Castle's Post on PvP changes

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I completely understand and im not trying to be confrontational, but that is YOUR choice not to do that, i suppose what im trying to get at is that everyone is on the same playing field when they start to play this game, the people that excell in different areas of the game do so because they put in the time and effort, be it rolling certain power sets earning the relevant IO's needed and creating multiple characters for that one scenario.

Im just trying to make people understand why some of the PvP'ers are reacting the way they do, as would many PvE'ers would if there area of expertease was suddenly drastically changed. which we know for a fact it will be based of the PvP list castle posted.

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Oh I understand. I'd be annoyed if I'd spent ages leveling the ultimate stud muffin as well. I've always just thought I shouldn't have to, having to grind in a game is normally a sign that something is wrong somewhere.
I hope they tweak the movement suppression though, I like the dogfighting feel I get from pvp in this game, even though I always take SJ.

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Indeed. Under the the old system people put in a lot of work to get to the top of the heap.

It's understandable that they would feel resentful if someone kicks over the heap and levels it off.

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Its not just that, i for one have suffered a few swings of the nerf bat on various chars, and after 4 years im getting to the stage where i cant be arsed rolling new chars after the last one i liked playing in a certain scenario became un fun to play.

Anyway we get what we get, roll on the open beta.

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I completely understand and im not trying to be confrontational, but that is YOUR choice not to do that, i suppose what im trying to get at is that everyone is on the same playing field when they start to play this game, the people that excell in different areas of the game do so because they put in the time and effort, be it rolling certain power sets earning the relevant IO's needed and creating multiple characters for that one scenario.

Im just trying to make people understand why some of the PvP'ers are reacting the way they do, as would many PvE'ers would if there area of expertease was suddenly drastically changed. which we know for a fact it will be based of the PvP list castle posted.

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Oh I understand. I'd be annoyed if I'd spent ages leveling the ultimate stud muffin as well. I've always just thought I shouldn't have to, having to grind in a game is normally a sign that something is wrong somewhere.
I hope they tweak the movement suppression though, I like the dogfighting feel I get from pvp in this game, even though I always take SJ.

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Yes, and this is the only issue i have with upcoming changes, i will adapt to what ever is thrown at me, but by adding the movement supression i feel it takes away the one unique aspect of CoX PvP and what i personally find so fun about playing it, take away this selling point and i cant help but feel it will ruin it for me.

EDIT: Of course, my opinion doesnt have any worth in the big scale of things

I think that fast paced movement as people call it, is indeed a unique aspect of COH pvp.

However, I feel it also made pvp bit bland because basically all pvp characters had to utilize same movement powers and slotting to be any good. There were very few exceptions to combat jumping/SJ+SS. To be honest I got bored about it. Especially since no PvE builds would have movement slotting to that extent. This created a major gap between PvE and PvP builds which may now be made smaller.

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Way to go on prejudging the changes before you've even tried them. You're showing EXACTLY the same attitude many people showed about ED, and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM were WRONG about it. ED was GOOD for the game, and IMO, so will this be.


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Now thats not quite true is it, ED was good for the game once inventions came along 18 months later or how ever long it was.

Before that ED [censored] up a lot of peoples characters.



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What inventions did was bring WoW aspect to COH. I hate inventions now, and my opinion about ED has not changed. Still.

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Way to go on prejudging the changes before you've even tried them. You're showing EXACTLY the same attitude many people showed about ED, and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM were WRONG about it. ED was GOOD for the game, and IMO, so will this be.


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Now thats not quite true is it, ED was good for the game once inventions came along 18 months later or how ever long it was.

Before that ED [censored] up a lot of peoples characters.



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What inventions did was bring WoW aspect to COH. I hate inventions now, and my opinion about ED has not changed. Still.

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Hate it or not, inventions or rather set bonus's filled the gaps left by ED.

I agree with Hammerfall on everything he said there.

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I completely understand and im not trying to be confrontational, but that is YOUR choice not to do that, i suppose what im trying to get at is that everyone is on the same playing field when they start to play this game, the people that excell in different areas of the game do so because they put in the time and effort, be it rolling certain power sets earning the relevant IO's needed and creating multiple characters for that one scenario.

