In praise of Nerfs!
By
Blind_Minotaur,
Posted on: 2009-01-27 23:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Add another level of difficulty and leave powers alone unless they are blatantly broken.
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All that would do is make already great performing sets even better , while other sets having trouble already are unplayble.
That would lead to the point where only specific sets or combos can run at highest difficulty, therfore getting a huge and unfair advantage in xp and inf gain.
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And what exactly is stopping others from rolling toons more suited to the higher diff if they want to reap the same XP?
I've plenty of toons which can't solo the higher difficutlies, but I don't begrudge those who can.
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Yeah everyone can roll well perfomring toons...
Might aswell remove 80% of the sets then.....cause many ppl will only roll toons that are able to do highest diff.
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You do realise your argument has gone from being just bad to gone to [censored] now dont you?
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Add another level of difficulty and leave powers alone unless they are blatantly broken.
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All that would do is make already great performing sets even better , while other sets having trouble already are unplayble.
That would lead to the point where only specific sets or combos can run at highest difficulty, therfore getting a huge and unfair advantage in xp and inf gain.
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And what exactly is stopping others from rolling toons more suited to the higher diff if they want to reap the same XP?
I've plenty of toons which can't solo the higher difficutlies, but I don't begrudge those who can.
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Yeah everyone can roll well perfomring toons...
Might aswell remove 80% of the sets then.....cause many ppl will only roll toons that are able to do highest diff.
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Erm, no they won't. At least not from what I've seen.
And you've managed to avoid the fact that on teams with high performing toons it doesn't matter, and that in terms of XP/Sec and especially in terms of drops lower settings are frequently better than higher ones.
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You do realise your argument has gone from being just bad to gone to [censored] now dont you?
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I do know several sets that wont be able to run on higher difficulty without faceplanting all time, while others wont have much probs
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You do realise your argument has gone from being just bad to gone to [censored] now dont you?
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I do know several sets that wont be able to run on higher difficulty without faceplanting all time, while others wont have much probs
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Is it really the set?
Or the player?
@MrMac & @MrMac2
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/MrMac/
But there's also a thing involved which goes outside the boundaries of AT/powerset/difficulty combinations. It's called player skill.
Skill, in this game, could quite widely be defined as knowing how powers work and consequently how to come up with proper builds for powerset combinations.
You exclaim that it's not possible for certain powersets to play missions on invincible*. Wrong. It's impossible for certain player/build combinations to do it.
*I'm not even going down to soloing EBs or AVs. They were never meant to be soloable.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Its the set.
The player may think its the player, but it is the set.
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You do realise your argument has gone from being just bad to gone to [censored] now dont you?
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I do know several sets that wont be able to run on higher difficulty without faceplanting all time, while others wont have much probs
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And that effects you or is a problem how?
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Its the set.
The player may think its the player, but it is the set.
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Combination of both is more likely.
A good player can make a bad set perfom... Adequate.
And reversed ofcourse. A bad player can make a good set perfom badly... I'm looking at empathy and fire/ blasters.
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Its the set.
The player may think its the player, but it is the set.
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Oh, really?
Okay, I'll go take my Rad/Psi Defender and try soloing Adamastor. My Rad powers are as good as the /Rad powers on an Ill/Rad troller, and the toon can dish out a fair amount of damage. Heck, let's make this even more fair and I'll bring along my Eng/Eng blaster, set up for dual control, and I'll try to Duo Adamastor.
I will fail.
Why? Because Even though an Ill/Rad can defeat him solo, that is a testament to the player's skill, not to the powersets involved. Sorry.
[Edit: No, I'm not saying I'm pathetic. I'm saying I'm not that good. Which, according to the poster quoted has nothing to do with it, because it's the set, not the player.]
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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Yeah everyone can roll well perfomring toons...
Might aswell remove 80% of the sets then.....cause many ppl will only roll toons that are able to do highest diff.
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Some people will roll them. People who want to PL through the levels but those who don't will have more diversity in there power sets and build choices.
It's like when I hear 'how it used to be' form some people saying that i3 was just 'City of Fire Tanks'. A bigger amount of rubbish has never been spouted.
