In praise of Nerfs!

Or have powerful new enemies you'll never see solo spawn as teams get bigger!

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Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.

Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."

I think I have to disagree with the OP. Not the sentiment, I wouldn't mind seeing a new level of difficulty in the game, but I don't think that the way of doing this should be to reduce powers that have (and are constantly being) played with in order to balance them. What would happen is that the devs would essentially have to start again with there balancing tasks as opposed to tweaking here and there.

By all means, create more challenging content though!

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I never particularly like putting in too much content that soloers can't see - just because not everyone can always get a team (especially if playing in an 'unusual' timezone or working odd shifts).

TF/SF/Trials I'm happy requiring teams - as they are especialy big threats to the city/islands/world/etc requiring a team to face - and this feels to be in a long superhero tradition*.

Just adding normal mobs that you can't meet solo feels against the casual-friendliness of CoX.


* feels to me - as someone who never really read any comics other than 2000AD so isn't a full-on superhero comic nerd...

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By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)

I for one think they need to make debt a big thing again. Gone are the days when you'd break down in tears when you died and had half a bar of debt fom that one death (I certainly did anyway...).

Now, it either just gets soaked up by patrol XP or goes within 1-2 minutes, not to mentions the debt protection we get from safeguards/Xmas gifts. I liked it when teams had to plan to do things in a certain way as not to die, and therefore incurring debt. It would discourage idiots from just running in to a big mob and having a go, hoping the rest of the team is following and incourage a little more planning and wit.

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A few clarifications:

Firsly, Im not arguing against buffs. Just as you cant buff contantly (it feedbacks into ever increasing power), you cant nerf contantly (this error is actually more problematic in consequence). Im arguing for BOTH.

Secondly, I appreciate the problem of difficulty and the solution of raising it. I dont really want to get sidetracked by making this a difficulty thread (perhaps someone should start a seperate one for that)

Two things spring to mind:

Raising difficulty works in the short term, but it just delays the ineveitable as endless buff cycle will mean another difficulty raise later on. It may have virtue as a "Sticking plaster" measure of course.

Im an altaholic. Whist I frankenslot with IOs, I dont farm or uberslot my alts (maybe 1 in 5 has a purple set, normally a cheapo like sleep or confuse). OK, so Im experienced. But even so, the game cant set the difficulty high enough for SOME of my alts in SOME teams (how often is irrelevant) this is a problem. HOwever, NOTHING is to difficut for a toon on Heroic, with the exception of a few specifically built toons like empaths with one attack power (its actually doable,but dull as ditchwater).

Anyway, please not lets get sidetracked into a "Raise difficulty". Its just participating in an arms war (and will again, speed up levelling, as a side effect).

And please, Im not arguing for nerfing toons in isolation. I would like the AVERAGE power of toons to stay the same. Im arguing for NERFING in conjuction with BUFFS, As opposed to the road to hell that is endless BUFF cycle.

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There is practically nothing in the game you can fail now

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Those of us who are not gaming gods or don't have stupidly expensive builds or don't play one of the powerful combinations of power sets find it quite easy to fail at some things!

The problem with nerfs is that the way this game was designed simply doesn't lend itself to changes of individual power sets. Take the fire/kin controllers for instance, those tw together make an extremely powerful combination but if either was nerfed, it would wreck that set for other combinations.

If you find the game too easy, try it with a different AT. Don't go around assuming that just because YOU find the game easy on invincible, everybody else is in the same boat. Remember there are lots of 'casual' players, if you make the game ridiculously difficult they'll be stuffed.

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I just thought this was agood post and worthy of specific reply.

Are you implying that if set on heroic, inexperienced teams find things to hard? That has not been my impression (LRSF, STF, and possibly ITF/Sewer Trial excluded).

Also, it is perfectly doable to nerf particular combinations with minimal effect on individual sets. Fire/Kins, for instance (if one was inclined to nerf them - as per forum rules Im not asking to nerf this highly effective and powerful combination) could have hotfeet damage unbuffable, fire imps immune to recharge modification, or make containment give a +100% damage bonus (or something other than the mechanic which allows you to double the damage cap). If you were inclinded to do so, of course. I pick this extremely powerful combination purely at random.

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I agree! What we need is a PVE revamp similar to the excellent revamp PVP just got.

Then all the disgruntled PVP'ers can taunt from the sidelines with "CRY MOAR!" and "ADAPT OR DIE!" while the devs steadfastly ignore any sensible calls to hold back on ill conceived and ham fisted changes.

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Also note, I specified Nerfs as subtle effects, not ham fisted blundering changes that make things useless.

Whilst possibly amusing, things like "Lets just have brawl as a power" would not be a possible outcome.

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THIS GAME MUST NOT GET ANY EASIER.