Im just trying to make people understand why some of the PvP'ers are reacting the way they do, as would many PvE'ers would if there area of expertease was suddenly drastically changed. which we know for a fact it will be based of the PvP list castle posted.

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Oh I understand. I'd be annoyed if I'd spent ages leveling the ultimate stud muffin as well. I've always just thought I shouldn't have to, having to grind in a game is normally a sign that something is wrong somewhere.
I hope they tweak the movement suppression though, I like the dogfighting feel I get from pvp in this game, even though I always take SJ.

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Yes, and this is the only issue i have with upcoming changes, i will adapt to what ever is thrown at me, but by adding the movement supression i feel it takes away the one unique aspect of CoX PvP and what i personally find so fun about playing it, take away this selling point and i cant help but feel it will ruin it for me.

EDIT: Of course, my opinion doesnt have any worth in the big scale of things

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Exactly. The point is that things take longer to kill, and movement will seemingly be perma suppressed unless the zone is empty or you're a stalker.

The fast paced PvP of CoX is the only real draw above other games, as most RPGs follow the same format of picking particular powers/spells/moves and combining them with other buffs/enchantments/aides from other ATs. I just think that the travel suppression alone will make PvP a lot more dull. I could learn to be good again, nothing would stop me, except my own lack of enjoyment.

and to clarify I was being ironic about my subs, because I'm getting a bit bored of the game anyway and my sub lasts till february 09 when I probably won't renew. I did lol at FFM's response tho

Update:

From here
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Castle:

Posting this here:

Keep both systems, do whatever you want with the new one.

For the arena, make the pre-i13 system an option. No new supression, no diminishing returns, no dmg resistance buffs.

- Max end recovery
- No observers
- Pre i13 system

Is feasible, no?

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Potentially. We're looking into exactly that.

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From here
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Yes, I'd love to add some meaningful "games" to the arena's -- King of the Hill, Capture the Flag, Zone Control (aka Domination.)

I think having those would allow different AT's to shine in difference circumstances.

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From here
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Yes, I'd love to add some meaningful "games" to the arena's -- King of the Hill, Capture the Flag, Zone Control (aka Domination.)

I think having those would allow different AT's to shine in difference circumstances.

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woah, now if only they went through with it.

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Yes, and this is the only issue i have with upcoming changes, i will adapt to what ever is thrown at me, but by adding the movement supression i feel it takes away the one unique aspect of CoX PvP and what i personally find so fun about playing it, take away this selling point and i cant help but feel it will ruin it for me.

EDIT: Of course, my opinion doesnt have any worth in the big scale of things

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PvP is a very small part of the game like 5% of the content.
Partially taking away that absolutely stupid bunnyhopping superspeeders ONLY in PvP is really not taking away a HUGE part of the game feeling like many ppl say.

How many ppl do actually PvP ? Maybe 10% at most ?
How many ppl who PvP are AGAINST movement supression ?
Exactly....the RANGED ATs, i doubt many meele players cry about the supression.

PvP was imbalanced to a degree that was gamebreaking, forcing players to get ss AND cj or tp foe to fight ranged ATs, and even with those travelpowers its almost impossible for meele chars to kill blasters hopping around with ss and blasting from a safe range all time.

The new PvP system might ruin PvP for some ppl who love to be the "Kings of PvP" and claim its their skill why they are so good in PvP.

Atm its 95% AT and set that let you win and not skill.

Taking away the IWIN button for certain AT and combos might be hard for some players, but if they cant see that those changes are FAIR for ALL ATs and combos, i am more than happy those egoists leave the game cause of I13.

And if those "skilled" players disagree and still think its skill, the new changes shouldnt bother them anyway... since skilled players adapt and will win anyways.

Once and for all....

IF THERE REALLY WAS AN "I WIN" BUTTON, YOU'D BE USING IT TOO





THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN "I WIN" BUTTON

...except for the special dev's power.


Also, if it's not their skill, then what is it that makes the best better than others with exactly the same build? Backhanders to the GMs?

And I'll say it once again, travel powers are the only thing that make CoX PvP fun.

