Castle's Post on PvP changes

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Thnx for the summary maelwys.

Personally I dont mind some of the other changes. The movement suppr sucks. Zonal pvp is going to be a mess. SS/SJ being a waste of slots and TP being king. Gank squads will rule as it will be impossible to escape. Stalkers will be even more unbeatable.
Even more base camping for heroes.
I truly hope it wont be half as bad as i am thinking but i just cant see it.
And the fact pvp zones arent getting any attention till post i13 doesnt help.



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But all of that will only happen if you PvPers DECIDE to do that. And that'll be your OWN fault.

Movement suppression does NOT mean you'll be immobilized. It means you'll be slowed to sprint speed for a few seconds IF the attack hits, and your attacker will ALSO be suppressed. How is that going to make it impossible to escape?

Sure, TP is probably going to be more prevalent, and it's going to make triform PB's a total cow to lock down, but it doesn't render the other movement powers useless.

Remove webnade from weapons mastery? sad tbh, almost the best choice for a scrapper epic for pvp.

Aren't they toning down AS damage anyway?

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And the fact pvp zones arent getting any attention till post i13 doesnt help.

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I hope MM's get something juicy.

FFM you really dont understand how fast paced PvP works do you? If you did, you would realise that supression, even for a second can mean death. Now I understand they are making everyone have better resistance in PvP and lowering damage so that may not be so true, but the issue is that being slowed to a snails pace, doesnt really seem fitting for a game like this. And my personal issue is not with the supression, but the amount of it! Coupled with all the other nurfs, it just seems to me that balance will shift from ranged attacks to melee!

One thing that hasn't been commented upon yet is that if these changes go live, the ONLY way to actually reliably toggle-drop someone will be to drain their blue bar. Combined with the "DPA normalisation" Damage buffs, perhaps this might provoke another rise of the Kin/Elec/Power sapper? :-)

Lets see... Tough is being rounded out to increase all damage types. And likewise Sets without Defence/Resistance of their own are being granted some. And Max Movement speed (including jump speed) is highly reduced which increases the effectiveness of slows... a Kin/Elec with Tough and an Epic armor would be quite tricky to kill, and would be able to keep the heat on a toon with Siphon Speed and Tesla Cage whilst sapping them with Transference and Short Circuit and halting Regen with Transfusion (it'll only actually inflict a healing debuff on you if you get healed, so just dive into melee when you need to).

Heck, Aim + Siphon Power plus the snipe in Elec might even be overpowered on its own now...

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Thnx for the summary maelwys.

Personally I dont mind some of the other changes. The movement suppr sucks. Zonal pvp is going to be a mess. SS/SJ being a waste of slots and TP being king. Gank squads will rule as it will be impossible to escape. Stalkers will be even more unbeatable.
Even more base camping for heroes.
I truly hope it wont be half as bad as i am thinking but i just cant see it.
And the fact pvp zones arent getting any attention till post i13 doesnt help.



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But all of that will only happen if you PvPers DECIDE to do that. And that'll be your OWN fault.

Movement suppression does NOT mean you'll be immobilized. It means you'll be slowed to sprint speed for a few seconds IF the attack hits, and your attacker will ALSO be suppressed. How is that going to make it impossible to escape?

Sure, TP is probably going to be more prevalent, and it's going to make triform PB's a total cow to lock down, but it doesn't render the other movement powers useless.

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Why is everyone saying TP will be prevelent? It surpresses as well, or at least is most likely to Source

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FFM you really dont understand how fast paced PvP works do you? If you did, you would realise that supression, even for a second can mean death. Now I understand they are making everyone have better resistance in PvP and lowering damage so that may not be so true, but the issue is that being slowed to a snails pace, doesnt really seem fitting for a game like this. And my personal issue is not with the supression, but the amount of it! Coupled with all the other nurfs, it just seems to me that balance will shift from ranged attacks to melee!

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Oh I do understand. Often things happen so fast that there just isn't TIME for much in the way of tactics. That's why I think these changes will be GOOD for PvP in the long run.

Sure, on paper they might not look so hot. But I say to you all, withhold judgment until you've actually TRIED the changes. And I'll be in there, trying them out too.

You see, though I'm not a PvPer, these changes DO intrigue me enough to see whether I might actually start to enjoy it now. Of course, that still depends on the number of childish morons trash talking in the zone and generally making the whole experience unpleasant for casuals.

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FFM you really dont understand how fast paced PvP works do you? If you did, you would realise that supression, even for a second can mean death. Now I understand they are making everyone have better resistance in PvP and lowering damage so that may not be so true, but the issue is that being slowed to a snails pace, doesnt really seem fitting for a game like this. And my personal issue is not with the supression, but the amount of it! Coupled with all the other nurfs, it just seems to me that balance will shift from ranged attacks to melee!

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Suppression will not mean instant death when both the attacker and the attacked are suppressed. It encourages them to stick around and duke it out rather than chase each other across half the map.