+3 on that. I'm adding my wife and daughters vote as well. I have a feeling someone is having a logical malfunction in their reasoning.

"We don't have that many players. We do want more players. Why don't we get more players when we want them? The game must be too hard. If it was easier we would get more players! Let's make the game easier. Damn deal done."

I think it's the same kind of error-thinking that hit old Statesman when adding his visions of balance for PvP, which might not have destroyed the game but IMHO did not make it a better game.

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I for one think they need to make debt a big thing again. Gone are the days when you'd break down in tears when you died and had half a bar of debt fom that one death (I certainly did anyway...).

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Which is really funny when I get a lag spike or griefed and die without any fault of my own.

Debt is ****. Just because it doesn't stink as bad as other 'solutions' in a generic MMO framework that feels it has to heavily punish you for dying, for some confused reason that dying should be important even though the whole reason we're not playing iron man is because we dont want to die, doesn't mean it's good.

I put forward the idea that total team wipe, including solo, should result in mission failure, which no-one liked even though it makes sense that Dead = Lose. It's too harsh, obviously. Grab a decent team or some friends and you can grind through debt no problem, but holy knickers, actually failing the mission!? We can't have our heroes failing when they get torn to pieces by an enraged Warwolf, that's ludicrous, it's an actual consequence! Just give us some more debt we can grind through please.

Debt can kiss my backside, I love having no debt, I love not having to worry when I die, and I love that I can play with people willing to hit Self Destruct instead of running like hell because masochists want their computer to stab them in the leg with a spring loaded knife when their toon dies.

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Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.

Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."

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Are you implying that if set on heroic, inexperienced teams find things to hard? That has not been my impression (LRSF, STF, and possibly ITF/Sewer Trial excluded).

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Ah, we're approaching this from different angles. I tend to solo a lot so I tend to post mainly from that point of view. I find some things (not necessarily EB's) impossible. I'd be the first to agree that teams can generally steamroller their way through normal missions with hardly a pause and even most TF's are not a huge challenge.

Having said that, even in teams there are some things that are really tough to do which is the way it should be but if we make things harder for teams we're in danger of ending up with a game where soloing is completely impossible. I'm not convinced that would be a good idea.

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I would never be in favour of either:

a) A solo toon/A team being unable to find someting suitably challenging.

b) A solo toon/A team being unable to find something which is relatively straightforward (not completely risk free, but relaxed)

Unfortunately, the game, as it stands, has far more of a problem with a) than b) (Im not sure that b is a problem at all except for some defenders soloing on heroic - everyone else can always find something to do).

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NOTHING is to difficut for a toon on Heroic

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Had to pick up on this one. There may be nothing too difficult for a toon on heroic in the hands of an experienced player but people new to the game would like a fighting chance. Even getting to missions at lower levels can be a hell of a challenge, though not as bad as it used to be I admit.

It's not going to be easy for the devs to come up with a system that gives new players a chance to achieve something while still giving experienced players a challenge. They probably didn't expect people to still be playing after 4+ years!

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Thats a fair point. Which is why I am so fond of Positron, for instance, I can actually get a challneg out of it!

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[ QUOTE ]
A few clarifications:

Firsly, Im not arguing against buffs. Just as you cant buff contantly (it feedbacks into ever increasing power), you cant nerf contantly (this error is actually more problematic in consequence). Im arguing for BOTH.

Secondly, I appreciate the problem of difficulty and the solution of raising it. I dont really want to get sidetracked by making this a difficulty thread (perhaps someone should start a seperate one for that)

Two things spring to mind:

Raising difficulty works in the short term, but it just delays the ineveitable as endless buff cycle will mean another difficulty raise later on. It may have virtue as a "Sticking plaster" measure of course.

Im an altaholic. Whist I frankenslot with IOs, I dont farm or uberslot my alts (maybe 1 in 5 has a purple set, normally a cheapo like sleep or confuse). OK, so Im experienced. But even so, the game cant set the difficulty high enough for SOME of my alts in SOME teams (how often is irrelevant) this is a problem. HOwever, NOTHING is to difficut for a toon on Heroic, with the exception of a few specifically built toons like empaths with one attack power (its actually doable,but dull as ditchwater).

Anyway, please not lets get sidetracked into a "Raise difficulty". Its just participating in an arms war (and will again, speed up levelling, as a side effect).

And please, Im not arguing for nerfing toons in isolation. I would like the AVERAGE power of toons to stay the same. Im arguing for NERFING in conjuction with BUFFS, As opposed to the road to hell that is endless BUFF cycle.

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I would disagree there (about nerfs) and I don't view this as a sidetrack ... more of an alternative option, as I do agree with you that the game can be too easy.

A lot of players like characters that buff - indeed some that I know play buffers almost exclusively.

