Castle's Post on PvP changes

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Or if they're suppressed.
Or if they're being KBd (Power Pushhh!!!)
Or if they're in a long animation like CM.

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All --> Standing Still. Except for the Knockback one, and last I checked Stalkers can't get Power Push....


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If you're being suppressed and bunny hopping, kiting, whatever, that is not the same thing as standing still. Getting an AS off requires a bit of skill here, as following and trying to AS can be tricky thanks to server lag. Still, it's possible.

Since you were implying that Stalkers are useless with the nerf to ET, I assumed that you were thinking teams. So can't a Stalker have his own, then? Power Push ftw. (Fortunata TK blast works great as well.)

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CMing whilst standing immobile on the ground? Stupid.
Suppressed and not Bunnyhopping? Stupid.

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CM has like a 3 second animation time... the Emp will touch the ground for long enough that Stalkers can get off an AS.
ASing while the other person is bunnyhopping can be done as well.


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I swear, some people still act like they don't even expect there to be a stalker nearby...

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People can know that there's a Stalker, but still they're limited by their powers' animation times and game mechanics.

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I guess as someone who's primarily a PvE-er I'm just a little excited at the prospect of some PvP balance finally being introduced to the game,

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And here is the problem as pve-er how can you have any idea of whats not balanced in pvp as it stands now? the changes being made are not balanced they just tip the scales from one side to the other.

You say your happy there is balance being added im sorry but if you dont pvp now how can you know, and by doing pvp now i mean not just going into a zone and coming out moaning that xyz is over powered i mean takeing part every day with a pure pvp toon.

Try looking at it from a pvp-ers point of view you may just see what we are not happy about.

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FFM you really dont understand how fast paced PvP works do you? If you did, you would realise that supression, even for a second can mean death. Now I understand they are making everyone have better resistance in PvP and lowering damage so that may not be so true, but the issue is that being slowed to a snails pace, doesnt really seem fitting for a game like this. And my personal issue is not with the supression, but the amount of it! Coupled with all the other nurfs, it just seems to me that balance will shift from ranged attacks to melee!

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Oh I do understand. Often things happen so fast that there just isn't TIME for much in the way of tactics. That's why I think these changes will be GOOD for PvP in the long run.

Sure, on paper they might not look so hot. But I say to you all, withhold judgment until you've actually TRIED the changes. And I'll be in there, trying them out too.

You see, though I'm not a PvPer, these changes DO intrigue me enough to see whether I might actually start to enjoy it now. Of course, that still depends on the number of childish morons trash talking in the zone and generally making the whole experience unpleasant for casuals.

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Sorry ffm but i dont think you get it, tactic are all well and good but the best part of cox pvp was the fast paced action, the movement "nerf" as im calling it will take away a large amount of the fun, in the long run i dont see this being of any help to new pvpers or new comers to the zones like yourself as there is a huge amount of skill to pvp and to be frank your clocks will still be cleaned even if we had to hop on one foot

Any suppressed foe will be easily ASable by any half decent stalker. And in i13 it looks like people will be suppressed a lot of the time, but AS is getting nerfed, as is anything that does any sort of decent damage.


30 minute last man standing duels between 2 blasters ftl tbh.



brb cancelling sub

hmmmm dont know how i feel about this, i'm pretty new to pvp really i went in an got killed an thought im not havin this an stuck at it. i now think im pretty gud, but im still learnin. these changes make me think back to my old swg days when it got runied by noobs shoutin for i want a jedi now.

the hard work an time ive put into my pvp toons, not just the inf, but the plannin the build an learnin to play them has just been given a big slap in the face.

ill reserve my final judgement till i can test it myself.....but its not lookin gud

a disappointed pvp fan

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I guess as someone who's primarily a PvE-er I'm just a little excited at the prospect of some PvP balance finally being introduced to the game,

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And here is the problem as pve-er how can you have any idea of whats not balanced in pvp as it stands now? the changes being made are not balanced they just tip the scales from one side to the other.

You say your happy there is balance being added im sorry but if you dont pvp now how can you know, and by doing pvp now i mean not just going into a zone and coming out moaning that xyz is over powered i mean takeing part every day with a pure pvp toon.

Try looking at it from a pvp-ers point of view you may just see what we are not happy about.