As for the whole "imbalanced" thing... what's to stop you from making exactly the same or similiar character to "the best" and then beating them if it's 95% AT and they have no skill? I would agree with this argument if people were allowed only one toon per server, but they are not. They are allowed at least 8, which in my opinion leaves room for a couple of PvP toons easily.

You might want to PvP with your concept toon but I'm afraid just like most things in life, it doesn't work like that and it shouldn't. Certain things are better at certain jobs than others, but this does not make them worse, infact it makes it better. It adds a diversity to this game which allows for people to have multiple versions of the same AT, e.g. an ice blaster and an archery blaster, with an actual point, rather than just having different FX. Ice Blast has better single target damage/activation whereas archery has quite devastating aoe damage (albeit sometimes resisted).
This diversification is allowed in PvE, I don't get why it shouldn't allowed in PvP.

I'd hate it if team tactics were reduced to AT rather than powersets, as this would oversimplify team pvp and turn it more in to RPS than I would like.

But then again most people with arrogant and uninformed views on PvP will ignore these words and simply cry out "OMG X IS OVERPOWERED BUT I WANT TO WIN IT WITH MY AR/TRAPS RP TOON AT LEVEL 12 WITH NO ENHANCEMENTS" because they got hit in the face once by someone who knows what they are doing in a PvP zone.





imho

EDIT: [censored] knows I might just be speaking out of my [censored] anyway... it's late.

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EDIT: [censored] knows I might just be speaking out of my [censored] anyway... it's late.


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Your spot on tbh.

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Once and for all....

IF THERE REALLY WAS AN "I WIN" BUTTON, YOU'D BE USING IT TOO





THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN "I WIN" BUTTON

...except for the special dev's power.


Also, if it's not their skill, then what is it that makes the best better than others with exactly the same build? Backhanders to the GMs?

And I'll say it once again, travel powers are the only thing that make CoX PvP fun.

As for the whole "imbalanced" thing... what's to stop you from making exactly the same or similiar character to "the best" and then beating them if it's 95% AT and they have no skill? I would agree with this argument if people were allowed only one toon per server, but they are not. They are allowed at least 8, which in my opinion leaves room for a couple of PvP toons easily.

You might want to PvP with your concept toon but I'm afraid just like most things in life, it doesn't work like that and it shouldn't. Certain things are better at certain jobs than others, but this does not make them worse, infact it makes it better. It adds a diversity to this game which allows for people to have multiple versions of the same AT, e.g. an ice blaster and an archery blaster, with an actual point, rather than just having different FX. Ice Blast has better single target damage/activation whereas archery has quite devastating aoe damage (albeit sometimes resisted).
This diversification is allowed in PvE, I don't get why it shouldn't allowed in PvP.

I'd hate it if team tactics were reduced to AT rather than powersets, as this would oversimplify team pvp and turn it more in to RPS than I would like.

But then again most people with arrogant and uninformed views on PvP will ignore these words and simply cry out "OMG X IS OVERPOWERED BUT I WANT TO WIN IT WITH MY AR/TRAPS RP TOON AT LEVEL 12 WITH NO ENHANCEMENTS" because they got hit in the face once by someone who knows what they are doing in a PvP zone.





imho

EDIT: [censored] knows I might just be speaking out of my [censored] anyway... it's late.

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Funny you only talked about blasters in your example........

Funny that Villains dont get blasters, even more funny that you NEED villains to PvP as a blaster.

PvP should be fun and possible for ALL AT no matter what set combos.

Well your rude post shows, that your the kind of PvPer most players dont like to PvP at all.

Get a clue for gods sake, ranged classes that totally dominate PvP are the reason Warhammer online looses customers like crazy.


Try to kill bunnyhopping blasters or trollers in PvP as a villain meele class and say PvP is balanced for meele AND ranged.

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Once and for all....

IF THERE REALLY WAS AN "I WIN" BUTTON, YOU'D BE USING IT TOO





THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN "I WIN" BUTTON

...except for the special dev's power.


Also, if it's not their skill, then what is it that makes the best better than others with exactly the same build? Backhanders to the GMs?

And I'll say it once again, travel powers are the only thing that make CoX PvP fun.

