PvP - Could it BE more imbalanced?
By
Aggravator,
Posted on: 2005-12-09 22:26 in Everything about PvP
pvp isnt very unfair in my opinion, my mastermind can do almost nothing in PVP but thts wot i expect, he is built for PvE, my scrapper is a mix and i had fun in sirens with a stalker who kept trying to kill me, most our fights ended with one of us running, all i had to do was pop a yellow and it was easy to get him. PVP is about strategy, stalkers use their hide and AS,its a good strategy, standing around or attacking an enemy is not a good strategy, simple as that. I hope they release a new zone soon though where you cant use travel pwoers,it gets a bit boring when all the people i try and kill run away 
There are total trump cards against stalkers, TG for example, has whirlwind, which knocks all stalkers out of melee range. I've got increase density, which makes all my teammates immune to tp foe, for every strategy, there is a counter strategy, all of my characters use a tp foe/hold sort of strategy and it works ok.
Orbiting Death FTW! I need to slot more acc's in there to make it useful though in PvP.
HI just thought i would add my experience too with regard stalkers and PvP. I try to play a pvp zone each night and have had varying experience some like yesterday evening were just brilliant others more often than not like the opening poster experience.
More often than not i play a very squishy controller and have learnt to survive using some of the tricks laid out by other posters on this thread with regards to avioding stalkers and only sometimes they work for example to keep moving yup it works but the down side is 1, its mentally draining and after 5mins of constant movement u begining to get bored 2, as u are constantly moving u get to see no action, so i end up leaving the zone altogher. Other counter moves like insp for example also have faults.
As for A/S i have only been 1 hit killed once with all my encounters with stalkers which makes me question whether or not that A/S is actualy overpowered but that said a zone which is filled predominately with stalkers is just a complete nightmare. One will A/S u another will run in and hit u a second time if u have survived that and not disoriented still another will run in a hit again all this happening and u cant do a thing about it. The stalkers call their main power and one trick pony but i have to question that when sometimes u can go into a pvp zone and this one trick doesnt happen to u once or twice but well into double figures after that for me pvp becomes corupted as it is no longer pvp but p v stalker something my controller just doesnt have the power to deal with effectively.
In short stalkers seem to be victims of their own success as players like me tend to scout around a zone first if i see too many stalkers we just leave as theres no point in staying just to be a bit of meat in a slaughter yard.
Some good and valid points once the flaming had stopped 
Hi Shimmer
An alternative way of looking at the problem for you
PvP is a completely different game in almost all aspects because its not a drone driving the alt but another you
The main problem people seem to be experiencing is
1. An original alt built for pure PvE specification
2. One free respect to build your PvP alt
3. Reluctance to gimp your PvE alt for PvP play!
Stalkers are fine a one trick pony I have one at level 16 building it for PvP so when power choice comes I pick for PvP makes PvE a bit of a pain.
My Heros range from 50 down to mid 20s the only good PvP one I have if my Peicebringer respected him for PvP much better but now not so hot in PvE, my regen scrapper can hold his own with most of the rest are fodder for almost every other class.
This has proven disappointing I enjoy PvP immensely Battlefield 1942, BF2, Quake 4 all site proudly on my pc and I usually hold my own in most fights win some lose some but immensely enjoyable either way.
CoH/CoV sadly for me does not ring the bell for me, it seems you either have a good PvP alt or not and if you dont there are plenty that do, that will only to happily say high to you at the end of a sword, claws or gravity well
we are a very friendly bunch after all
Tainted Greeks advice as annoying/frustrating as you seem to think it is would be the way to go at the moment.
Without either free respecs on tap or very easy missions to gain a respect has for me left PvP on hold a bit.
I enjoy/dabble with it but not at the expense of my PvE experience after all thats where the ex lives and without that you cant do anything!
Your right about buying inspirations it would be nice if they were free in PvP zones but again some would abuse so that wont happen, it would also be nice to have a two power set alt so every time you level you can pick for both games one power for PvP one for PvE and have the correct set active depending on the zone your in
again not going to happen but its nice to dream.
So after a long meandering post I will end on a quote that seems so apt for where we are now as to be worth saying (slightly changed) again!