Fire tanks were the FOTM when the game was originally released, I grant you, but there was a huge amount of people who didn't have them and never wanted them. I know some people who still can't play tanks because it doesn't suite there play style, so what do they do? Roll something else of course.
It is not, and never can be true, to say that everyone who plays always optimises there build.
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Yeah everyone can roll well perfomring toons...
Might aswell remove 80% of the sets then.....cause many ppl will only roll toons that are able to do highest diff.
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Some people will roll them. People who want to PL through the levels but those who don't will have more diversity in there power sets and build choices.
It's like when I hear 'how it used to be' form some people saying that i3 was just 'City of Fire Tanks'. A bigger amount of rubbish has never been spouted.
Fire tanks were the FOTM when the game was originally released, I grant you, but there was a huge amount of people who didn't have them and never wanted them. I know some people who still can't play tanks because it doesn't suite there play style, so what do they do? Roll something else of course.
It is not, and never can be true, to say that everyone who plays always optimises there build.
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I had one.
I was terrible. Ended up deleting him after about 26 levels because I sucked so badly at playing it.
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Its the set.
The player may think its the player, but it is the set.
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Oh, really?
Okay, I'll go take my Rad/Psi Defender and try soloing Adamastor. My Rad powers are as good as the /Rad powers on an Ill/Rad troller, and the toon can dish out a fair amount of damage. Heck, let's make this even more fair and I'll bring along my Eng/Eng blaster, set up for dual control, and I'll try to Duo Adamastor.
I will fail.
Why? Because Even though an Ill/Rad can defeat him solo, that is a testament to the player's skill, not to the powersets involved. Sorry.
[Edit: No, I'm not saying I'm pathetic. I'm saying I'm not that good. Which, according to the poster quoted has nothing to do with it, because it's the set, not the player.]
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Aehm you just agreed that its the set not the player :-)
Apart from ill/rad there is no other troller combo that can beat an AV solo no matter how skilled the player is.
So its the set that matters.
Of course a good set isnt as good when played by a bad player, it will only be average.
But if the same bad players plays a weak set he will just suck in everything.
It comes down to :
Powerfull sets, combos in the hand of skilled players are very powerfull, while in the hands of bad players they are average.
Bad sets, combos, in the hands of skilled players CAN be average, in the hands of bad players are a joke.
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I know some people who still can't play tanks because it doesn't suite there play style, so what do they do? Roll something else of course.
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And I will stand up and be counted amongst them.
I hate melee toons. Not so much that I won't roll one and see how they play every now and then (and I have several scrappers... the highest of which is, oh, L15, now), but give me a 'troller, defender, blaster or PB any day of the week. I also don't like WS for some reason. But my dislike of melee toons has stuck for over 3 years played.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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Aehm you just agreed that its the set not the player :-)
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I sincerely doubt it.
Alright then, I'll get an Ill/Emp up and try the job. Since it's clearly not Rad that's winning, it must be the Illusion Control powerset that's doing it.
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Apart from ill/rad there is no other troller combo that can beat an AV solo no matter how skilled the player is.
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Umm... the statement is that it was the set. Not the specific primary/secondary powerset combination. The (singular) set.
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So its the set that matters.
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So, which one is it, then? If it's Rad, my Rad defender should be able to manage. If it's illusion, I should be able to manage it with an Ill/Emp.
If, on the other hand, I roll an Ill/Rad and try it, am I automatically guaranteed success? I know I'm not the best player there is. I know my main pretty damn well, but most of my other characters I would say are only "average" with me at the helm.
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Of course a good set isnt as good when played by a bad player, it will only be average.
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It's not about the player, it's the set. So a good set can be average? Do you know how contradictory that statement is?
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But if the same bad players plays a weak set he will just suck in everything.
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According to your logic, if the set is weak, no one can make it a good one. And I, for one, think that's rubbish.
[Edit: Every argument you have stated is based on the assumption that player skill does have an impact. Which is contradictory to the statement that "it's the set, not the player".]
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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I had one.
I was terrible. Ended up deleting him after about 26 levels because I sucked so badly at playing it.