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Frankly, I've been there, tried that and given up because it was too unbalanced and sodding boring. Unbalanced due to a lack of variety amongst viable builds, and boring because it was the same maps, same tactics over and over and over with zero expansion from the developers ever since the Pocket D arena was introduced.

And I'm sick and tired of attitudes just like this one from people who classify themselves as some kind of elitist just because they happen to do the same thing in the arena every day for three years and think that somehow gives them the right to lord that experience over the rest of the playerbase, deeming said playerbase's opinions completely irrelevant unless they can claim identical levels of "real pvp experience". It makes it even more unbelievable whenever these same people then claim to be better with their powers and tactics in PvE than those of us who have been practicing said PvE all the time they were busy PvPing. PvP in this game is an elitist fightclub clique, at best unapproachable and at worst outright hostile towards new players, whilst simultaneously complaining about a decline in the number of PvP participants.

I know how the powers work, I've been in the arena, I've been in the zones, I've rolled "Pure PvP toons" to 50, I've duked (or kited, take your pick) it out versus FOTM builds. I simply prefer PvE. And that preference is based on an extreme lack of parity and balance amongst powersets in PvP. ANYTHING that the devs introduce which tries to upset that lack of balance is a good thing in my book.

I have seen no coherent arguments from these supposedly superior "Pure PvPers" that explain why they think changes geared towards vastly expanding the game's number of viable PvP builds are a bad idea, except that they just don't like the thought of sharing their little pond with the rest of us, or that they hate relearning gameplay tactics. The only thing approaching this has been "I don't like not being able to joust any more", which is a subjective statement but is at least understandable.

Worst case scenario: current PvPers leave, new PvE'ers try it out and decide it's still rubbish, the entire game goes on pretty much unchanged. Best case scenario: current PvPers stop whining and see how the changes actually pan out on live, new PvE'ers try it out and decide they like it. PvP playerbase increases.

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brb cancelling sub

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Way to go on prejudging the changes before you've even tried them. You're showing EXACTLY the same attitude many people showed about ED, and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM were WRONG about it. ED was GOOD for the game, and IMO, so will this be.

So go ahead, threaten to leave. But don't think for a second that anyone will take your threats to do it seriously, just like the 99.9% of people who threatened to leave over ED, didn't.

And if you DO leave? Well, who's going to actually care, or even notice? Just one less self righteous elitist demanding the game be played to THEIR specifications, and bugger anyone else. Well, I'm sorry bud, but the current PvP population are seriously outnumbered by the PvEers who wouldn't mind giving it a go, if they could actually get IN to the zones without getting gangbanged by a bunch of elitists with tricked out builds. Now we're going to actually have a fighting chance.

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If you're being suppressed and bunny hopping, kiting, whatever, that is not the same thing as standing still. Getting an AS off requires a bit of skill here, as following and trying to AS can be tricky thanks to server lag. Still, it's possible.

Since you were implying that Stalkers are useless with the nerf to ET, I assumed that you were thinking teams. So can't a Stalker have his own, then? Power Push ftw. (Fortunata TK blast works great as well.)

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I stated that Stalkers had become ignorable since the nerf to ET - ET was one of the few short-activating heavy damage mezzing attacks that can be activated from out of Hide. Leading off with Bonesmasher from Hide and immediately following up with ET was dangerous, as it could be used with impunity whilst autofollowing someone who was bunnyhopping.

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CM has like a 3 second animation time... the Emp will touch the ground for long enough that Stalkers can get off an AS.
ASing while the other person is bunnyhopping can be done as well.

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Assassin's strike, on the other hand, requires you to stay immobile for a second or two due to the interruptable component of the attack animation. Therefore you either have to know in advance where an enemy is going to be, or have to be very lucky/skilled when autofollowing someone in order that as soon as they become immobile, you can hit Build Up, Toggle off Autofollow and queue AS. And even then they won't die, since unless Procs in AS activate or they're already damaged, you'll need to land a follow up hit to bypass the one shot code.

So yes, currently if you're bunnyhopping properly and activating buffs like CM (which is 3.1 secs long, unlike its clone "Clarity" which is only 1.5 secs and far more spammable) at the crest of a a jump then you're very unlikely to be AS'ed, and even more unlikely to be actually killed by a Stalker.

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People can know that there's a Stalker, but still they're limited by their powers' animation times and game mechanics.

