In praise of Nerfs!

Moghedien_EU · 01-30-2009 12:25 PM

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No he just proved that they used to be easier and were made harder in i3 and then AVs and GMs were made even harder still that bit that was rolled back was the ridiculus regen some mobs had to the point that they could not be taken down without a lot of dedicated -regen

and I'm sorry but giving a mob or anything for that matter so much regen that it cant be taken down is

a) not fun
b) a waste of time

and you've yet to tell us when this making the mobs easyer actually happened so far you have not given one example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Take a look at Sapphic_Neko`s post.
Unfortunately i cant remember everything just that they used to be harder.

AT least Sapphic_Neko shows i am not completely stupid :-)

Carnifax · 01-30-2009 12:34 PM

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No he just proved that they used to be easier and were made harder in i3 and then AVs and GMs were made even harder still that bit that was rolled back was the ridiculus regen some mobs had to the point that they could not be taken down without a lot of dedicated -regen

and I'm sorry but giving a mob or anything for that matter so much regen that it cant be taken down is

a) not fun
b) a waste of time

and you've yet to tell us when this making the mobs easyer actually happened so far you have not given one example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Take a look at Sapphic_Neko`s post.
Unfortunately i cant remember everything just that they used to be harder.

AT least Sapphic_Neko shows i am not completely stupid :-)

[/ QUOTE ]
There's nothing in Neko's post saying how mobs got boosted, just how the no AOE caps made it easier.

Mobs themselves got boosted since i3, especially bosses.

Some of the spawning rules got changed so you don't get +5s in missions any more but the mobs themselves didn't get any harder, that's the closest thing (I never had it happen to me in i3 mind that I can remember. Had it happen that I spawned +20s on a Villains mish before but that was a bug). A +5 Boss now is tougher than a +5 boss from then though.

GMs and AVs also got heavily boosted (and rewards nerfed) since then too.

You mightn't be stupid, but you aren't the best at reading comprehension either.

Having said all that I will admit that some aspects of the game have been made easier, namely the new Hollows. I sorta miss the old one where you had to run around masses of +7 enemy groups to get to your missions.

Knight_Errant · 01-30-2009 12:37 PM

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Some ppl said that there are several much harder games out there.
And maybe most ppl didnt play many other games to compare ?

[/ QUOTE ]More wild unfounded speculation while ignoring the evidence at hand? How obtuse can you get?

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Aehm you do think before posting do you ?
Since you did just prove by yourself that the mobs used to be much harder, so i wonder how you come up to the conclusion that my statement they were harder was wrong ???
I said there were times mobs were harder than now and that is true.

[/ QUOTE ]*cough* Wrong again (at least you're consistent ). I've just proved that you didn't read my post and that you don't think before posting.

My post shows that there was a total buff to Bosses and AVs in i3 they were not nerfed to a state weaker than they were before i3. They finished up stronger.

Of course AVs and GMs were buffed again later on to make them a bit tougher too. That was back in i7, again they over did it on the regen and had to tweak it back down to a reasonable level.
So you're still wrong. Mobs haven't gotten weaker, if fact where changes have been made they've gotten stronger.

Also Neko's post isn't telling the whole story. Lts and Bosses are still more accurate than minions. Unless the Surveillance power on my Blaster is lying every time I scan an LT or Boss.

Moghedien_EU · 01-30-2009 12:44 PM

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No he just proved that they used to be easier and were made harder in i3 and then AVs and GMs were made even harder still that bit that was rolled back was the ridiculus regen some mobs had to the point that they could not be taken down without a lot of dedicated -regen

and I'm sorry but giving a mob or anything for that matter so much regen that it cant be taken down is

a) not fun
b) a waste of time

and you've yet to tell us when this making the mobs easyer actually happened so far you have not given one example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Take a look at Sapphic_Neko`s post.
Unfortunately i cant remember everything just that they used to be harder.