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I had one as well, very first character I played. Didn't take any of the power that I should have done to make me a PLers dream. I played him more like a scrapper. Just goes to show, I can't tank.
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I hate melee toons. Not so much that I won't roll one and see how they play every now and then (and I have several scrappers... the highest of which is, oh, L15, now), but give me a 'troller, defender, blaster or PB any day of the week. I also don't like WS for some reason. But my dislike of melee toons has stuck for over 3 years played.
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I hate tankers. I am a scrapper person through and through. I have enjoyed controllers, never played a defender up to 50 but do have a blaster which I loved...
See how too people can be so diverse. See why the variety will never go out of the game?
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Aehm you just agreed that its the set not the player :-)
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I sincerely doubt it.
Alright then, I'll get an Ill/Emp up and try the job. Since it's clearly not Rad that's winning, it must be the Illusion Control powerset that's doing it.
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PRAF mentioned in this very same thread that his Illusion/TA has done it. I know Ill/Stormies can do it too, if specced properly.
A Fire/Rad or Fire/Stormie could maybe do it too, depending on the AV I reckon.
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Aehm you just agreed that its the set not the player :-)
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I sincerely doubt it.
Alright then, I'll get an Ill/Emp up and try the job. Since it's clearly not Rad that's winning, it must be the Illusion Control powerset that's doing it.
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PRAF mentioned in this very same thread that his Illusion/TA has done it. I know Ill/Stormies can do it too, if specced properly.
A Fire/Rad or Fire/Stormie could maybe do it too, depending on the AV I reckon.
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Not denying that at all. And while Illusion control is undoubtedly the best 'troller set for soloing AVs, I cannot believe that player skill has no impact.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
A proportion of people will be influenced to stay in the game because they PuG and find variety in new toons, new players, new sets, etc. You may argue its a small proprotion, but from my limited experience, its a significant one. You may argue its not a strong factor - I woud concur, but it is there.
If certain sets become more popular, for whatever reason, then that variety is diminished.
Now, I would never suggest that peope are forced to play certain sets.
You may, however, have noticed the large number of a certain powerset combination floating around PI, or in Orebanga for instance. This particular combination is not a staple "Heroic" set like Superstrength/Invuln or anything like that. It is very difficult to suggest anything other than this powerset is so hidiously common because it is very effective. You can suggest it, but I think you will be laughed at. This is not to say that players choose said combination for perfectly good reasons, and I cant blame them for choosing this combination since it is so powerful.
You may say that this combination is not as common as I imply. I would reply we can argue about that exact proportion, im not interested. The very fact that everyone will know exactly which combination I am talking about makes it hard to deny it is more popular.
If I was a Dev I would be making a calculation in my head:
"Do we loose my players by nerfing said combination or by leaving it alone".
Guess thats their call. Personally, nerfing that combination means diddly squat to me as I dont have one. However, I would suggest that all Dev's, MMORPG's take the veiw that not balancing sets is, in the long run, a bad thing. However, the Devs seem to have taken the veiw, I one I can hardly blame them for, is that the game is in a sufficiently precarious position that short term losses are unacceptable. In their shoes, I would hope that recent investments in the game pay of over the next year or two, then tolerate that short term problem.
I would however, say that I do have another toon whom I judge to be horribly overpowered, not due to synergy, but because both sets just plain overperform (in both cases because they contain just one power that is laughably good). In this case, as I do have a toon that is directly affected, I would really love it to be nerfed.
Id would also really love to be honest and say which combination it is, but its against the forum rules.
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Aehm you just agreed that its the set not the player :-)
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I sincerely doubt it.
Alright then, I'll get an Ill/Emp up and try the job. Since it's clearly not Rad that's winning, it must be the Illusion Control powerset that's doing it.
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PRAF mentioned in this very same thread that his Illusion/TA has done it. I know Ill/Stormies can do it too, if specced properly.
A Fire/Rad or Fire/Stormie could maybe do it too, depending on the AV I reckon.
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Not denying that at all. And while Illusion control is undoubtedly the best 'troller set for soloing AVs, I cannot believe that player skill has no impact.