As for the whole "imbalanced" thing... what's to stop you from making exactly the same or similiar character to "the best" and then beating them if it's 95% AT and they have no skill? I would agree with this argument if people were allowed only one toon per server, but they are not. They are allowed at least 8, which in my opinion leaves room for a couple of PvP toons easily.

You might want to PvP with your concept toon but I'm afraid just like most things in life, it doesn't work like that and it shouldn't. Certain things are better at certain jobs than others, but this does not make them worse, infact it makes it better. It adds a diversity to this game which allows for people to have multiple versions of the same AT, e.g. an ice blaster and an archery blaster, with an actual point, rather than just having different FX. Ice Blast has better single target damage/activation whereas archery has quite devastating aoe damage (albeit sometimes resisted).
This diversification is allowed in PvE, I don't get why it shouldn't allowed in PvP.

I'd hate it if team tactics were reduced to AT rather than powersets, as this would oversimplify team pvp and turn it more in to RPS than I would like.

But then again most people with arrogant and uninformed views on PvP will ignore these words and simply cry out "OMG X IS OVERPOWERED BUT I WANT TO WIN IT WITH MY AR/TRAPS RP TOON AT LEVEL 12 WITH NO ENHANCEMENTS" because they got hit in the face once by someone who knows what they are doing in a PvP zone.





imho

EDIT: [censored] knows I might just be speaking out of my [censored] anyway... it's late.

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Funny you only talked about blasters in your example........

Funny that Villains dont get blasters, even more funny that you NEED villains to PvP as a blaster.

PvP should be fun and possible for ALL AT no matter what set combos.

Well your rude post shows, that your the kind of PvPer most players dont like to PvP at all.

Get a clue for gods sake, ranged classes that totally dominate PvP are the reason Warhammer online looses customers like crazy.
Many players left Cox cause PvP was and is a joke, if the new changes can bring some of them back its great.


Try to kill bunnyhopping blasters or trollers in PvP as a villain meele class and say PvP is balanced for meele AND ranged.

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Yes, and this is the only issue i have with upcoming changes, i will adapt to what ever is thrown at me, but by adding the movement supression i feel it takes away the one unique aspect of CoX PvP and what i personally find so fun about playing it, take away this selling point and i cant help but feel it will ruin it for me.

EDIT: Of course, my opinion doesnt have any worth in the big scale of things

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PvP is a very small part of the game like 5% of the content.
Partially taking away that absolutely stupid bunnyhopping superspeeders ONLY in PvP is really not taking away a HUGE part of the game feeling like many ppl say.

How many ppl do actually PvP ? Maybe 10% at most ?
How many ppl who PvP are AGAINST movement supression ?
Exactly....the RANGED ATs, i doubt many meele players cry about the supression.

PvP was imbalanced to a degree that was gamebreaking, forcing players to get ss AND cj or tp foe to fight ranged ATs, and even with those travelpowers its almost impossible for meele chars to kill blasters hopping around with ss and blasting from a safe range all time.

The new PvP system might ruin PvP for some ppl who love to be the "Kings of PvP" and claim its their skill why they are so good in PvP.

Atm its 95% AT and set that let you win and not skill.

Taking away the IWIN button for certain AT and combos might be hard for some players, but if they cant see that those changes are FAIR for ALL ATs and combos, i am more than happy those egoists leave the game cause of I13.

And if those "skilled" players disagree and still think its skill, the new changes shouldnt bother them anyway... since skilled players adapt and will win anyways.

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Trying to keep in tone of light heartedness as i think your post was rather hostile unnecessarily.

I can understand where your coming from, however i feel the change to base movement supression is completely the wrong thing to (this is my own opinion of course).

Like i said i can adapt to anything that is thrown at me and i will however, the speed of CoX PvP was THE major selling point of many dedicated PvP'er. The fast paced action is what made it fun.

Keep the range reduction in taunt, add webnade to melee epics and i think this would keep the balance as close as possible. means they could immobolise the target for 2 seconds every 10 with the new mez changes (still unsure if that tips it too far in the melee's favoure - which is why they probally took it out in the first place - scrapper epic only afaik)

Of course i have no idea how this is playing out in beta now, but have been told it slows down the pace of the game quite dramatically which is the last thing i want.

