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Good point also, though the argument on the US re: the newer players is one of mentality. That being, the difference between someone losing and thinking 'Hmm, I lost. I'll examine how and improve my playstyle/build/call in some friends to help'
...versus
"omg, haxx! Nerf him!"
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I see what you mean, although the PvP play as it stands may in itself incline things more towards the second of the two options. Top ATs and builds (as used by keen PvPers, specifically because they're the best toons to pick for PvP) are so much better (and better played) than the casual PvEer build that there's not much of an learning experience to be had.
Enter zone-bang-dead..."Eh, what?".
Repeat x10...leave zone.
Make things a bit more balanced so the newcomers last a bit longer and have time to start drawing "hmmmm, if I'd had a slightly quicker recovery from the mezz there..."-type conclusions, and you could have a new PvP fan.
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Catering to new PvPers is all well and good (especially with Dual Builds), but hacking off current PvPers (and I don't just mean the hardcore ones...I hardly ever PvP, have the 400 rep badge on my Corr, and these changes as they stand, are set to prevent me from entering a zone out of anything more than interest) isn't wise...
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True, although having read the US PvP forums in the past their normal state of posting seems to be somewhere in the "outraged", "aggrieved" and "insulting" range whatever the current topic. Given that the changes Castle posted are (1) subject to update based on feedback, and (2) not even in open beta yet, I'm inclined to wait until they've been tried on a reasonably populated zone before taking anything they say too seriously.
Re. your current Corr - is it looking irretrievably hopeless under PvP, or might it be moved back into the playable zone with a respec?
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Diminishing returns from buffs
Melee range increased
Travel power suppression triggered from damaging others, being damaged, healing (self or target), buffing, debuffing, placing an entity or from debuffs
Healing won't be as effective
Control duration normalized
Damage adjustments
Epic Armors, Tough all grant resistance to all damage types in PvP along with a global resistance buff
-75% Range in Taunt powers
Buff to MezResistance
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Cheers for the bullet points, was having trouble getting my head round the whole wall of text.
From the point of view of someone who really likes casual PvP, but eventually got put off by the need to go fully-pvp spec to be anything other than a speed-bump, i'm quite excited.
Diminishing returns applying to set bonuses plus the whole 'suppression of previously unsuppressed movement' thing are the two points that i have reservation about, but we'll have to see how extreme it turns out to be.
My big hope is that I'll actually get some decent aerial combat out of all this - the few times I actually got into a decent air battle are some of my best pvp experiences...
One thing is sure, it's a whole new ball-game
I hope the current Pvpers stick around, give it a shot, put their thinking caps on and come up with new strategies.
You guys will still rule, you'll just having to work harder is all And whilst it must be pretty galling to be back at square one I'm hoping you all rise to the challenge.
So, any initial thoughts on tactics, builds etc?
Oh, and one question - how will Break Frees work in NooPvP? A big old Mez resist, or will they be the only remaining actual mez protection?
Union 50s:
Crimson Cannon: NRG/NRG/Force
Tara Thorn: Archery/NRG/Elec
Damatria: BS/SD/Body
Defend the Earth from Aliens in my MA Arc: ID:57186
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My big hope is that I'll actually get some decent aerial combat out of all this - the few times I actually got into a decent air battle are some of my best pvp experiences...
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THIS!!!! My most favourite pvp battles have been when every1s been using fly/hover.
Close combat flying pvp battles are some of the funniest battles you could have imo, even with the supression i can still have good close combat flying matches with my friends. Kinda cant with randoms in zones since most pvpers take ss/sj, maybe hover/tp might be a usefull pvp technique now.
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
Here's an interesting question for all you hardcore PvPers.
Does Dark Mastery for scrappers, with the mez changes, become substantially better?
A Hold and an Immobilize in one set seems like with these changes would benefit a scrapper muchly.
So would the best APP for a DM/Regen scrapper be to go DM/Regen/Dark instead of Body/Weapons for FA (which something tells me will be getting a substantial nerf)?
I've tried dark Mastery in PvP before and the immobilize was useful since I could stack it with Midnight Grasp to pin a target down for a short length of time but Petrifying gaze was damned useless and it didn't seem to hold anyone.