And yes, it's moving from ranged to melee. Every toon has attacks that work in melee range but far fewer have a decent number of ranged attacks. As it stands, melee toons have little or no effectiveness in PvP. So of course any change that promotes variation will need to move away from "ranged-only" viability.

To this end, they're increasing the survivability of toons so that the ones that normally rely on kiting/jousting or staying at range to stay alive (eg Blasters) can survive for longer in melee range.

In other words, it's moving away from a "Ranged Spike damage always wins" model to something more balanced, where a clash between two toons actually gives you enough time to trade blows before one of you dies.

...makes perfect sense to me...

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Suppression will not mean instant death when both the attacker and the attacked are suppressed. It encourages them to stick around and duke it out rather than chase each other across half the map.

And yes, it's moving from ranged to melee. Every toon has attacks that work in melee range but far fewer have a decent number of ranged attacks. As it stands, melee toons have little or no effectiveness in PvP. So of course any change that promotes variation will need to move away from "ranged-only" viability.

To this end, they're increasing the survivability of toons so that the ones that normally rely on kiting/jousting or staying at range to stay alive (eg Blasters) can survive for longer in melee range.

In other words, it's moving away from a "Ranged Spike damage always wins" model to something more balanced, where a clash between two toons actually gives you enough time to trade blows before one of you dies.

...makes perfect sense to me...

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Thats all well good and nice, except not all AT's were ever supposed to stand toe to toe and "duke it out".

I play a brute so this is all great for me, i still cant see the point of all this though if it just turns out to be a swing in the opposite direction, ie, melee for the win instead of ranged for the win.

I just hope it plays better than it looks.

Maelwys - pls explain why stalkers and most regen scrappers are very effective in pvp

and also if they are ranged or meele

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Sure, on paper they might not look so hot. But I say to you all, withhold judgment until you've actually TRIED the changes. And I'll be in there, trying them out too.

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I said this like 2 pages ago... still too soon to say if im agree or disagree with the changes...

BUT what ppl is saying is that the fun in PvP was in the speed, and in many other things, that devs are changing... Will it still be fun?? Still too early to say it, but Im affraid will not be so fun as before...

What bout the feeling of RUN + 2SECS STOPED + RUN AGAIN + STATUE 4 SECS + RUN?? That sounds like a bit discontinous fun.

my 2 cents..

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Why is everyone saying TP will be prevelent? It surpresses as well, or at least is most likely to Source


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They don't really know at the moment... But if they inflict suppression to tp, they'll just forbid pvp to stones, for who tp is the only solution to move (to attack or to run away) : they will juste become useless and immobile pieces of stone, condemned to endure ranged attacks without getting any chance to reply.

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What bout the feeling of RUN + 2SECS STOPED + RUN AGAIN + STATUE 4 SECS + RUN?? That sounds like a bit discontinous fun.


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You're NOT stopped, you're merely slowed. Only an immob or hold will actually stop you!

And in that situation, I would: Run, 2secs slowed, turn, smack attacker in gob, fight it out until one of you is dead, rez on the spot and splatter the SoB.

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Thats all well good and nice, except not all AT's were ever supposed to stand toe to toe and "duke it out".

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^ this


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Maelwys - pls explain why stalkers and most regen scrappers are very effective in pvp

and also if they are ranged or meele

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^ and this tbh

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Thats all well good and nice, except not all AT's were ever supposed to stand toe to toe and "duke it out".

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^ this

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They will be this November*







*Assuming November is when I13 will be released.

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Maelwys - pls explain why stalkers and most regen scrappers are very effective in pvp

and also if they are ranged or meele

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Since when?

Currently stalkers are only effective if their prey is stupid enough to stand still. They're entirely based around the Hide mechanic and Burst damage- since the Energy Transfer nerf, even EM Stalkers have virtually become ignorable if you have jump on Auto (/bind KEY ++up) and occasionally tap W/A/S/D. That's why many Stalkers have resorted to teaming up and using TP Foe.

Regen Scrappers are a joke. The only "effective" ones in PvP are Spines/ and that's due to the range. Scrappers get one set that has any decent form of range in it, and that's the one that's always taken. And for Good reason. When's the last time you saw a Broadsword scrapper that's able to catch a good ranged damage dealing kiter? Heaven forbid the kiter has any -regen or enough mez to break through Integration.

For the record, my first toon to hit level 50 was a Regen Scrapper. I also have a level 50 Spines Scrapper, and a level 50 EM/Regen Stalker (plus a myriad of other ATs including many "ranged" ones). All of which have seen some PvP action over the years; I actually even bothered to get the 400 rep badge on the Stalker.

The above paragraph is not intended to be a form of bragging, but to show I'm not unfamiliar with the sets. Regen is a rather weak set these days without any mez or ranged attacks to back it up. Personally I have a /Traps Mastermind that simply eats Regens, and it (the MM) is not even one of the better PvP builds.

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Thats all well good and nice, except not all AT's were ever supposed to stand toe to toe and "duke it out".


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Who said "toe-to-toe"? Did I say "Toe to toe"? Really? I don't think I did...