Nerf buffs and you'll wreck those players characters enjoyment of the game.

The answer to your dilemma does indeed seem to be a rep increase by 1 or 2 levels, so that instead of having +2/+3 on Invincible, mobs could be made +3/+4 or +4/+5.

Yes it will make levelling quicker but it will only be the players with experience and possibly characters that are built 'corerectly' that will be able to manage a massive mob spawn of +4/+5 with multiple Bosses/Elite Bosses and perhaps the odd AV thrown in here and there at random

Personally I would take that scenario over a buff nerf every time.

It has a lot going for it, if you think about it.

Long term experienced players will have a fresh challange for all of their characters if they want and less experienced players will strive to work at their game until they can go toe to toe with a mob spawn that would put the Fear of God into casual player teams.

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Proud member of FOXBASE ALPHA and coalition associates.

Hero 50's - 25

Villain 50's - 1

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Long term experienced players will have a fresh challange for all of their characters if they want and less experienced players will strive to work at their game until they can go toe to toe with a mob spawn that would put the Fear of God into casual player teams.

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I agree there. Since coming back I've not been on much but when leveling my current character I was in a few PUGs who just couldn't hack it. They did find the game difficult. Where as I know a few teams/players who usually rocket through those levels. That's where the balance needs to be struck.

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[ QUOTE ]
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Long term experienced players will have a fresh challange for all of their characters if they want and less experienced players will strive to work at their game until they can go toe to toe with a mob spawn that would put the Fear of God into casual player teams.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree there. Since coming back I've not been on much but when leveling my current character I was in a few PUGs who just couldn't hack it. They did find the game difficult. Where as I know a few teams/players who usually rocket through those levels. That's where the balance needs to be struck.

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That was my thinking as well Mr M.

I normally team with with my SG. We are all highly experienced with multiple 50's of almost every AT.

About the only thing that remotely slows us down is the end of STF.

A rep increase would be very welcome.

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Proud member of FOXBASE ALPHA and coalition associates.

Hero 50's - 25

Villain 50's - 1

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Long term experienced players will have a fresh challange for all of their characters if they want and less experienced players will strive to work at their game until they can go toe to toe with a mob spawn that would put the Fear of God into casual player teams.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree there. Since coming back I've not been on much but when leveling my current character I was in a few PUGs who just couldn't hack it. They did find the game difficult. Where as I know a few teams/players who usually rocket through those levels. That's where the balance needs to be struck.

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That was my thinking as well Mr M.

I normally team with with my SG. We are all highly experienced with multiple 50's of almost every AT.

About the only thing that remotely slows us down is the end of STF.

A rep increase would be very welcome.

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Knowledge is power. Having played this game for a long time like most of us have makes it LOOK easier then it is. We know how to do things and what not to do. We know which builds work and how. We know what the tactics are to defeat certain AV's. I think that changes more then any so called 'buffs' we have gotten.

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Add an extra level of difficulty, dont keep [censored] up peoples chars.

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That is the literal answer, all the fiddling with powers ends up with one thing, more imbalance and more upset players..... there needs to be pressure to increase NPC AI, to involve more dynamic effects and variables that allow different powers to offer different biases on circumstance, to increase the variety not simply of what the powers can do but how they are applied....to expand the game in a manner that players percieve as exciting positive and prgressive and not be bound by the same heavy handed knee jerk reaction to one scenario that occurs wayyyy too often.(a direct result from the lack of variety) that has consistently failed from day one.

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NOTHING is to difficut for a toon on Heroic

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Go do the Mender Lazarus TF on heroic, there's one EB (yes elite boss) that is the bane of most characters existance, Nosferatu. Why that guy isn't incharge of the Council I'll never know since he's tougher than any of the other Elite bosses/Arch-villains, I've seen him take out Vandal one on one all by his little self before about one hundred minions, lts, bosses and Maestro ganked him (was the only way they could bring him down I think)

Or the Madame of Mystery Carnie EB, yes she has that end draining power, yes you need a temp power to even remotely dent her regen.

There are some challenges out there for any toon on heroic...trust me those two Elite Bosses are just plain evil...

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Badge Earned: Wing Clipper

A real showstopper!

I've done Mender Lazarous solo on difficulties higher than heroic, with a dominator, a corruptor, and a bane spider. Nosferatu is easy enough if you pop purples and/or try to stay out of melee range.

And I've soloed Madame of Mystery on invincible.

It's all a matter of experence, knowing how to deal with them.

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I really should do something about this signature.

Not tried Nosferatu on a non-melee based toon so that's the experience I've had with him you must admit he is widely regarded as one of the tougher Elite Bosses in the game.