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
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My big hope is that I'll actually get some decent aerial combat out of all this - the few times I actually got into a decent air battle are some of my best pvp experiences...
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THIS!!!! My most favourite pvp battles have been when every1s been using fly/hover.
Close combat flying pvp battles are some of the funniest battles you could have imo, even with the supression i can still have good close combat flying matches with my friends. Kinda cant with randoms in zones since most pvpers take ss/sj, maybe hover/tp might be a usefull pvp technique now.
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No chance. The ubiquitous stalkers with tp foe will pluck you out of the sky (your movement suppressed) then AS>Placate> kill you at their leisure. Or even better pop you next to a mob who will keep you suppressed. And you will only make that situation worse by attacking the mob or stalker.
Im sure blasters could use similar tactics.
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Here's an interesting question for all you hardcore PvPers.
Does Dark Mastery for scrappers, with the mez changes, become substantially better?
A Hold and an Immobilize in one set seems like with these changes would benefit a scrapper muchly.
So would the best APP for a DM/Regen scrapper be to go DM/Regen/Dark instead of Body/Weapons for FA (which something tells me will be getting a substantial nerf)?
I've tried dark Mastery in PvP before and the immobilize was useful since I could stack it with Midnight Grasp to pin a target down for a short length of time but Petrifying gaze was damned useless and it didn't seem to hold anyone.
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With the proposed movement suppression any attack will basically root or severely slow down your opponent. Just tp foe, click follow and start wailing on them.
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The ubiquitous stalkers with tp foe will pluck you out of the sky (your movement suppressed)
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Being teleported won't suppress the targets movement, only the caster. Says so on the US boards (by castle), buggered if I can be bothered looking for it though.
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
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The ubiquitous stalkers with tp foe will pluck you out of the sky (your movement suppressed)
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Being teleported won't suppress the targets movement, only the caster. Says so on the US boards (by castle), buggered if I can be bothered looking for it though.
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Think about it. Stalker will tp foe, hit you with an attack chain, em will mez you as well as suppressing movement. Then the placate and finish. Even tankers could go down like squishies with this change.
Stalkers are already lethal with tp foe tactics and the fact there is very few protections from it. These changes seem to make those tactics twice as annoying and deadly.
And please dont tell me about popping oranges or bringing a kin along. I thought the whole point of the pvp reboot is to prevent exactly this sort of scenario. And perma popping oranges is pretty tiresome as your time in zone is limited untill they run out then you have to zone to a contact.
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Catering to people who don't want to put the time and effort into their characters alienates the people who do, and especially the ones who already have.
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^ This say's it all tbh. People who don't want to put any effort into a PvP toon will encounter what Standoff said.
"Enter zone-bang-dead..."Eh, what?"."
Just as you would in PvE if you put no effort into it.
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You guys will still rule, you'll just having to work harder is all And whilst it must be pretty galling to be back at square one I'm hoping you all rise to the challenge.
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We already have worked hard. Fully pimped out our PvP toons and practised for many hours most nights.
Why should all that effort be taken away from us because other people can't be bothered to step up to the challenge?
CoH PvP SG = SuperUnion - Co-Leader - Union/Freedom
CoV PvP VG = Disruption - Co-Leader - Union/Freedom
Global = @Rent & @Rent.
Playgroup are all **** - Global Handle
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We already have worked hard. Fully pimped out our PvP toons and practised for many hours most nights.
Why should all that effort be taken away from us because other people can't be bothered to step up to the challenge?
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This is exactly it. tbh would any of you 4 year vets keep playing if all your toons got deleted? I'm already on the ropes for renewing subs as it is, if this goes through, combined with the fact that the rest of the lads are at uni, I'd probably stop and look for another mmo the next time I have time to kill, and start totally afresh. My time in this game has been great, but I'm not excited by thes changes at all, and as such it is almost as if pvp (or the pvp I enjoy anyway) is being deleted, detracting from the game and my reasons to resubscribe. I want the game to thrive because for reasons I cba to get in to CoX has given me something to do with my somewhat broken existance, but I'm too poor to pay subs for games I won't play.