In PvE, this is certainly true. The new PvP is turning into a completely new ball game however. It's not quite a case of "toe-to-toe", but it certainly [u]IS[u] a case of "less running away and more fighting dammit".

Note: per Castle, with regards the numbers availabel to you during closed beta via character creation:

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Considering they've changed twice, maybe three times, since that build was made, no, they aren't accurate. Heck, there was new code written TODAY that changes how multiple attackers on a single target works.

Things are in a huge state of flux. Lot's of things may or may not change from what is on test now.

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Currently stalkers are only effective if their prey is stupid enough to stand still.


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Or if they're suppressed.
Or if they're being KBd (Power Pushhh!!!)
Or if they're in a long animation like CM.

I don't use TPFoe.

edit: obligatory first after red name

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Who said "toe-to-toe"? Did I say "Toe to toe"? Really? I don't think I did...

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Whats your definition of "duking it out" then? Because neither of you are going very far suppressed.

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Who said "toe-to-toe"? Did I say "Toe to toe"? Really? I don't think I did...

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Whats your definition of "duking it out" then? Because neither of you are going very far suppressed.

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Just because you're capped at Sprint Speed doesn't mean you're immobile. You can still use terrain to your advantage, and use powers that hamper your foe's movement.

"Sprint speed" &gt; "Sprint speed + Caltrops" or "Sprint Speed + Webnade". You really think a Blaster and a Brute are going to stand immobile next to each other and keep hitting attack buttons until one of them dies?

The idea is to stop ranged toons from automatically winning versus melee toons, not to produce a heavyweight boxing match. Had the devs wanted that, they could just apply an unresistable immobilise to attacked toons.

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"Sprint speed" &gt; "Sprint speed + Caltrops" or "Sprint Speed + Webnade". You really think a Blaster and a Brute are going to stand immobile next to each other and keep hitting attack buttons until one of them dies?


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Not at all, i think the brute will just bash the blaster.

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Currently stalkers are only effective if their prey is stupid enough to stand still.


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Or if they're suppressed.
Or if they're being KBd (Power Pushhh!!!)
Or if they're in a long animation like CM.

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All --&gt; Standing Still. Except for the Knockback one, and last I checked Stalkers can't get Power Push....

CMing whilst standing immobile on the ground? Stupid.
Suppressed and not Bunnyhopping? Stupid.

I swear, some people still act like they don't even expect there to be a stalker nearby...

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"Sprint speed" &gt; "Sprint speed + Caltrops" or "Sprint Speed + Webnade". You really think a Blaster and a Brute are going to stand immobile next to each other and keep hitting attack buttons until one of them dies?


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Not at all, i think the brute will just bash the blaster.

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Under the current PvP rules? Sure.

But under the proposed changes in issue 13, when the Brute's resistance/defence/damage numbers will be scaled down as they increase, they can't keep "Aid Self"ing damage away, the Blaster doesn't need to worry about toggle drops, can't get mezzed for ages and has a decent amount of Defence/Resistance?

Frankly it could go either way. Both builds would be viable, and would have a decent chance of winning if their opponent played poorly. So it'd come down to player skill, which is what the devs are aiming for.

Assuming of course that Phase Shift gets nerfed somehow, because that would get old very quickly.

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"Sprint speed" &gt; "Sprint speed + Caltrops" or "Sprint Speed + Webnade". You really think a Blaster and a Brute are going to stand immobile next to each other and keep hitting attack buttons until one of them dies?


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Not at all, i think the brute will just bash the blaster.

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Under the current PvP rules? Sure.

But under the proposed changes in issue 13, when the Brute's resistance/defence/damage numbers will be scaled down as they increase, they can't keep "Aid Self"ing damage away, the Blaster doesn't need to worry about toggle drops, can't get mezzed for ages and has a decent amount of Defence/Resistance?

Frankly it could go either way. Both builds would be viable, and would have a decent chance of winning if their opponent played poorly. So it'd come down to player skill, which is what the devs are aiming for.

Assuming of course that Phase Shift gets nerfed somehow, because that would get old very quickly.

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Heres the rub, i didnt make a brute to have it scaled down. I made it so it would be like a brute.

I dont really like the idea of my chars being genericed to be honest.

I think you and i might as well agree to disagree on this one

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Heres the rub, i didnt make a brute to have it scaled down. I made it so it would be like a brute.

I dont really like the idea of my chars being genericed to be honest.

I think you and i might as well agree to disagree on this one

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Fair enough.

Personally I don't see how a Brute will be THAT badly affected by the scaling, since the scaling is intended to de-value large levels of outside buffing. Just that by a combination of the Brute scaling and Blaster buffing the Blaster would be able to survive much longer in melee range of a Brute then it can currently.

In that case it'd be more of a Blaster buff than a Brute nerf; the Brute would also be able to actually get to punch the Blaster, which currently rarely happens with all the unsuppressed movement in PvP.

Can't see that being un-Brute-like, but it's far too early days to start arguing any numbers on this. I guess as someone who's primarily a PvE-er I'm just a little excited at the prospect of some PvP balance finally being introduced to the game, and it's making me a little more optimistic than usual...