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And their skills, and the PvP system's unbalanced nature in general.

All of which brings us nicely back to my original point, which was that PvP is currently unfairly biased against melee combat, and against the overwhelmingly vast majority of possible powerset combinations.

Put it this way: How often would you rather choose a Scrapper OR Stalker over a Blaster for PvP? Assuming that we're talking generally and not specific cases such as a TO'ed AR/Dev/Munitions versus a Purpled EM/Regen/Soul.

That's the kind of disparity these changes are intended to address... and if they don't get it quite right during the first batch of testing, it'll be refined and refined until they do.

ED was good for gameplay, but it did loose a lot of subs, which would make it bad for the game.

Any radical changes to PvP are bound to alienate the core PvPers, for various reasons, and at least some of them are going to leave over it.

Even if these changes cause more PvEers to PvP, unless it actually brings in new players in it is going to cause a net loss in subscriptions.

Quite frankly, whatever you think of the "PvP clique", those are the people who you need to keep happy with the PvP gameplay, not people who would continue to pay thier subs just for PvE content.

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Way to go on prejudging the changes before you've even tried them. You're showing EXACTLY the same attitude many people showed about ED, and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM were WRONG about it. ED was GOOD for the game, and IMO, so will this be.


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Now thats not quite true is it, ED was good for the game once inventions came along 18 months later or how ever long it was.

Before that ED [censored] up a lot of peoples characters.

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Even if these changes cause more PvEers to PvP, unless it actually brings in new players in it is going to cause a net loss in subscriptions.

Quite frankly, whatever you think of the "PvP clique", those are the people who you need to keep happy with the PvP gameplay, not people who would continue to pay thier subs just for PvE content.

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There is more to it than that; if the changes keep some PvE players in the game longer, because it gives them more to do when pure PvE get a bit dull, that'll be a plus.

If it persuades new players to stay on rather than quit, because it gives them a wider range of things to do, that'll increase subs numbers too.

Virtually any change the devs make anywhere in the game will upset someone, but they have to take the wider view. If they end up paralysed for fear of losing a player here or player there if they annoy them, the game will never improve.

But if they had spent thier time developing new PvE content, that would have certainly kept PvEers and new players in the game longer, by giving them more to do, without alienating the existing PvP playerbase.

Return on effort; presumably they feel there's more potential draw from a revamped, (hopefully) popularaised PvP system than yet another co-op zone or the new, improved Boomtown.

Given the minority appeal of PvP they may also have decided it was do or die time; revamp and bring it into the mainstream or kill it off altogether to stop it draining dev resources to keep it synced with PvE stuff.

And as far as alienating the existing PvP playerbase, I'm not convinced it's frekking them all off - there just seem to be a few PvPers being particularly vociferous about it on the forums. (Although on reflection perhaps 2-3 people is the entire EU PvP playerbase... )

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I stated that Stalkers had become ignorable since the nerf to ET - ET was one of the few short-activating heavy damage mezzing attacks that can be activated from out of Hide. Leading off with Bonesmasher from Hide and immediately following up with ET was dangerous, as it could be used with impunity whilst autofollowing someone who was bunnyhopping.


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ET's animation time may have increased, but it still is just as easy to hit with it as it was before. The enemies have more time to react, but ET was horribly good in its own right, so it was no surprise it was nerfed.


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Assassin's strike, on the other hand, requires you to stay immobile for a second or two due to the interruptable component of the attack animation. Therefore you either have to know in advance where an enemy is going to be, or have to be very lucky/skilled when autofollowing someone in order that as soon as they become immobile, you can hit Build Up, Toggle off Autofollow and queue AS. And even then they won't die, since unless Procs in AS activate or they're already damaged, you'll need to land a follow up hit to bypass the one shot code.


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Just like the Railgun in Quake series or the Sniper Rifle in CS, AS does require a bit of finesse to be used effectively. Still, it's a big burst of damage which is very useful.
You don't necessarily have to 1-shot the player to kill him/her, as when teaming usually spikes are called and an AS can be followed with Fort/Corr/Dom attacks.
One great thing about AS's quite long animation time is that it gives time for other players to lock on your target.

It depends on the situation if you're better off opening with ET or TF or AS. Sometimes the enemy is debuffed or already damaged by grand amounts which means that AS is not always needed. This is especially true in RV or small arena team combat.