AT least Sapphic_Neko shows i am not completely stupid :-)

[/ QUOTE ]
There's nothing in Neko's post saying how mobs got boosted, just how the no AOE caps made it easier.

Mobs themselves got boosted since i3, especially bosses.

Some of the spawning rules got changed so you don't get +5s in missions any more but the mobs themselves didn't get any harder, that's the closest thing (I never had it happen to me in i3 mind that I can remember. Had it happen that I spawned +20s on a Villains mish before but that was a bug). A +5 Boss now is tougher than a +5 boss from then though.

GMs and AVs also got heavily boosted (and rewards nerfed) since then too.

You mightn't be stupid, but you aren't the best at reading comprehension either.

Having said all that I will admit that some aspects of the game have been made easier, namely the new Hollows. I sorta miss the old one where you had to run around masses of +7 enemy groups to get to your missions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Acc got nerfed for bosses and ltn, they used to have higher acc.

Londoner · 01-30-2009 12:47 PM

Lets convert this to a farming thread, give it a jump start now its gone a bit stale

Carnifax · 01-30-2009 12:48 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
No he just proved that they used to be easier and were made harder in i3 and then AVs and GMs were made even harder still that bit that was rolled back was the ridiculus regen some mobs had to the point that they could not be taken down without a lot of dedicated -regen

and I'm sorry but giving a mob or anything for that matter so much regen that it cant be taken down is

a) not fun
b) a waste of time

and you've yet to tell us when this making the mobs easyer actually happened so far you have not given one example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Take a look at Sapphic_Neko`s post.
Unfortunately i cant remember everything just that they used to be harder.

AT least Sapphic_Neko shows i am not completely stupid :-)

[/ QUOTE ]
There's nothing in Neko's post saying how mobs got boosted, just how the no AOE caps made it easier.

Mobs themselves got boosted since i3, especially bosses.

Some of the spawning rules got changed so you don't get +5s in missions any more but the mobs themselves didn't get any harder, that's the closest thing (I never had it happen to me in i3 mind that I can remember. Had it happen that I spawned +20s on a Villains mish before but that was a bug). A +5 Boss now is tougher than a +5 boss from then though.

GMs and AVs also got heavily boosted (and rewards nerfed) since then too.

You mightn't be stupid, but you aren't the best at reading comprehension either.

Having said all that I will admit that some aspects of the game have been made easier, namely the new Hollows. I sorta miss the old one where you had to run around masses of +7 enemy groups to get to your missions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Acc got nerfed for bosses and ltn, they used to have higher acc.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way Acc & Defense worked in i7 was rejigged so Defense based toons scaled better against higher level mobs. This was because SR and Ice tanks were lagging behind defense based ones.

Didn't make a difference if you didn't have any defense though, so it was a buff for Defense based toons who needed it, not an across the board nerf to mobs.

That's the change I remember anyway.

Shadowe · 01-30-2009 12:51 PM

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Acc got nerfed for bosses and ltn, they used to have higher acc.

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Oh. Right. So, they used to have greater than 50% base accuracy. Which makes them less powerful now, because...

Regen buffs
Resist buffs
Defense buffs

Mean absolutely nothing to their overall power.

The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.

; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise

; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*

DSorrow · 01-30-2009 12:51 PM

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I've been largely staying out of this thread (and its "Nerf SS/WP!" twin) because trying to pin down Moghedien on an argument is like trying to nail jelly to the wall.

Get close to something that'd force him to concede he was wrong on some specific and he'll shoot off at a tangent, throw something else that's clearly incorrect in (or at best unprovable - e.g. SS/WP "datamining", dxp weekend dual boxing farmers, CoX is easier than other MMOs, only Ill/Rad controllers can solo GMs, mobs used to be much harder...), and off things go in the new direction.

It's impressive in a way, and very entertaining to read, but in the interests of my blood pressure I'll mostly continue to lurk.

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After having read most of both of the threads I pretty much agree with what you said Standoff. It is really entertaining watching Moghedien trying to desperately evade facts and tossing out new false assumptions to distract us.