ALL ALTS ARE EQUAL BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS
Kind of says it all
See ya round
The point I was trying to express in a slightly humerous way is that if you say stalkers are too good in PvP then you must also nerf all the other builds/ATs that also are 'too good' in PvP. Apologies if humour isn't your thing.
Saying that one AT or specific build needs to be nerfed, or changed so that you can function without change is pointless, if there is no alternative and you have tried various strategies including changing your build and you are still no better for any chnages then sure call for a nerf. But to rant that your build is gimped or that someone elses is to powerful whilst not even considering any chnage is idiotic, something that someone of Shimmer's caliber is not normally know for.
There that better?
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The point I was trying to express in a slightly humerous way is that if you say stalkers are too good in PvP then you must also nerf all the other builds/ATs that also are 'too good' in PvP. Apologies if humour isn't your thing.
Saying that one AT or specific build needs to be nerfed, or changed so that you can function without change is pointless, if there is no alternative and you have tried various strategies including changing your build and you are still no better for any chnages then sure call for a nerf. But to rant that your build is gimped or that someone elses is to powerful whilst not even considering any chnage is idiotic, something that someone of Shimmer's caliber is not normally know for.
There that better?
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I agree,
My Grav/Rad controller was working just fine against stalkers in Sirens, I got tagged a few times but so what. All ATs can have killer PVP builds, complaining that your PVE build doesnt cut the mustard against PVPers is pointless whining.
Theres a PVPer joke in the pvp zones where we say we are petitioning the other players for using their powers, beleive it or not petitions have been sent from people in PVP zones becuase they dont like other people using their powers.
The one shot kill will go, I wont miss it really, I odnt think a secondary nerf will occur as it would render the AT useless and no one would use it.
And lastly I will say again how about people actually trying out the ATs they are complaining about, gives you a bit of perspective.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
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When they nerf stalkers to not be able to one shot (which I agree with) people will still complain. And if they then nerf them again, so that their damage is lower from AS, people will still moan. It is my guess that these same people will get AS striked no matter what. Which begs the question, what needs changing, AS or these people's tactics which mainly involves standing still with a 'Shutup I'm typing here' box above their head.
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It has to be said, most of the times I've been ASed (as you surely know yourself, given you've been on the giving end of some of them ) it's been because I've grounded myself somewhere unsafe for whatever reason. It's rare that I get ASed when I'm keeping myself moving and close to my team, and if an AS doesn't one-shot me, and I'm already on the move, I tend to get away. To me, that says ASes are mostly avoidable - and once that one-shot fix comes through, even the most squishy players will have the opportunity to get away fairly easily.
Frankly, as someone who doesn't play a Stalker, and mainly PvPs on the hero side of things, it'd be downright unfair to take anything more away from the AT.
This is one of the reasons I stopped playing, all this bitter complaining that was of course going to come from open pvp and it's alleged balance, generally from people to lazy to put any thought into how to combat others is just going to lead to yet more nerfs. In case you didn't get the memo the whiners always win in the end.
On a side note I'm not trying to claim CoH/CoV pvp is balanced or even anything more than a brief bit of mindless hack 'n' slash...it isn't. Personally I prefer the arena but that's just me.
What strikes me about Stalkers is that they are very specialised for PvP right out of the box. With just their basic abilities you have an advantage against PvE "toe dippers" who will be unlikely to have much +Perception. I think this leads many people to the conclusion that they are horribly overpowered. It also leads many Stalkers to think that they are overly powerful, which can have a disastorous results 
I'm certainly having little problems seeing and killing Stalkers with the PvP build I'm putting together. I think the main p[roblem is that people just aren't aware enough about what is needed to succeed in CoH PvP.
Oh I just LOVE to see a defender standing around on their own personally
I hate this perception that stalkers are "unstoppable", if you plan for us properly in PvP it's easy - if my target keeps moving or can see through 'hide', it's v.hard to be overly effective.
And anyways, IMO if you're standing around as a squishy in a PvP zone, you deserve to get one-shotted.
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What strikes me about Stalkers is that they are very specialised for PvP right out of the box. With just their basic abilities you have an advantage against PvE "toe dippers" who will be unlikely to have much +Perception. I think this leads many people to the conclusion that they are horribly overpowered. It also leads many Stalkers to think that they are overly powerful, which can have a disastorous results
I'm certainly having little problems seeing and killing Stalkers with the PvP build I'm putting together. I think the main p[roblem is that people just aren't aware enough about what is needed to succeed in CoH PvP.