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So yes, currently if you're bunnyhopping properly and activating buffs like CM (which is 3.1 secs long, unlike its clone "Clarity" which is only 1.5 secs and far more spammable) at the crest of a a jump then you're very unlikely to be AS'ed, and even more unlikely to be actually killed by a Stalker.


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Does not work that way in practice in the case of CM. Although you can be more survivable by buffing at Super Jump peaks, many just don't. An Emp is always busy with buffing up if there are more than several people, you just won't have time to do any of that. People usually compromise by just touching the ground very slightly so that baddie stalkers just can't get an AS there.

And if they really fear an incoming AS so that they will only buff at great heights so that they will at no point touch the ground, the Emp is disrupted and so less buffing is done.

ASing is always possible in normal combat situations anyway, as being able to heal & buff in great amounts means that you will very likely be near the ground. To be protected, you'll have to jump on street lamps to avoid an AS

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And their skills, and the PvP system's unbalanced nature in general.
All of which brings us nicely back to my original point, which was that PvP is currently unfairly biased against melee combat, and against the overwhelmingly vast majority of possible powerset combinations.


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Melee has a disadvantage, I give you that. However, Stalkers are unlike other melee ATs. Stalkers can actually provide great burst damage reliably, which is important in today's PvP (it might change in i13 if there's more DPS required in killing targets)


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Put it this way: How often would you rather choose a Scrapper OR Stalker over a Blaster for PvP? Assuming that we're talking generally and not specific cases such as a TO'ed AR/Dev/Munitions versus a Purpled EM/Regen/Soul.

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This is very interesting, because redside has no Blasters or Scrappers. A Stalker's main selling point is burst damage, and the Stalker is redside's only AT along with Forts that can bring out unresistable damage (Psi is only resisted heroside by those who have Mind over Body or loldarks or PFF)

As I said earlier, AS is not the Stalker's only tool. A BU'd TF or ET still hurt a lot.

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And if you DO leave? Well, who's going to actually care, or even notice? Just one less self righteous elitist demanding the game be played to THEIR specifications, and bugger anyone else. Well, I'm sorry bud, but the current PvP population are seriously outnumbered by the PvEers who wouldn't mind giving it a go, if they could actually get IN to the zones without getting gangbanged by a bunch of elitists with tricked out builds. Now we're going to actually have a fighting chance.

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The thing is you DO have a chance with the current mechanics, you just need to put in the time and effort to learn the system and to earn your PvP build, we were all PvE'rs are selves before we all had to go through this exact procces, so hopefully you can understand some of the frustration displayed by the PvP community because unlike you (No disrespect here FFM) we have all put lots of time and effort into the PvP area of the game, learning how it works with current system and earning our PvP builds.

I can expect if the PvE system was changed in such a drastic way like this the boards would be flooded with simular posts about how upsetting it is (not saying it would neccesarily be you)

And dont get me wrong im all for change, i will learn the new system i will roll the next fotm and trick it out, but like i said a few pages back taking away the speed this game has now by adding base movement supression, will essentially take away what i personally find so fun about CoX PvP (and judging by other PvP'ers on the US boards and here, its what counts for them too.)

I cant help but feel (and i may be way off here) that they are essentially dumbing down the system to make it easier, because for me the speed in which you can move around the environment is what made it challenging to get that kill, it meant you could evade with a bit of preperation and the fast paced action is what made skill come into because your reaction time > the other players (just my opinion of course)

Now i will most definately try this new system out, but like alot of other current PvP'ers removing the ability to move around the maps like you do now i think will essentially be the end of 'hardcore' CoX PvP, they will eventually more than likely attract more randoms in zone PvP, who decide CoX PvP is now not so different from the mundane experience that is CoX PvE, but i can honestly say i dont see this bringing more players to a 4 year old MMO, all it will do is remove the current die hard PvP players who hold 2 accounts+ and have been playing for the 4 years (myself included)

(All this is based on the current PvP'ers reaction to the movement suppresion in US beta, who have reported it really slows the pace of the game down considerably)

Bring on open beta so we can all test it!

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The thing is you DO have a chance with the current mechanics, you just need to put in the time and effort to learn the system and to earn your PvP build, we were all PvE'rs are selves before we all had to go through this exact procces, so hopefully you can understand some of the frustration displayed by the PvP community because unlike you (No disrespect here FFM) we have all put lots of time and effort into the PvP area of the game, learning how it works with current system and earning our PvP builds.