What this all comes to is what powersets your going up with against what bosses.

my Invuln/SS tank managed to beat Marauder as an EB on relentless without inspiration help alright it took 15 minutes (two invuln/SS tankers going at it is like repeatedly hitting each other with a spoon) and the only reason I came close to getting killed was for the fact I decided to fire off unstoppable as he did just to even out the odds when it crashed for both of us but I managed to survive through the crash (thank you Dull pain) and then beat him down.

My DM/Regen scrapper pretty much flies through anything but AVs with ease thanks to being able to stack enough Touch of Fear to reduce their tohit to the ground and actually fear through purple triangles (can also achieve this with AVs as well).

Heroic is pretty much the starting out easy period, it's meant to be the difficulty which is the easiest to solo on.

To take the doom difficulty levels and compare them to our own.

"I'm too young to die": Heroic

"Hey, Not Too Rough": Rugged

"Hurt me Plenty": Relentless

"Ultra-Violence": Unyielding

"Nightmare!": Invincible Master of the Statesman TF (since Invincible is nowhere near the challenge doom in Nightmare mode is).

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Badge Earned: Wing Clipper

A real showstopper!

I have found that for certain AT's and powersets it is a stroll in the park, compared to others. There isn't much that gives any of my high levels a pause for thought - this is what is missing.

Okay, so how about a level 40 mission to unlock a higher difficulty setting (I was going to suggest a vet reward - but this works better, I feel)

lvl 20 - cape and costume
lvl 30 aura and costume
lvl 40 ??? and costume

That is where it would fit in, the reason I placed it there, is by then you will have a fair few powers to be able to handle the setting.

This does not have to be more xp, inf and prestige bonus would be nice though. BUT coupled with it is more debt per defeat to compensate for the boost. Possibly no boost at all, just more debt.

OR, If the capes at lvl 1 is put in, then it could be placed there instead so teams would have a real challenge.

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Just like to add that the Imperious Taskforce was insanely hard when it first hit open beta, you know why?

We had no idea what was going on, I was on one of the first teams to run through the ITF once it hit open beta in the EU and there was no info on it whatsoever from any source.

Coming up against three Nictus AVs + Nictus infused Romulous was a major stumbling block until everyone figured out which Nictus AV did what and that you needed to either have enough debuffs and DPS to down Rommy through healing or just seperate him from Mr Healy the Healing Nictus. All this was on heroic.

Now people know what to do it's obviously become a lot easier but that first time, trying to figure out how what nictus was doing what and when was interesting.

The point is that info has also helped reduce the difficulty, people know to stack Clear mind on the Tanker for Ghost Widow on the STF, imagine being the first team through that and not knowing that she pulls off a Mag 100 hold or about uber-buffed Recluse, the respawning Arachnos Flier (which I wish would die and stay dead once you've killed it), everybody knows much more than they do when the content is fresh, the proliforation of information helps make the game somewhat easier as well.

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Badge Earned: Wing Clipper

A real showstopper!

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I for one think they need to make debt a big thing again. Gone are the days when you'd break down in tears when you died and had half a bar of debt fom that one death (I certainly did anyway...).

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is really funny when I get a lag spike or griefed and die without any fault of my own.

Debt is ****. Just because it doesn't stink as bad as other 'solutions' in a generic MMO framework that feels it has to heavily punish you for dying, for some confused reason that dying should be important even though the whole reason we're not playing iron man is because we dont want to die, doesn't mean it's good.

I put forward the idea that total team wipe, including solo, should result in mission failure, which no-one liked even though it makes sense that Dead = Lose. It's too harsh, obviously. Grab a decent team or some friends and you can grind through debt no problem, but holy knickers, actually failing the mission!? We can't have our heroes failing when they get torn to pieces by an enraged Warwolf, that's ludicrous, it's an actual consequence! Just give us some more debt we can grind through please.

Debt can kiss my backside, I love having no debt, I love not having to worry when I die, and I love that I can play with people willing to hit Self Destruct instead of running like hell because masochists want their computer to stab them in the leg with a spring loaded knife when their toon dies.

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Muchos agreement, even though SD does not in-fact give any debt anyway
Debt is the MOST depressing thing to log into. I used to never play my squisher characters after a certain point. My blaster, for example, would log on to find nearly a whole ring of debt. This was mainly, back then, due to horrible lag spikes and some quite challenging runs in Faultline. When they crushed debt a bit, it meant I could actually log on for even a short time, smack a few missions about, and feel like I was making some progress on even the lowliet of characters. It was more FUN.
Its a game. And a game has one objective and one main objective only. To be FUN. Everything else is a bonus.

I agree to adding more options (Options is gud! ) for higher diffs, nastier spawns, etc. But DONT NERF STUFF. Nerfing leads down a rocky road to utter, utter ruin.

And whoever mentioned doing to PvE what was done to PvP, well-SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAMMM!!- ...-nods-

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