In praise of Nerfs!
By
Blind_Minotaur,
Posted on: 2009-01-27 23:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Add an extra level of difficulty, dont keep [censored] up peoples chars.
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That is the literal answer, all the fiddling with powers ends up with one thing, more imbalance and more upset players..... there needs to be pressure to increase NPC AI, to involve more dynamic effects and variables that allow different powers to offer different biases on circumstance, to increase the variety not simply of what the powers can do but how they are applied....to expand the game in a manner that players percieve as exciting positive and prgressive and not be bound by the same heavy handed knee jerk reaction to one scenario that occurs wayyyy too often.(a direct result from the lack of variety) that has consistently failed from day one.
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Id disagree there. If this game handnt fiddled around with ED, burn nerfs, etc, it wouldnt be here today.
Ive nothing against anoterdifficulty level, little to be lost by it. However, its on the understanding thats it just engaging in arms race. Endless buff cycles will lead to endless difficuty raises. Its a dead end.
Ive been reflecting when I started playing the game (prioor to ED). Did I experience face plants? Sure, a lot.
But they all had one phrase in common
"Mega xp"
i.e. people racked up difficulty to far, or had uneven team profiles. In other words, the bulk of the team where fighting +3/+4s pre Single Origins.
If that team had just had a sensible difficulty and reasonable team split, we would allhave done fine. Not auto pilot, we would have had to have worked and there would be deaths, but it would have been a totally acceptable difficulty.
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And whoever mentioned doing to PvE what was done to PvP, well-SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAMMM!!- ...-nods-
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The real irony of this Tech (and I realise it wasn't you that made the original statement) is that PVE players have had to put up with changes to PVE under the guise of PVP balance for too long, so the point is moot.
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
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Ive been reflecting when I started playing the game (prioor to ED). Did I experience face plants? Sure, a lot.
But they all had one phrase in common
"Mega xp"
i.e. people racked up difficulty to far, or had uneven team profiles. In other words, the bulk of the team where fighting +3/+4s pre Single Origins.
If that team had just had a sensible difficulty and reasonable team split, we would allhave done fine. Not auto pilot, we would have had to have worked and there would be deaths, but it would have been a totally acceptable difficulty.
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Agreed ... Pre SO teams on +4 mobs would be counter productive.
However ...
Mr Questionmark had a very good idea to make the rep increase something that would only be able to be gained at level 40.
That would work IMO.
Proud member of FOXBASE ALPHA and coalition associates.
Hero 50's - 25
Villain 50's - 1
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I agree to adding more options (Options is gud! 
) for higher diffs, nastier spawns, etc. But DONT NERF STUFF. Nerfing leads down a rocky road to utter, utter ruin.
And whoever mentioned doing to PvE what was done to PvP, well-SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAMMM!!- ...-nods-
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Thats not true, nerfing doesnt lead down a road to ruin.
Stupid, unjustified nerfing does, justified nerfing doesnt.
As a matter of fact there are several mmorpgs where the LACK of adjusting and "nerfing" specific classes and powers, made the games lose many customers, cause the ppl had the feeling the game was unbalanced and broken.
Age of Conan. Warhammer online, Anarchy online even WoW just to name a few.
Reasonable nerfing and buffing is the key to a good mmorpg to achieve a state of relative balance between the classes and powers.
Its not much fun to be forced into playing specific classes or combos just to be competitive, at least imo and some others.
I think many people just read "NERF" and stop there.
This thread was allways about nerfing only in conjuction with buffing, only to overperforming sets, and only shaving off the excess power (back to AVERAGE, not underperforming sets).
And yet it seems some people think I was screaming for collosal nerfs to everything in order to upset people. Read the original post.
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I think many people just read "NERF" and stop there.
This thread was allways about nerfing only in conjuction with buffing, only to overperforming sets, and only shaving off the excess power (back to AVERAGE, not underperforming sets).
And yet it seems some people think I was screaming for collosal nerfs to everything in order to upset people. Read the original post.
