that those mobs would pose to a less experience player is partially negated. It's like reading the ending of a novel and it applies to all MMOs.
My thoughts on things to make the game more challenging...
- More patrols in missions.
- Mr M's "expert" difficulty modifier system.
- Variable perception on mobs. And I don't just mean cranking up the perception range for some of them. The most immersion-breaking experience I have in the game is a group of heroes bundling through a cave and attacking a spawn of, say, Council. Powers flare, bullets whine, explosions boom, energy crackles... and the second spawn, 20 yards down the tunnel, apparently don't notice any of it. This gives me a level of contempt for them that I can't adequately describe, and I think they should have enough perception to actually do something, and join in the fight. On a related note - non-aggroing snipes. I fire my snipe at one mob in a spawn, drop them, and the rest of the spawn... does nothing. They should either scatter or split up, or the Boss/Lieut should send the minions off to investigate, but there is no way that if other members of the spawn are looking at the downed one, they will do nothing.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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That's not a difficulty issue, that's a matter of predictability. If you've been through the 1-50 run half a dozen time and paid attention to the mobs then you'll know what they're going to do and when. That allows you to plan your course of action accordingly and the threat that those mobs would pose to a less experience player is partially negated. It's like reading the ending of a novel and it applies to all MMOs.
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True part of it is predictability, but not all.
There once was a time when chars didnt have sets therfore not being as powerfull.
There once was a time when mobs used to be much harder than they are now.
There was a time players actually had to PULL mobs to not get the team whiped.
Still ppl had fun, even or maybe because it was more challenging.
Mabye it the spirit of our time that games get easier and easier, cause the developers think to attract more pll that way , i dont now.
Imo the easier a game gets the faster ppl get bored of it.
Cox counters that with awesome costume designer and a very alt-friendly game design.
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That's not a difficulty issue, that's a matter of predictability. If you've been through the 1-50 run half a dozen time and paid attention to the mobs then you'll know what they're going to do and when. That allows you to plan your course of action accordingly and the threat that those mobs would pose to a less experience player is partially negated. It's like reading the ending of a novel and it applies to all MMOs.
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True part of it is predictability, but not all.
There once was a time when chars didnt have sets therfore not beeing as powerfull.
There once was a time when mobs used to be much harder than they are now.
Still ppl had fun, even or maybe because it was more challenging.
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I disagree. Going right back it was dull as ditch-water watching a Tank herd the map or a controller being able to AOE hold every single spawn, with 10 Fire Monkeys trailing behind him. Or watching Regen take on the entire spawn. The game is far more balanced than it ever was.
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I disagree. Going right back it was dull as ditch-water watching a Tank herd the map or a controller being able to AOE hold every single spawn, with 10 Fire Monkeys trailing behind him. Or watching Regen take on the entire spawn. The game is far more balanced than it ever was.
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Totally agreeing with you there...
The aoe hold and herd all mobs in map and 10 fire monkey issues are long gone now.
But what if buff the mobs to their former power while keeping the system as it i now ?
Shouldnt +2 bosses be an equal match ?
Most of time it needs elite-bosses or AVs to be a match, which is puzzling to me since they were meant to be team only content.
I've been playing for the best part of 4 years and still find certain missions a challenge both solo and as part of a team
A few examples.
the Croatoa arcs
These i still find a lot of fun to do and the Defeat all Tuatha in sewers with its roving groups of Tuanmtha can be a real challenge of a full 8 man team but at the same time.
Rikti War Zone
again i love these missions not because there anything different really than the standard missions but the later missions when you fight the vanguard can be a real pain the "Trap the Renegades" mission being one of my favorite i still remember the first time i did the mission i was convinced it was bugged with not a mob to be seen then it was Ambush, Ambush, Ambush much fun.
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I disagree. Going right back it was dull as ditch-water watching a Tank herd the map or a controller being able to AOE hold every single spawn, with 10 Fire Monkeys trailing behind him. Or watching Regen take on the entire spawn. The game is far more balanced than it ever was.
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Totally agreeing with you there...
The aoe hold and herd all mobs in map and 10 fire monkey issues are long gone now.
But what if buff the mobs to their former power while keeping the system as it i now ?
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What former power? Mobs weren't really changed at all. Hell CoT behemoths still use their i4 version of the Inv toggle.
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Its not only me who knos players with several accounts and double or even trippel accounts Do make an impact on server population if the population is pretty low in a game, imo.
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I know people with multiple accounts. They're roleplayers. They did not multibox over the weekend, and don't normally.
I disagree with your assertion that the majority of extra accounts were second or third accounts.
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Name some mmorpgs that are easier than CoX ?
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WoW. Way easier. Especially if you team the majority of the time since the missions are largely outdoor and the encounters are not scaled by number of characters on a team.
LotRO, similar issue. Lack of scaling.
Even solo, neither of those games are easier than CoH, unless you count the concept of being able to take on more things easily in CoH. That's part of the genre, however, and since spawn sizes are generally larger in CoX, it's really a moot point.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.