Anyways, just something for you to think about Moghedien:
If a mob is intendendly buffed, but for some reason the buff becomes more powerful than the devs wanted and they have to take part of it off, does this make the mob easier or not?

An example, take an attribute. We call it X.

Scenario 1: X has the value 1, it is considered too low and devs want to buff it

=>Scenario 2: X is buffed by 100% => (1+1)X = 2X.
Devs realize attribute X is too powerful now.

=>Scenario 3: Devs reduce attribute X by 25% (=partially) => 2X * (1-0.25) = 1.5X.
Attribute X is now 50% more powerful than it was in scenario 1 which results in the mob being more powerful.

Hoping you understood what the above example was all about, I have a question for you: in the set of scenarios above, did the mobs end up made easier?

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

Sapphic_Neko · 01-30-2009 12:53 PM

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Acc got nerfed for bosses and ltn, they used to have higher acc.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was mostly because after ED Defense based characters got [censored] owned because they no longer could get the 75+% defense they needed to survive a boss.

Londoner · 01-30-2009 12:54 PM

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I've been largely staying out of this thread (and its "Nerf SS/WP!" twin) because trying to pin down Moghedien on an argument is like trying to nail jelly to the wall.

Get close to something that'd force him to concede he was wrong on some specific and he'll shoot off at a tangent, throw something else that's clearly incorrect in (or at best unprovable - e.g. SS/WP "datamining", dxp weekend dual boxing farmers, CoX is easier than other MMOs, only Ill/Rad controllers can solo GMs, mobs used to be much harder...), and off things go in the new direction.

It's impressive in a way, and very entertaining to read, but in the interests of my blood pressure I'll mostly continue to lurk.

[/ QUOTE ]

After having read most of both of the threads I pretty much agree with what you said Standoff. It is really entertaining watching Moghedien trying to desperately evade facts and tossing out new false assumptions to distract us.

Anyways, just something for you to think about Moghedien:
If a mob is intendendly buffed, but for some reason to buff becomes more powerful than the devs wanted and they have to take part of it off, does this make the mob easier or not?

An example, take an attribute. We call it X.

Scenario 1: X has the value 1, it is considered too low and devs want to buff it

=>Scenario 2: X is buffed by 100% => (1+1)X = 2X.
Devs realize attribute X is too powerful now.

=>Scenario 3: Devs reduce attribute X by 25% (=partially) => 2X * (1-0.25) = 1.5X.
Attribute X is now 50% more powerful than it was in scenario 1 which results in the mob being more powerful.

Hoping you understood what the above example was all about, I have a question for you: in the set of scenarios above, did the mobs end up made easier?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can he call a freind?

Knight_Errant · 01-30-2009 12:54 PM

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Acc got nerfed for bosses and ltn, they used to have higher acc.

[/ QUOTE ]Nope that was a correction to bring them into balance with the defence changes.

DSorrow · 01-30-2009 12:55 PM

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Can he call a freind?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, he's used it all.

No ask the audience, no 50:50, no call a friend.

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

Londoner · 01-30-2009 12:57 PM

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Can he call a freind?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, he's used it all.

No ask the audience, no 50:50, no call a friend.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's [censored]

Judgement_Dave · 01-30-2009 12:58 PM

Found this on the US boards that backs up the point:

this what happened in the last game i played SS/WP hackers ruined it for everyone hittin mobs and not always dyin and just anything to cheat there no extened maintenance there trying to catch the SS/WP hackers and we pay for it so unless people don't let board moderators know of troll poster's in the forum it we ruin it and there we not be a COH FORUM IT WELL BE GONE TO THE MOGHEDIENS!!!!!!!

By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)

DSorrow · 01-30-2009 12:58 PM

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Can he call a freind?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, he's used it all.