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No i think people read what you said, it was just no one except M agreed with you.
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No i think people read what you said, it was just no one except M agreed with you.
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Of course nobody agrees, cause noone likes their chars get weaker.
Even the ones that DO feel the sets are overpowered wont admit it in a forum.
Every person i know in game, in SG, in friends list agrees that SS/WP is the best brute combo by far....
Would the admit its overpowered if that could lead to a nerf of their best farming toons ?
NEVER EVER....
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No i think people read what you said, it was just no one except M agreed with you.
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Of course nobody agrees, cause noone likes their chars get weaker.
Even the ones that DO feel the sets are overpowered wont admit it in a forum.
Every person i know in game, in SG, in friends list agrees that SS/WP is the best brute combo by far....
Would the admit its overpowered if that could lead to a nerf ?
NEVER EVER....
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Well all that tells me is you are in a minority and need to stop worrying about things that have nothing to do with you.
No one's forcing you to play these sets that you see as over powered, and please dont come out with that chestnut about needing to play a certain powerset to be needed or useful, because anyone that succumbs to peer group pressure in a game, well.....
No ones forced into anything, if a lot of people play a certain combo its because they want to or like them because they are good, if you dont want to follow the crowd, dont. Make a brute with no shields and show everyone what a trend setter you are.
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Of course nobody agrees, cause noone likes their chars get weaker.
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Well, I disagree that we need more nerfs, we've had more than enough already and some of my toons have been on the receiving end of them. One of them got hit harder than most by ED and IO's haven't made up the shortfall. No more of my toons would be affected by the changes you proposed because I don't use any of those power sets in any of them. I still don't like the idea though.
I love it how people always claim the opposing view is the minority in these debates, with magical invisible statistics on this pulled from their backsides. You do know that the people who post on the forums in general are the real minority compared to those who don't post on (or even read) the forums, right? A forum community is not an entirely accurate representation of the players as a whole, posting on forums implies a deeper interest in the game or other people playing the game, than smashing NPCs.
Personally, I'm all for bringing Super Strength down to a sensible level (drop Foot Stomp from its status of best PBAoE in the game), and as a buff, losing the -defense in Rage so it doesn't penalize defense based armor sets. Not sure what can be done about WP, if it really is OP enough to warrant change. WP just seems the most casual-friendly to me. How to change this, or make the others more casual-friendly without making the game too easy or causing a forum flamestorm from the huge amount of people using Willpower after it's been toned down... I don't know.
But seriously, -something- needs to be done when the odds of a Brute -not- being SS/WP in a pick-up group are relatively small. And we can't just keep buffing everyone else forever, or [insert exaggerated example about oneshotting Hamidon here].
A few brief points:
Firstly, I agree that the game is easy. And likely, becoming TOO easy.
Secondly, this is not necessarily down to decreased mission difficulty or buffed powersets. It's down to having a lot more incidental buffs or extra fluff powers to rely on in a pinch than we did N years ago.
To give an example of this... if your team gets into trouble fighting an AV, or a big spawn, what do you do nowadays compared to a few years ago?
Well a few years ago you didn't have dual-builds. You didn't have Set bonuses giving you softcapped ranged defence or Perma PA/Dull Pain/Adrenaline Boost. You didn't have Procs giving you Full Invis, extra damage or boatloads of recovery. You didn't have the veteran attacks or Self Destruct. You might not even have had Shivans or Warburg Nukes. Fluff powers. Powers that are "extra" to the normal powersets but ones that come in incredibly handy in a pinch.
Yesterday I joined a ITF run on Defiant. Asked what AT they needed and they said a Tanker. Fair enough says I, and joined with my INV/SS. We had a Kinetic Troller and a Dark MM with us, along with two Blasters, a Scrapper, a Human Form PB and a Brute. No dedicated Healer or Bubbler, but we breezed through all the content until the last mission with only a few deaths (mostly self-inflicted "Blasterisms"). We stealthed straight to the Boss fight, but Nictus Rommy caused us some problems.