Travel powers is what makes CoH pvp great, and though I'm not sure how heavy the other changes are (not read thread tbh), the fact that everyone except stalkers will be pretty much perma suppressed, you may as well just go into arena with travel boosts turned off (for those of you who haven't tried this, it is about as dull as playing Guild Wars in PvE).
Also the 'noob-friendly' aspect of making everything more sturdy is a bit broke. Those who rise to the top of the food chain will be the only ones killing anything (even they will be doing it slowly), and any new players that venture into zones may as well not have any powers in their trays as they won't be able to make a dent in anything.
I'm also not a fan of the seemingly unilateral pvp damage type. Different resistances to different damage types than other people is what make rpgs fun. If everything in pve was just lethal dmg and lethal resistance I'd get bored in about 20 mins.
I'm not sure how pvp is so 'epicly balanced' on other games. People throw that term around and don't actually know what it means, most likely. I wouldn't be surprised if people started saying that CS' PvP was un balanced and needed a re-work tbh. It's not like purples are unobtainable, you don't have to go to a special NCSoft event to obtain them. You just have to put some work in. Just like anything in life, the more you put in the more you take out. It'd be unfair if the people who put all their life's effort into pvp ended up no better off than the average trial account user. IOs were designed to encourage people to subscribe long term, so that they could 'pimp' their characters, so don't be surprised if you come across the odd 'pimped' character every now and again. I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that options are open to everyone. Anyone can have a Fire/Nrg and anyone can potentially purple it. It's up to you to put the work in though.
IMPORTANT BIT:
The main gap in PvP between 1st timers and vets is skill/experience. As X4 pointed out, all the free purples in the world (hooray for test anyone?), and the most experienced people ended up winning while the casuals and first timers ended up dropping out of the first two rounds, despite massing large numbers of those purpley things.
Also, I don't have a single purpled toon on live, and I get on fine. Experience and willingness to learn and improve are the only tools you need to thrive.
This dumbed and slowed down version of pseudo-pve seems less exciting than live commentary on a GCSE exam. lolwut
@Rooks
"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."
to be honest I'm, as already noted, a very casual PvPer and even I'm mildly stunned by the 'being attack' movement supressing, yes it's great for melee but then surely though mez resistance things solves that along with the -75% range debuff in taunt.
Don't all melee ATs have an APP/PPP mez option?
Scrappers have the Dark Mastery Path which, as mentioned, provides a hold an an immobilize, or Weapons Mastery for Caltrops to stop them getting away and (until the change) webnade. Almost all the tanker APPs (except Energy Mastery) give a hold and an immobilize.
All Brute PPPs contain an immobilize.
Despite it does get annoying when someone bunny hops away from me as does happen I actually liked the thrill of the chase.
Yes they're not great especially since they wont hold an enemy for very long (especially now since it seems that scrappers/brutes/tankers default to 2 seconds).
I actually enjoyed my fights with Globey, sure I didn't win but it was the fact that I got a 'good fight' from someone made me feel proud I'd atleast tried. That and the fact his Fortunata, while keeping me held, still couldn't defeat me with Instant healing running (just made me chuckle).
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
One thing... Does the healing changes mean that I can grief any healer-damager combo by running after the damager with my unslotted stormie and o2:ing them to keep the healing suppression up?
[b][color=blue]Coldest War /[color=red]/ Omega Patient[/b]
[url="http://www.the-cow.net/"][color=red]The CoW Network (Blog) /[/url][url="http://www.collegeofwar.com/"][color=blue]/ College of War[/url]
movement speed is supressed by healing for 4 seconds when receiving a friendly heal and if you spam the heals it will give them the heal resistance debuff meaning the healer-damage team slows to a crawl and the healers heals are next to useless.
so yeah...you can grief you own side in Sirens/BB/RV now...that's just opening a whole new can of worms...
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
That was a spot on post Rooks. Can't think of anything else to add to that tbh. And certainly nothing to disagree with it.
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This dumbed and slowed down version of pseudo-pve seems less exciting than live commentary on a GCSE exam. lolwut
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Sorry, just LOL. Spot on.