No ask the audience, no 50:50, no call a friend.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's [censored]

[/ QUOTE ]

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

Standoff · 01-30-2009 01:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Found this on the US boards that backs up the point:

this what happened in the last game i played SS/WP hackers ruined it for everyone hittin mobs and not always dyin and just anything to cheat there no extened maintenance there trying to catch the SS/WP hackers and we pay for it so unless people don't let board moderators know of troll poster's in the forum it we ruin it and there we not be a COH FORUM IT WELL BE GONE TO THE MOGHEDIENS!!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

DSorrow · 01-30-2009 01:01 PM

I find this thread is getting all the more entertaining

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

Londoner · 01-30-2009 01:03 PM

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I find this thread is getting all the more entertaining

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It needs a restart on a new tangent, im all for farming being that tangent.

DSorrow · 01-30-2009 01:06 PM

But not yet! I want to hear his response to my post first

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

Moghedien_EU · 01-30-2009 01:08 PM

Good to know that you cant post your opinions on certain things without ppl making fun of you or attacking you :-)

At least in game several ppl agree with some of my opinions.

Its always the same ppl here anyway who say all is fine nothing needs change.

Have fun, till the next one posts an opinion which isnt yours, then you can start all over again :-)

I do like criticism and i can deal with it, and i am able to admitt when i was proven wrong, what i cant deal with are meaningless irrelevant "fun posts" without any relevace to the topic of ppl only jumping the bandwagon.....

I guess thats why most players cant be bother to post on the forums if they have unpopular opinions....

Londoner · 01-30-2009 01:11 PM

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Its always the same ppl here anyway who say all is fine nothing needs change.

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I think there's loads need changing, it just seems that nerfing SS/WP aint a very popular change.

DSorrow · 01-30-2009 01:12 PM

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Good to know that you cant post your [u]opinions[u] on certain things without ppl making fun of you or attacking you

[/ QUOTE ]

You, my sir, have just pwned yourself.

What you expressed as facts in the previous pages are now opinions. Funny aint it?

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

Londoner · 01-30-2009 01:13 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
Good to know that you cant post your [u]opinions[u] on certain things without ppl making fun of you or attacking you

[/ QUOTE ]

You, my sir, have just pwned yourself.

What you expressed as facts in the previous pages are now opinions. Funny aint it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didnt notice that, but it was a fine self nerfing!

Judgement_Dave · 01-30-2009 01:18 PM

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Good to know that you cant post your opinions on certain things without ppl making fun of you or attacking you :-)

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Part of the problem is that you have often been stating things as facts - not as opinions. And the facts have been false, and when challenged on their veracity you've evaded/diverted attention rather than either provide authentication or concede that you were wrong.

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Have fun, till the next one posts an opinion which isnt yours, then you can start all over again :-)

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Anyone merely naysaying just because the opinion isn't their own isn't being a constructive poster.

Anyone stating rubbish as fact and getting upset/evasive when called on that isn't either.

I'm sure that most people will happily attack false info posted here. And obviously the people who do attack false info didn't believe that info themselves, as they knew it to be false. The people attacking your opinion are doing so not so much because it's your opinion as that it's wrong.

By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)

Knight_Errant · 01-30-2009 01:23 PM

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Good to know that you cant post your opinions on certain things without ppl making fun of you or attacking you :-)

[/ QUOTE ]These "opinions" would be the things that you have stated as facts previously? Mob nerfs, dismissal of evidence at hand etc.?

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At least in game several ppl agree with some of my opinions.

[/ QUOTE ] I contest this on the grounds of insufficient supportive evidence!

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Its always the same ppl here anyway who say all is fine nothing needs change.

Have fun, till the next one posts an opinion which isnt yours, then you can start all over again :-)

[/ QUOTE ]It would help if your "opinion" wasn't initially and then repeatedly stated as fact while being completely lacking in real evidence to back it up.
And now ofcourse, when it's clear that nobody agrees with you and all your "opinions" have been proven false (or shown to be so dubious as to be false), it's back to the old faithful of, "You're all a bunch of mean, narrow-minded trolls".
Concede gracefully?