The first fight I was able to aggro both Rommy and the Nictus and get the team to immob Rommy, and he went down like a Fire/Fire Blaster with a trayful of blues. When he rezzed the team got mezzed. I kept aggro on the AV and fluffies (thankyou IOs for the extra survivability) but the ambush mob wiped some of the team. This time we weren't able to maneuver the fluffies away from Rommy (I was taunting Rommy like anything, but the Nictus followed him everywhere and stayed put when he was immobilised). Cue the team all hospitaling and then wiping repeatedly at the mission entrance (ambush mob). Depression starts to set in. Eventually we get back to where we started, staring at Rommy and his two fluffies. What do we do now? We don't have the firepower to "brute force" a kill with the Nictus healing him, certainly not without more buffers or someone locking down ambush aggro. If try and fail to pull Rommy and his Nictus apart, then we might wipe again and teammates will likely start dropping out of frustration.
In the old days you would have relyed upon tactics and luck, trying to pull them apart. Or perhaps an inspiration rush. These days it just took the usual three Warburg Nukes and a Shivan, the resulting fast kill got the team spirits back up again rightly and we kicked his [censored] twice more for good measure, followed by some tower hunting for the TF win. We had some other options to fall back on too, as the PB had a dual-build with Dwarf + Taunt available... or there are always the SG base temporary Empowerment Station buffs.
Now in my opinion these extra powers increase the fun level of a game (it's not fun to lose, just to be challenged) and I don't think nerfs are in order. But what I would like to see is a higher level of difficulty, perhaps an "expert mode" setting that greatly increases mob damage output/damage resistance/HP, but gives you a boost in influence gain, chance for a recipe to drop or EXP. This would provide an incentive for those of us that have more extreme capabilities (all IO'ed up, min-maxxed etc) to fight foes that are far more challenging than usual, whilst not affecting those of us with "normal builds".
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Not convinced
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This.
1. CoH/V is all about superheroes and their villainous counterparts. Nerf player toons too much and the game will not feel "super" enough for many. We are already a bit on the weak side in that regard when we take some of the more powerful comic heroes as standard.
2. In most cases nerfs do not make the game more challenging. It just takes longer to chew through the same challenge. Tedious != challenging.
3. Nerfs affect everyone no matter if the game is already challenging enough for a person or not. One man's challenge is another man's frustration.
4. Do not torment the devs! They "live" on the US boards. Some tanker players over there are still not quite done crying for issue 4.
5. Every player has it in his own hands to make the game more challenging. Fire/Rad controller too easy? Try an underdog build... in fact try and see just how bad a build can be before it is too bad to complete a mission on medium difficulty.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
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And yet it seems some people think I was screaming for collosal nerfs to everything in order to upset people. Read the original post.
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See, I disagree with you there, I think people have read your original post. If I put all of your premise in to a list for example:
<ul type="square">[*]im not calling for a nerf on any particular power set[*]Im talking about nerfs as in power balancing[*]im working on the proposition that the game is too easy[*]Even if you crank this up to invinicble, most end game team, even if poorly equipped SO toons, end up going on autopilot[*]THIS GAME MUST NOT GET ANY EASIER[*]THE SETS ARE NOT PERFECTLY BALANCED[*]STRIVING TO ACHEIVE BALANCE IS A GOOD THING[*] We need Nerfs. Given how easy this game is at the moment, we need them AS MUCH (if not slightly more) than Buffs [/list]
Now, nobody here has said that game balancing shouldn't continue. It's happened for as long as I have been playing and I am sure it will happen again.
The problem with your original post is that you are working from the premise that the game is too easy. Your whole premise for calling for said nerfs is that the game is too easy, as is summed up in the phrase: We need Nerfs. Given how easy this game is at the moment
What others have been trying to say to you is that even though certain people with a certain level of experience find this game easy, there are others who do not.