Now in regards to skill when playing CoX PvP i certainly agree when playing a fire/em blaster against a mace/ea brute the blaster will win 9/10 regardless of player skill, however i feel when two people go up with simular builds it does require some amount of skill ( of course im regarding tactical movement, knowledge of powers ect all skill)

I still cant work out if your post was directed at me or you just happened to feel that way when you quoted me, however i think its unfair to label people that way. As i feel in my opinion i dont act like this

I think maybe you have had a bad experience as you seem rather bitter.

Apologies if this sounds confrontational (unless it was directed at me) in which case i am not

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Once and for all....

IF THERE REALLY WAS AN "I WIN" BUTTON, YOU'D BE USING IT TOO





THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN "I WIN" BUTTON

...except for the special dev's power.


Also, if it's not their skill, then what is it that makes the best better than others with exactly the same build? Backhanders to the GMs?

And I'll say it once again, travel powers are the only thing that make CoX PvP fun.

As for the whole "imbalanced" thing... what's to stop you from making exactly the same or similiar character to "the best" and then beating them if it's 95% AT and they have no skill? I would agree with this argument if people were allowed only one toon per server, but they are not. They are allowed at least 8, which in my opinion leaves room for a couple of PvP toons easily.

You might want to PvP with your concept toon but I'm afraid just like most things in life, it doesn't work like that and it shouldn't. Certain things are better at certain jobs than others, but this does not make them worse, infact it makes it better. It adds a diversity to this game which allows for people to have multiple versions of the same AT, e.g. an ice blaster and an archery blaster, with an actual point, rather than just having different FX. Ice Blast has better single target damage/activation whereas archery has quite devastating aoe damage (albeit sometimes resisted).
This diversification is allowed in PvE, I don't get why it shouldn't allowed in PvP.

I'd hate it if team tactics were reduced to AT rather than powersets, as this would oversimplify team pvp and turn it more in to RPS than I would like.

But then again most people with arrogant and uninformed views on PvP will ignore these words and simply cry out "OMG X IS OVERPOWERED BUT I WANT TO WIN IT WITH MY AR/TRAPS RP TOON AT LEVEL 12 WITH NO ENHANCEMENTS" because they got hit in the face once by someone who knows what they are doing in a PvP zone.





imho

EDIT: [censored] knows I might just be speaking out of my [censored] anyway... it's late.

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Funny you only talked about blasters in your example........

Funny that Villains dont get blasters, even more funny that you NEED villains to PvP as a blaster.

PvP should be fun and possible for ALL AT no matter what set combos.

Well your rude post shows, that your the kind of PvPer most players dont like to PvP at all.

Get a clue for gods sake, ranged classes that totally dominate PvP are the reason Warhammer online looses customers like crazy.
Many players left Cox cause PvP was and is a joke, if the new changes can bring some of them back its great.


Try to kill bunnyhopping blasters or trollers in PvP as a villain meele class and say PvP is balanced for meele AND ranged.

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Dude, you ever PvPed with Rooks?

Because he is one the nicest and most experianced PvPers we have.

No, villains dont get blasters, but they dont really need them. Corruptors are awesome tbh, and in the hands of a skilled played are not easy to beat. Domis are exactly the same. Brutes and stalkers can easily kill a blaster if played well and MMs can just ruin thier day.

The thing about this game is that it is all skill. I have seen some of the best PvPers on union come into zone on gimped builds and own, I have seen them come to fights out numbered at least 3:1 and still own. And finally I have seen Spag come in zone on a mind/fire domi and kill everything in the zone solo, thats 10+ heroes. The skill required to play PvP in this game is a lot more difficult to pick up than most realise, and even when you think you have your tactics down you can still get owned by something you werent expecting.

The main pull of PvP in this game is the fast paced action, its whats missing from all the other MMOs. The level of supression that has been suggested is going to kill a lot of the fun for many who have PvPed since the game started. This, in my opinion will not be good for the game, I think the surpression could be handled a lot better with out slowing the game down to a crawl!

Why does melee actually fail against ranged toons at the moment?