And yes Alvan, as Dr_Mechano says, you could spam o2 boost on any target to make them un-heal able. Though doing that to your own side is a little villainous 
CoH PvP SG = SuperUnion - Co-Leader - Union/Freedom
CoV PvP VG = Disruption - Co-Leader - Union/Freedom
Global = @Rent & @Rent.
Playgroup are all **** - Global Handle
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And yes Alvan, as Dr_Mechano says, you could spam o2 boost on any target to make them un-heal able. Though doing that to your own side is a little villainous
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I would never do such a thing, was of course talking purely in theory...
*goes to level his stormie*
[b][color=blue]Coldest War /[color=red]/ Omega Patient[/b]
[url="http://www.the-cow.net/"][color=red]The CoW Network (Blog) /[/url][url="http://www.collegeofwar.com/"][color=blue]/ College of War[/url]
So, from what I'm trying to understand from that post from Castle, these changes will be in effect in Arena PvP (and maybe Base Raids) but not Zonal PvP, untill a later issue?
nope they affect Arena, Base raids and Zonal all at the same time I believe, I think they've introduced a PvP 'flag' as it were which switches on whenever you go into an Arena/enemy base/zone since Castle a while ago made mention that 'yes the mobs in PvP zones would be harder because of the changes' or something to that effect.
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
The way I read Castle's rambling was that they wanted to revamp the zones, but they didn't have time for that yet, so they'll focus more on the power changes this time and do the content changes later.
[b][color=blue]Coldest War /[color=red]/ Omega Patient[/b]
[url="http://www.the-cow.net/"][color=red]The CoW Network (Blog) /[/url][url="http://www.collegeofwar.com/"][color=blue]/ College of War[/url]
i think the travel suppression is interesting. Fire,Mind/Ta fotm?
Also about tankers going down like squishes? How? Stun doesnt toggle drop anymore only suppress.
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Re. your current Corr - is it looking irretrievably hopeless under PvP, or might it be moved back into the playable zone with a respec?
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Ice/Cold, I enjoyed breaking over eager tanks in two. Best fight I ever had was leaping across the whole zone, fighting Dark_Blasphemy's Blaster. I lost in the end, sent him a /t telling him it was a great fight, we were both ---> 
<---
Under these new changes, I can no longer stack Freeze Ray and Soul Storm for my opener (as i'm unsure how stacking works, and it'll be 4s or under, instead of considerably more on squishies/detogg'ing those w/Mez protect), and my -recharge, -speed fall under a 'grief' gimmick of adding to the suppression changes. I'm sure i'd put the effort in to become good at the new system, but for what reason? TBH, i'm glad I got Disruptor when I did
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IMPORTANT BIT:
The main gap in PvP between 1st timers and vets is skill/experience. As X4 pointed out, all the free purples in the world (hooray for test anyone?), and the most experienced people ended up winning while the casuals and first timers ended up dropping out of the first two rounds, despite massing large numbers of those purpley things.
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As your team had the most experienced team players playing the event you were expected to win X4. Test server was to give the newcomers a better chance as well as giving a casual player a better chance. People dont always join to win. I knew my team wouldnt win but still played along.
Remember no one had to step up there game to play but if they wanted to they could with minimal effort.
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I read about a poll a while back, which showed that most people who don't do PvP don't do it because they can use the time for something else which actually nets them a reward.
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Rewards are subjective.
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Yer, i still dont understand why no reward system isnt even talked about, that would make LOADS off people come to the zones/arena IMO.
I very much doubt that any off these changes will make any difference.
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The reason why pvp reward system has been avoided like plaque is that unless its made really carefully, it will be trivially exploitable. Ever used alts?
ps. Those changes look at first glance like they arrived from Mars in a spaceshuttle.
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I read about a poll a while back, which showed that most people who don't do PvP don't do it because they can use the time for something else which actually nets them a reward.
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Rewards are subjective.
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People not doing something because they don't rate the rewards is objective.
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If your target is targeting you, then you're under the 2s travel suppression, which = no TP
Edit: Hush my mouth, seems TP, TP team, recall friend and TP foe are Unsuppressed...
that's dumb
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Yeh i gotta say that is incredible. I am really struggling to see how that introduces balance.
Well maybe stone tankers and brutes can join in now. Seeing as they will be moving around at the same speed as everyone else.