Your very argument has invited people to counter you on those points alone where as what I think you are trying to say (and please correct me if I am wrong) is that we still need power balancing within the game, a sentiment with which I actually agree. I don't thing there will ever be a point when the game is perfectly balanced.
As for the challenge. We can have more of a challenge, but that shouldn't come at the expense of new players and those who are having a challenging time already.
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@ Col_Blitzkrieger
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I love it how people always claim the opposing view is the minority in these debates
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I put it to you that, in this thread, the majority of people are opposed to the OP. I'm not saying that this is game wide but, as far as this discussion goes, the OP is in the minority. It is my belief that this is what was meant when 'the minority' was used earlier.
While I agree that some aspects of the game can be fairly easily overcome and new challenges are always welcome, nerfing power sets is a bad idea. All that does is punish the players who might already be having a hard time on various missions or SF's.
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Are you implying that if set on heroic, inexperienced teams find things to hard? That has not been my impression (LRSF, STF, and possibly ITF/Sewer Trial excluded).
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That would depend on the mission. There are plenty of missions which can be difficult, even on lower difficulty settings. But the fact is most people don't play on those difficulties, and not because they don't want to succeed, but because the rewards are scaled with difficulty. Would you join a team fighting mobs scarcely over your level? Hardly, you'll wait for them to up their reputation so you can get some decent experience.
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Also, it is perfectly doable to nerf particular combinations with minimal effect on individual sets. Fire/Kins, for instance (if one was inclined to nerf them - as per forum rules Im not asking to nerf this highly effective and powerful combination) could have hotfeet damage unbuffable, fire imps immune to recharge modification, or make containment give a +100% damage bonus (or something other than the mechanic which allows you to double the damage cap). If you were inclinded to do so, of course. I pick this extremely powerful combination purely at random.
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Let's take your example, however. Changing containment would also affect Gravity Controllers, Ice controllers, Mind controllers etc. You've effectively BUFFED them because they receive a constant 100% damage bonus rather than only receiving their double damage when their targets are held. Also, making Hot Feet unbuffable weakens Fire controllers who don't have Kin as a secondary as well. Congratulations, you've nerfed those players!
See what I mean? You can't just change one aspect of any powerset because it will affect every combination which uses those sets. Many people choose powers in tandem with another because they work well as a combination. That is something which should be encouraged not punished. The difficulty should be in the targets, not with the individual players because there's too many variables which can affect gameplay.
I suppose my big point is that until difficulty becomes separate to experience gain, we'll never see players doing anything but the hardest settings. People want to get experience (or inf) in the fastest and most economical way possible, and that's generally through doing missions which involve either defeating a lot of reasonably higher level mobs or storming your way through a base filled with bosses. Unyielding "farming" missions and Invincible story missions respectively. Add another difficulty, and people will only want to play on that higher level for the bonus experience rewards.
It doesn't have a simple solution; there's no black and white here. And if you can figure out the best way to increase the challenge without suddenly making newcomers feel overwhelmed, then perhaps you should apply to NC for a job
Characters:
The Heroic Mary Grace (50)
The Mystical Thunderspark (50)
The Candy-loving Little Jenny (50)
I normally consider one single solitary defeat of anyone in the team a fail. Most people fail at perception range and line of sight and this can be the main single cause of someone getting killed.
That is unless I am on a villain and then I couldn't give a toot, to get others killed would be playing to my heroic side. Although I would still get annoyed at teams that have no cohesion whatsoever that field trips to the hospital would happen every 5 mins.
Honestly if you want challenges you can set them for yourself. I do run some gimped experimental builds intentionally. Sometimes I keep to basic or as I like to think of them "classic" builds and I thrive on finding/looking for alternative methods. Sure sometimes establishing totally safe ways (whats the healer for?) can initially come with trials and tribulations but once they're found I am happy. Happy that a lack of designer teams, toons and temp powahs won't necessarily make things impossible, it's generally only how we play together and get on, that decides that...okay and maybe having the key powers in the primaries and secondaries.