I can expect if the PvE system was changed in such a drastic way like this the boards would be flooded with simular posts about how upsetting it is (not saying it would neccesarily be you)



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Oh I understand the frustration some of you guys are feeling. I'm just getting a bit peeved by all the toys hitting the floor at warp factor 12, when none of you have TRIED the changes! If it's [censored] AFTER you've tried them, feel free to foam at the mouth all you like! I'll even be there, with a mop and bucket.

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I cant help but feel (and i may be way off here) that they are essentially dumbing down the system to make it easier, because for me the speed in which you can move around the environment is what made it challenging to get that kill, it meant you could evade with a bit of preperation and the fast paced action is what made skill come into because your reaction time > the other players (just my opinion of course)


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But given the low numbers of people who do actually PvP, maybe it NEEDS to be dumbed down, so that it appeals to the less twitchy players?

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Now i will most definately try this new system out, but like alot of other current PvP'ers removing the ability to move around the maps like you do now i think will essentially be the end of 'hardcore' CoX PvP, they will eventually more than likely attract more randoms in zone PvP, who decide CoX PvP is now not so different from the mundane experience that is CoX PvE, but i can honestly say i dont see this bringing more players to a 4 year old MMO, all it will do is remove the current die hard PvP players who hold 2 accounts+ and have been playing for the 4 years (myself included)


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It's an unfortunate fact that player numbers are NOT increasing. Generally, they're tending to remain fairly static, with some hills and valleys. Consequently, new people aren't going in to the PvP zones so much. So what do they do to get those areas more active? Change them to increase their appeal for the vastly more populated PvE part of the game, that's how. Sure, it's unfortunately for the hardcore PvPers, and some may even leave in a huff; but the devs MUST put the overall playerbase first.

For me, as I've said many times... I don't PvP because I'm rubbish at it (I'm not), or because of the poor balance (PB's are a pain to kill), or even because of the gank squads squishing people before they've even gotten out of sight of their base. No, I don't PvP because of the tiny minority of hardcore PvPers who, generally, made the whole experience just... unpleasant. It's the trash talking, the bragging, the, to be blunt, arrogant asshattery, that puts me off. If this change annoys those minority idiots enough that they leave, GOOD!.

Of course, I'm not holding much hope for that. These people turn up everywhere where there's PvP. Still, at least these changes will encourage me to try some more arena matches, even if I stay out of the zonal stuff.

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Put it this way: How often would you rather choose a Scrapper OR Stalker over a Blaster for PvP? Assuming that we're talking generally and not specific cases such as a TO'ed AR/Dev/Munitions versus a Purpled EM/Regen/Soul.

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This is very interesting, because redside has no Blasters or Scrappers. A Stalker's main selling point is burst damage, and the Stalker is redside's only AT along with Forts that can bring out unresistable damage (Psi is only resisted heroside by those who have Mind over Body or loldarks or PFF)

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We seem to be getting needlessly sidetracked on the Stalker issue, so for clarity instead try substituting the word "Brute" or "Scranker". The point I'm getting at is that the game's current PvP mechanics work against the effectiveness of the vast majority of builds - and the melee versus ranged disparity is one of the most glaring examples of this imbalance.

Besides the AT-versus-AT imbalance, there is also side-versus-side imbalance to deal with... Redside is traditionally weaker than Blueside in PvP scenarios since they only have one "Buffer" AT and no real ranged spike damage. They tend to make use of Stalkers only because they have no access to Blasters, and because decent-damage Fortunas and Corruptors are few and far between.

When you have such disparity in a game, it needs addressed before said game will attract more than a very dedicated clique of people who are prepared to continually put up with and exploit that disparity.

Don't forget, come i13, redside are getting healers.

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Return on effort; presumably they feel there's more potential draw from a revamped, (hopefully) popularaised PvP system than yet another co-op zone or the new, improved Boomtown.

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This is the one that's got me puzzled. The sweeping changes here, the inordenate amount of time needed to create Shields ingame and the delay and publised man-hour "expense" of the Architect would seem, to an outside, to be a relatively poor return on effort. But that's from my PoV as a non-Tanking, non-PvPing gamer who'd like to see some midlevel co-op added to the game to further remove the artifical Heroes/Villains barrier which splits the playerbase.