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well this sums it perfectly for me regarding the stalkers and the heroes that face stalkers
I have no problem seeing stalkers, I use Tactics and IR Goggles if available. I can't kill them though. They run away. Please nerf the hell out of them so my Defender can kill them...
My team mates can't see them unless they are really close to me, but they can kill them in two or three hits. Especially Blasters and Scrappers. Please nerf them too..
Joking aside, I think things are fine. Stalkers only one shot me if they use build up before hand, or have alot of damage slotted. They generally have to use something on top of Hide to get close to me though. Like the stealth temp power from doing Patrols.
What really niggles at me is the fact that I'll have to pick something I don't really want or need as a Scrapper in order to counteract the Stalkers. Sure, it takes 2 of them to kill me (Dull pain FTW!) but once they've tried to AS me, I saw one of them continually using TP immediately after the AS and then immediately using Placate. (Which, it would appear isn't suppressed by an attack)
having to pick something 'anti-stalker' just for PvP when in PvE it would next to useless or practically pointless really annoys me! Tactics? yeah, great, waste 2 powers for a pve 5% acc buff. Great! Whirlwind? Um, no. What other options do i have? Practically none! 
it's also annoying that as a Kin def, I can ID and Speed boost everyone else to stop them being TP Foe'd, but I can do sod all about myself, so become enemy no. 1, and the first person in a group to be Tp'd.
What I'd like to see is, say, more bounty given for the non squishies. Make the non squishies a more rewarding target, then the squishies might not feel so aggrieved.
Also a current villain tactic is get a MM or other squishy to stand in plain view, with the stalker (or 2) waiting right beside them, then AS when some dumb hero (I did it once or twice!) comes in for a 'free kill'.
Defiant 50's
Many and varied!
@Miss Chief
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having to pick something 'anti-stalker' just for PvP when in PvE it would next to useless or practically pointless really annoys me!
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The same could be argued for certain Defender/Controller powers forcing my Scrapper to get ranged attacks.
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having to pick something 'anti-stalker' just for PvP when in PvE it would next to useless or practically pointless really annoys me!
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The same could be argued for certain Defender/Controller powers forcing my Scrapper to get ranged attacks.
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Yes, and you don't 'have' to get it at all - I'd certainly rather people didn't
You go there with a 7 men team and noone, i mean absolutely noone, can see a stalker ? You want some 'i_win_button" maybe ?
I first thought you were joking, but after reading the entire post i figured you were not.
What is the most annoying in this story is the vision of a dev reading your post and seeing that as a feedback, very disturbing really.All this reminds me of rogues in WOW when the game came out, people kept saying it was unfair fighting a rogue etc etc, but they never thought they might have do something wrong with their template.
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What is the most annoying in this story is the vision of a dev reading your post and seeing that as a feedback, very disturbing really.All this reminds me of rogues in WOW when the game came out, people kept saying it was unfair fighting a rogue etc etc, but they never thought they might have do something wrong with their template.
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That reminds me, we need a "Stalkers do it from behind" shirt! I think it was penny-arcade that made the "Rogues do it from behind" one.
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What is the most annoying in this story is the vision of a dev reading your post and seeing that as a feedback, very disturbing really.All this reminds me of rogues in WOW when the game came out, people kept saying it was unfair fighting a rogue etc etc, but they never thought they might have do something wrong with their template.
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That reminds me, we need a "Stalkers do it from behind" shirt! I think it was penny-arcade that made the "Rogues do it from behind" one.
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**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
With my regen scrapper i just stay in the water and keep an eye out for splashes in the water, then pull them towards a group of stealthed ill/storm controllers.
Then i let mr kent play with mr stalkers head
As long as it possible to change your powerset / tactics to restore the balance in 1 v 1 PVP I don't think the power should be nerfed.
E.g. If you add whirlwind to your powers it will give you some defence against stalkers (interrupts their assassin strike power), which is enough to make it balanced. As a defender whirlwind can be a useful PVE power if your team gets into trouble.