Being Rooted for 1-2seconds when you use a skill

I think addressing that issue would require alot more time and effort but would improve the balance more so than tweaking suppression values, and would allow for suppression to be removed from pvp entirely then just increase the endurance cost of travel powers.

My own little idea

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Why does melee actually fail against ranged toons at the moment?


Being Rooted for 1-2seconds when you use a skill

I think addressing that issue would require alot more time and effort but would improve the balance more so than tweaking suppression values, and would allow for suppression to be removed from pvp entirely then just increase the endurance cost of travel powers.

My own little idea

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Theres ways around it. A bane showed me that in sirens a month or so ago. He jumped into hurricane and then jumped out and activated the power as he was jumping out rendering
my max slotted tohit debuff hurricane useless also avoiding the repel. Sure he was still rooted when he used it but he overcame the the problem.

OT but is hurricane useful in RV? Everyone seems to have accuracy coming out of every orifice.

You you lose movement control when using attack powers, its not immobilse as such but the loss of control that i was refering to.

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Why does melee actually fail against ranged toons at the moment?


Being Rooted for 1-2seconds when you use a skill

I think addressing that issue would require alot more time and effort but would improve the balance more so than tweaking suppression values, and would allow for suppression to be removed from pvp entirely then just increase the endurance cost of travel powers.

My own little idea

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You guys do realize that after Castles proposed changes melee toons are even more screwed against ranged toons..?

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I think addressing that issue would require alot more time and effort but would improve the balance more so than tweaking suppression values, and would allow for suppression to be removed from pvp entirely then just increase the endurance cost of travel powers.


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Castle has said there will always be power rooting, it's something he can't get rid of. The -range from taunt would've gone along way to fixing the melee-range gap but the i13 movement suppression has made things worse.


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Theres ways around it. A bane showed me that in sirens a month or so ago. He jumped into hurricane and then jumped out and activated the power as he was jumping out rendering
my max slotted tohit debuff hurricane useless also avoiding the repel. Sure he was still rooted when he used it but he overcame the the problem.

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That's called jousting.... One of the "skills" people pick up.


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Try to kill bunnyhopping blasters or trollers in PvP as a villain meele class and say PvP is balanced for meele AND ranged.

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I have done and frequently do. If you can't kill a blaster and definitely a troller with a stalker (without TP foe) your doing something wrong. Try practising more

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Why does melee actually fail against ranged toons at the moment?


Being Rooted for 1-2seconds when you use a skill

I think addressing that issue would require alot more time and effort but would improve the balance more so than tweaking suppression values, and would allow for suppression to be removed from pvp entirely then just increase the endurance cost of travel powers.

My own little idea

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Theres ways around it. A bane showed me that in sirens a month or so ago. He jumped into hurricane and then jumped out and activated the power as he was jumping out rendering
my max slotted tohit debuff hurricane useless also avoiding the repel. Sure he was still rooted when he used it but he overcame the the problem.


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Hurricanes ToHit debuff sticks around for 10 seconds so there's no benefit in doing that, in terms of being able to avoid the debuff. More likely he had +ToHit &amp; maxed out Acc in his attacks.

Food for thought: i13 suppression + slows will be silly OP

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Why does melee actually fail against ranged toons at the moment?


Being Rooted for 1-2seconds when you use a skill

I think addressing that issue would require alot more time and effort but would improve the balance more so than tweaking suppression values, and would allow for suppression to be removed from pvp entirely then just increase the endurance cost of travel powers.

My own little idea

[/ QUOTE ]

Theres ways around it. A bane showed me that in sirens a month or so ago. He jumped into hurricane and then jumped out and activated the power as he was jumping out rendering
my max slotted tohit debuff hurricane useless also avoiding the repel. Sure he was still rooted when he used it but he overcame the the problem.


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Hurricanes ToHit debuff sticks around for 10 seconds so there's no benefit in doing that, in terms of being able to avoid the debuff. More likely he had +ToHit &amp; maxed out Acc in his attacks.

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In PvP, if you run through hurricane and jump as you do the attack the to-hit debuff has dropped before you hit so it can't be 10 seconds in PvP.