That's all totally IMO (and offtopic) though.

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Put it this way: How often would you rather choose a Scrapper OR Stalker over a Blaster for PvP? Assuming that we're talking generally and not specific cases such as a TO'ed AR/Dev/Munitions versus a Purpled EM/Regen/Soul.

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This is very interesting, because redside has no Blasters or Scrappers. A Stalker's main selling point is burst damage, and the Stalker is redside's only AT along with Forts that can bring out unresistable damage (Psi is only resisted heroside by those who have Mind over Body or loldarks or PFF)

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We seem to be getting needlessly sidetracked on the Stalker issue, so for clarity instead try substituting the word "Brute" or "Scranker". The point I'm getting at is that the game's current PvP mechanics work against the effectiveness of the vast majority of builds - and the melee versus ranged disparity is one of the most glaring examples of this imbalance.

Besides the AT-versus-AT imbalance, there is also side-versus-side imbalance to deal with... Redside is traditionally weaker than Blueside in PvP scenarios since they only have one "Buffer" AT and no real ranged spike damage. They tend to make use of Stalkers only because they have no access to Blasters, and because decent-damage Fortunas and Corruptors are few and far between.

When you have such disparity in a game, it needs addressed before said game will attract more than a very dedicated clique of people who are prepared to continually put up with and exploit that disparity.

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I agree. It was no surprise that most pentad teams at X4 were either pure hero or with an oddcard villain. I'm eager to see the changes to APP/PPP and the final numbers on powers.

From the now released mechanics (like new mez changes and -range in Taunt) I can't say anything yet because I don't think we've got all the info we need to make conclusions on the gameplay. If -range and mez changes were to be implemented now in issue 12, it'd be a certain buff to melee. At the same time mezzes would affect easily the same people as well, which would be a 'nerf.'

People can speculate how this'll affect PvP, but we don't know the final numbers yet, or how certain powers will work or how many of them will be completely changed.

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Don't forget, come i13, redside are getting healers.

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They already had "healers", just not enough of them...

IIRC one of the biggest empathy-related whinges for villains was the lack of ally-grantable perception in Sirens Call, which the new set covers. Another was the lack of redside Healing and Recovery Auras, which the set doesn't cover, but it does get an AB clone...

I've had a Thermal Corr on the drawing board for a while now, lately it's changed to a Thugs/Pain MM....

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The thing is you DO have a chance with the current mechanics, you just need to put in the time and effort to learn the system and to earn your PvP build

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Trouble is some people don't like playing sets which are good or easy to play in pvp. When I was pvping a lot (zones only) and seeing the same people all the time I was always getting playfully slagged off for bringing "gimped" toons, and encouraged to a roll a nice FOTM instead.
Also, just one pvp toon in your account wont always be enough anyway, since people will sometimes switch to your nemesis and then your pretty much screwed. I'm pretty sure I don't want to spend years leveling toons for ALL seasons.

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Thugs/Pain MM....

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You too?
Seems everyone and their granny will be playing these when I13 hits.

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The thing is you DO have a chance with the current mechanics, you just need to put in the time and effort to learn the system and to earn your PvP build

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Trouble is some people don't like playing sets which are good or easy to play in pvp. When I was pvping a lot (zones only) and seeing the same people all the time I was always getting playfully slagged off for bringing "gimped" toons, and encouraged to a roll a nice FOTM instead.
Also, just one pvp toon in your account wont always be enough anyway, since people will sometimes switch to your nemesis and then your pretty much screwed. I'm pretty sure I don't want to spend years leveling toons for ALL seasons.

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I completely understand and im not trying to be confrontational, but that is YOUR choice not to do that, i suppose what im trying to get at is that everyone is on the same playing field when they start to play this game, the people that excell in different areas of the game do so because they put in the time and effort, be it rolling certain power sets earning the relevant IO's needed and creating multiple characters for that one scenario.

Im just trying to make people understand why some of the PvP'ers are reacting the way they do, as would many PvE'ers would if there area of expertease was suddenly drastically changed. which we know for a fact it will be based of the PvP list castle posted.

Indeed. Under the the old system people put in a lot of work to get to the top of the heap.

It's understandable that they would feel resentful if someone kicks over the heap and levels it off.