I do think a higher setting is okay but to be brief just imagine Unyielding with more higher ranks than minions. Forget setting to fight +5s as many peoples powers would be almost worthless despite IOs.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Of course nobody agrees, cause noone likes their chars get weaker.
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Well, I disagree that we need more nerfs, we've had more than enough already and some of my toons have been on the receiving end of them. One of them got hit harder than most by ED and IO's haven't made up the shortfall. No more of my toons would be affected by the changes you proposed because I don't use any of those power sets in any of them. I still don't like the idea though.
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Hang on you quoted me, it wasnt me! 
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Hang on you quoted me, it wasnt me!
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Oops sorry. Can't have been my fault though, I'm a super hero don't you know 
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Hang on you quoted me, it wasnt me!
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Oops sorry. Can't have been my fault though, I'm a super hero don't you know
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Nemesis plot?
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
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Of course nobody agrees, cause noone likes their chars get weaker.
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Well, I disagree that we need more nerfs, we've had more than enough already and some of my toons have been on the receiving end of them. One of them got hit harder than most by ED and IO's haven't made up the shortfall. No more of my toons would be affected by the changes you proposed because I don't use any of those power sets in any of them. I still don't like the idea though.
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I didnt say we need to increase the rate of nerfing, but that some nerfing is required. But only in conjunction with buffing.
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I do think a higher setting is okay but to be brief just imagine Unyielding with more higher ranks than minions. Forget setting to fight +5s as many peoples powers would be almost worthless despite IOs.
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Against +5s, normal defence rules still apply and your powers are still pretty effective (30% of normal).
The only real challenge encountered when fighting mobs that are +5 to you is that they'll hit you a little over 50% harder than even-levels, so squishier toons will tend to be two-shot fairly quickly by +5 LTs or Bosses. It just takes more effort to kill them - consider the +4 AVs on the STF, or the RWZ "Scrapper Challenge".
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>Table 4: COMBAT MODIFIERS
Level Above Below
0 1 1
1 1.11 0.9
2 1.22 0.8
3 1.33 0.65
4 1.44 0.48
5 1.55 0.3
6 1.66 0.15
7 1.77 0.08
8 1.88 0.05
9 2 0.04
10 2.1 0.03
</pre><hr />
For me, the "ideal solution" would probably be to add the "expert mode" difficulty setting I brought up earlier (perhaps an extension of the tech currently in place for buffing enemies on flashback arcs?) that say adds 25% extra HP or resistance versus all damage to mobs and gives them all a 50% damage buff, without altering spawn size or level. This could be applied to any difficulty setting and be available as an extra option from the Hero/Fateweaver NPCs (and have some form of increased rewards for fighting foes with it turned on).
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I love it how people always claim the opposing view is the minority in these debates, with magical invisible statistics on this pulled from their backsides.
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Excellent Point. Ive looked through my posts and dont think I have ever claimed to be in a majority or minority. I have only presented an argument.
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But seriously, -something- needs to be done when the odds of a Brute -not- being SS/WP in a pick-up group are relatively small.
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Why's that then? What on earth has it got to do with you what power sets people choose to use?
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And we can't just keep buffing everyone else forever, or [insert exaggerated example about oneshotting Hamidon here].
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Thats right we cant keep on buff buff buffing, we can add another difficulty level, as has been suggested 30 times in this thread.
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I love it how people always claim the opposing view is the minority in these debates, with magical invisible statistics on this pulled from their backsides.
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Bummer being in the minority aint it.
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And yet it seems some people think I was screaming for collosal nerfs to everything in order to upset people. Read the original post.
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See, I disagree with you there, I think people have read your original post. If I put all of your premise in to a list for example:
<ul type="square">[*]im not calling for a nerf on any particular power set[*]Im talking about nerfs as in power balancing[*]im working on the proposition that the game is too easy[*]Even if you crank this up to invinicble, most end game team, even if poorly equipped SO toons, end up going on autopilot[*]THIS GAME MUST NOT GET ANY EASIER[*]THE SETS ARE NOT PERFECTLY BALANCED[*]STRIVING TO ACHEIVE BALANCE IS A GOOD THING[*] We need Nerfs. Given how easy this game is at the moment, we need them AS MUCH (if not slightly more) than Buffs [/list]
Now, nobody here has said that game balancing shouldn't continue. It's happened for as long as I have been playing and I am sure it will happen again.