If you add teleport self it can help you get away from them quickly in the few seconds you have between their first attack (which has less chance of one shotting you with whirlwind) and the second (which if you're a squsihy will faceplant you).
If they start using team tactics against you (teleport foe to their team etc) team tactics can be used to even things up on that side (teleport friend, tp foe protection etc).
The way stalkers work at present is a lot of fun as it's fast paced whilst still able to have some balance, it would be a shame to see it nerfed.
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Also a current villain tactic is get a MM or other squishy to stand in plain view, with the stalker (or 2) waiting right beside them, then AS when some dumb hero (I did it once or twice!) comes in for a 'free kill'.
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Hardly just a villain tactic - I've used my Controller as Stalker bait with teammates waiting nearby. Hey, if you can't chase them down, bring them to you.
Stalkers... well. I play as a Ninja sword/nijitsu stalker in CoV. I've been in pvp zones many many times, and have only ever killed two heroes. One took a built up AS and another 10-15 attacks to do it (he was a scrapper IIRC). The other took a built up AS and 2-3 attacks (against a blaster). My health was flashing red when I finished both times. I have been spotted and quickly killed by even solo heroes many, many more times than I can recall. That doesnt make stalkers seem overpowered to me.
On the other hand, my blaster can happily three-shot a stalker using aim and build up, and I've never had any problems seeing them when they get too close even witout any PBAoE attacks.
As for people going for the Defenders/Controllers first when they attack... excuse me whilst I make the correct expression... here goes - Well DUH! Of course you attack the Defenders and Controllers first! That is the most basic and obvious tactical rule ever!
Basically if you are in a PvP zone alone as a defender and are unwilling to purchase some cheap little yellow inspirations then you may as well have a sign above your head with a big flashing arrow saying "Stingy and Tactially-inept Support Character Stupidly Attempting To Solo, Please Stab Repeatedly".
And if you're in a team and are still being repeatedly stalkered to death then
1) It wasn't me, and
2) Get a better team.
Okay... well two quicks things. Does it matter if stalkers are imbalanced? It just means it is a lot more tactical to kill one. You have to be vigilant and when one strikes you strike in the 30 seconds before stealth hits in. A team could easily handle it and I have been in many that have.
Secondly, only the good stalkers (such as Sun Stalker) are really invincible, you have to know how to use the powerset, just like any other. There are some amazing, controllers, masterminds, defenders... and the rest. It's just that stalkers get picked on because their power is completely new to CoX.
Don't get me wrong I hate fighting them and but I hate fighting players with hold and confusion moves more
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Does it matter if stalkers are imbalanced? It just means it is a lot more tactical to kill one. You have to be vigilant and when one strikes you strike in the 30 seconds before stealth hits in. A team could easily handle it and I have been in many that have.
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Woohoo common sense. Thank-you Dryad (cool name BTW)
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nly the good stalkers (such as Sun Stalker) are really invincible, you have to know how to use the powerset, just like any other. There are some amazing, controllers, masterminds, defenders... and the rest. It's just that stalkers get picked on because their power is completely new to CoX.
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Agreeed again. I dont know sunstalker but I know Gimpman, hackitoff and stalkobot (bless their sneaky lil hearts)Tehy are not totally immortla for crying out load just because you gotta think a lil more in PvP does not make it a bad thing, its kinda lazy to whinge that you cant PvP cuz of stalkers - learn to kill them its not that hard - AoE's DO work - their a menace to stalkers. Use inspirations thats why their there - tis obcious but then thread like this seem to get clogged by folks not thinking or listening to what is being said or explained.
Matron is thinking of giving up PvP due to abuse from some(but all btw) stalkers - ya see theres someone THEY cant handle. I find the demonising of stalkers total nonsense (had to think of a non-sensored word there)
Their new - they are doing thier job - learn to fight them - its NOT that hard to do!
Bah humbug!
/e shuffles off to find bottle of wine in SC
When they nerf stalkers to not be able to one shot (which I agree with) people will still complain. And if they then nerf them again, so that their damage is lower from AS, people will still moan. It is my guess that these same people will get AS striked no matter what. Which begs the question, what needs changing, AS or these people's tactics which mainly involves standing still with a 'Shutup I'm typing here' box above their head.
The Smoking Demon
Ash/Tar Corruptor
Union
@The Smoking Demon