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Absolutely agree with you. I was more refuting the claim that ONLY illusion/rad can do it. I reckon a well prepared Fire/Rad or Storm could do it too, but they'd need to be a good player.
My attempts to do it with a Ill/Storm were painful. I just didn't have the knack, I haven't even tried with my Fire/Rad (or Grav/TA, a toon I made specifically because they are reckoned to be weak sets which is great fun because they require some thought and skill, especially early on. Mind you I'd still like a few TA tweaks).
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A proportion of people will be influenced to stay in the game because they PuG and find variety in new toons, new players, new sets, etc. You may argue its a small proprotion, but from my limited experience, its a significant one. You may argue its not a strong factor - I woud concur, but it is there.
If certain sets become more popular, for whatever reason, then that variety is diminished.
Now, I would never suggest that peope are forced to play certain sets.
You may, however, have noticed the large number of a certain powerset combination floating around PI, or in Orebanga for instance. This particular combination is not a staple "Heroic" set like Superstrength/Invuln or anything like that. It is very difficult to suggest anything other than this powerset is so hidiously common because it is very effective. You can suggest it, but I think you will be laughed at. This is not to say that players choose said combination for perfectly good reasons, and I cant blame them for choosing this combination since it is so powerful.
You may say that this combination is not as common as I imply. I would reply we can argue about that exact proportion, im not interested. The very fact that everyone will know exactly which combination I am talking about makes it hard to deny it is more popular.
If I was a Dev I would be making a calculation in my head:
"Do we loose my players by nerfing said combination or by leaving it alone".
Guess thats their call. Personally, nerfing that combination means diddly squat to me as I dont have one. However, I would suggest that all Dev's, MMORPG's take the veiw that not balancing sets is, in the long run, a bad thing. However, the Devs seem to have taken the veiw, I one I can hardly blame them for, is that the game is in a sufficiently precarious position that short term losses are unacceptable. In their shoes, I would hope that recent investments in the game pay of over the next year or two, then tolerate that short term problem.
I would however, say that I do have another toon whom I judge to be horribly overpowered, not due to synergy, but because both sets just plain overperform (in both cases because they contain just one power that is laughably good). In this case, as I do have a toon that is directly affected, I would really love it to be nerfed.
Id would also really love to be honest and say which combination it is, but its against the forum rules.
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Iv got to know, tell me 
I wouldnt want to seed somthing in your head. It might confuse you. Only a psychic could predict the shockwave.
Im always ready for a new FotM
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Aehm you just agreed that its the set not the player :-)
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I sincerely doubt it.
Alright then, I'll get an Ill/Emp up and try the job. Since it's clearly not Rad that's winning, it must be the Illusion Control powerset that's doing it.
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PRAF mentioned in this very same thread that his Illusion/TA has done it. I know Ill/Stormies can do it too, if specced properly.
A Fire/Rad or Fire/Stormie could maybe do it too, depending on the AV I reckon.
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Not denying that at all. And while Illusion control is undoubtedly the best 'troller set for soloing AVs, I cannot believe that player skill has no impact.
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Never said player skill has no impact.
Of course player skill has impact on a toons performance.
All i said is that there are sets and combos which are good no matter how skilled player is.
And there are sets and combos which wont really shine no matter how skilled player is.
Some sets and or combos are very good even if played by a bad player while in the hands of a skilled player they become just awesome.
*Blink* Then what the heck does "it's not the player, it's the set" actually mean?
By my understanding, it means "no matter what player you put behind it, the set is just as capable", which is utter poppycock, as you have just admitted.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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Add another level of difficulty and leave powers alone unless they are blatantly broken.
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All that would do is make already great performing sets even better , while other sets having trouble already are unplayble.
That would lead to the point where only specific sets or combos can run at highest difficulty, therfore getting a huge and unfair advantage in xp and inf gain.
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And what exactly is stopping others from rolling toons more suited to the higher diff if they want to reap the same XP?
I've plenty of toons which can't solo the higher difficutlies, but I don't begrudge those who can.
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Yeah everyone can roll well perfomring toons...
Might aswell remove 80% of the sets then.....cause many ppl will only roll toons that are able to do highest diff.