The problem with your original post is that you are working from the premise that the game is too easy. Your whole premise for calling for said nerfs is that the game is too easy, as is summed up in the phrase: We need Nerfs. Given how easy this game is at the moment
What others have been trying to say to you is that even though certain people with a certain level of experience find this game easy, there are others who do not.
Your very argument has invited people to counter you on those points alone where as what I think you are trying to say (and please correct me if I am wrong) is that we still need power balancing within the game, a sentiment with which I actually agree. I don't thing there will ever be a point when the game is perfectly balanced.
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Excellent post, squire, you have actually put my position better than I did myself. Please allow me to further clarify:
I am of the veiw (and this is shared by every MMORPG I know of) that power balancing is a good idea. Our opinions on this are pretty irrelevant, barring some major shift in veiw, the devs are going to try and do this. We may persuade them to expend more or less resources on it, we may argue how to do it, or, most constructively, how to do it most efficiently.
As you say, absolute balance will clearly never be acheived. However, the argument that this fact means one should not balance is irrefutably invalid. Balancing attempts will (if done competently, of course), close the spread / gap between the underpowered and overpowered. That is the aim, not acheiving a perfect balance.
If civilization had taken the veiw "If we cant acheive perfection in this endevour, we wont do it", we would be in the stone age, perhaps without fire.
Anyway, my argument is, at its core, this:
If you ONLY balance by buffs, then you end up with a never ending cycle of buffs - this is, in fact, BECAUSE you can never acheive indefinite perfection.
No matter how easy you think the game is or isnt, or how much more challenging you can set it, a contant buff cycle will eventually catch up with you.
Please note: EXACTLY the same argument can be made for a constant nerf cycle without buffs. I would argue JUST as strongly that buffs are needed with Nerfs.
In summary:
Gently, accurately, buff underperforming sets
Gently, accurately, Nerf overperforming sets.
Otherwise, in the long run, you end up with a game that spirals out of control.
Nobody wants to play a game that is childishly simple. An endless buff cycle will get there. YOu can debate how soon it willget there, but given enough time, it will.
The only alternative is to engage in an arms race by an endless power buff of mobs. This is, of course, acceptable, but a) In essence, I beleive this just another way of nerfing every set slightly, and b) strikes me as less efficient use of resources.
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Gently, accurately, buff underperforming sets
Gently, accurately, Nerf overperforming sets.
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The problem is its easy for us to say the powersets should be more balanced, but the reasons for them being unbalanced in the first place are numerous. You have different damage categories, different resistances, different types of mez or holds. If you balance too much, you render different types useless in the long run because they'll all function exactly the same.
Characters:
The Heroic Mary Grace (50)
The Mystical Thunderspark (50)
The Candy-loving Little Jenny (50)
I would welcome the game becoming more challenging again (though in fairness the biggest change is debt), but I want the game itself to be the challenge not some adjustment that makes me weaker so the same things I used to be able to handle beat me...that is a negative and demoralising approach.
Over time experience and more make you a better player, in life a hero or villian comes to terms with how to use their power there is an evolution and change going on..... the game needs to evolve likewise - additional challenges need to become more varied and generate more intelligent missions and tasks (not just SF/TF that need more people).
In other words something new and fresh, not the continual application of a process that has repeatedly failed to fulfill its role, nerfing doesn't work the evidence is clear and obvious when you consider that each issue we mushroom the number of variables that have to be juggled or build types that have to be trimmed....we need to mushroom the variety of challenges and offer other 'rewards' for particular power selections and combinations so that the good and the bad are refelcted over a wider range of game activities and processes.