PvP - Could it BE more imbalanced?
By
Aggravator,
Posted on: 2005-12-09 22:26 in Everything about PvP
Spad's point is a good one but the basic thrust of this topic is not correct for the simple reason that Stalkers are not the only AT that can 1-hit kill.
A well slotted blaster,AR for instance can with aim, build-up etc.,produce a 1-hit kill against which you can do nothing,as A.I 101 v2 can attest, and if stealthed and at range you cannot take any mitigating action.
So who's going to lead the the call for this to be nerfed?
Lol no-one it's a feature of the game,a strength to compensate for their weaknesses in other areas.
Simply the villain ATs are probably more designed towards PvP,however this is at the expense of variety,certain of the ATs will tend to be very similar simply because for them to function adequately there are certain powers you have to take or you will be gimped.
This does reduce the options for constructing your character in an RP type way.
It is also quite unusual for the hero shop to be empty there is often a very cool selection of temp powers available to heros and the IR goggles do work.
It is also very difficult to actually AS someone who knows what they're doing, the power is interuptible,very interuptible.As a fire tanker I simply do not understand how you could be 1-shotted, you'd surely have to have your toggles dropped 1st, which brings us back to Spad's point and why I now have energy transfer 6-slotted. 
One-shotting is going to be fixed. Which will do absolutely nothing to please parts of the player base, since the US boards already have people ranting about two-shotting and how -that- should be removed. Because Stalkers would, I imagine, be really fun to play if they couldn't do much damage to anyone. *sarcasm* Stalkers are built around a playstyle (or at least, that is the impression the Devs and the powers have given). If their powers get nerfed much, they will be fairly useless, from what people say about them. Does this not sound familiar? The forums for each archetype from CoH are full of people saying "We used to be able to do X but then it got nerfed because others didn't like it and now we are the gimped AT *sob*". All the CoH ATs. Do you actually -want- the CoV ATs to be like this too? Personally, I think that buffing other classes rather than nerfing one is a far superior option. Every CoH AT feels they've been nerfed badly and are the broken AT. It's sort of funny, in fact, looking at the forums and seeing people convinced that their AT is the most broken one and all the others are fine. If people hate nerfs so, it's somehow strange that they constantly call for them. And that people want game changes made because of PvP issues. Which is something even the Devs say they are opposed to.
And, as a Tank in Bloody Bay, I got held and killed a lot. If a hold got me, then that was it - I was dead. Might take a while, and a lot more holds and slows and sleeps, but I was dead all the same. Only inspirations would help me. No chance to react.. there I am, wandering around - a hold gets me and I'm dead. So should all holds be nerfed?
I do, as it happens, agree that it sucks to be instantly killed with no chance to do anything. But it's not just from Stalkers. If you're playing sub-par build you can easily get jumped and find yourself in a fight that you will not leave except horizontal (discounting using inspirations since they would counter Stalkers somewhat so should be discounted from this argument too). If someone gets a hold on you, gets you disoriented, gets a few criticals, debuffs you right, just zaps your sorry spandex... then if you're not up to scratch, that's you dead without a chance to react.
Being a Tank, my defences were all toggles, and my attacks are not exactly fast. Someone held me, then a friend came in close and started beating on me. By the time the hold wore off, I was toast. This wasn't griefing, this wasn't (to my mind) unfair. It sucked, to be sure, since I couldn't do anything to escape, but it seems like a valid tactic, and I'll be sure to carry break-frees.
I am not a big fan of PvP, and I don't imagine I'll do it much, but when I do - I'll accept that controls can control me, defenders can lay down nasty debuffs, stalkers can toast me without me noticing and so on. However, if any of those things miss, or get spotted then they'll have a big angry Cyborg laying some heavy punches into their jaw.
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This is not overall preparation these are common ways to deal with stalkers. Following some of them might actually help you.
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Most aren't possible to follow a lot of the time. You seem keen to ignore that fact.
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In all the time i PvP this hasnt happen to me.Simply because i PvP for the fun and i not try go solo, i am always prepared in the PvP zones i go and leaving the build outside i rarely stand still long enough to be a target. I mainly wait the stalkers to attack someone else for me to trap them
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Surely with none of the listed skills above, anyone with invis is going to destroy you. I would be way more worried about an invisible blaster than an invisible stalker if you don't have any of them.
Stalkers are a one trick pony, if you can see them, what else do they have? Please I am dying to know.
FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME STALKERS EVENTUALLY WILL BE NERFED SO A 1 SHOT KILL WILL NOT BE POSSIBLE.
Now baring this is mind and saying some people can be 1 shotted at the moment, well its going to change, I really coudln't care myself I have no intention to make a stalker and I don't find them overpowered in the slightest no matter what toon I am using in PVP.
Come on folks, there are plenty of ways out there to help survive a stalker, from insperations, temp powers, going invis yourself, fighting in the water so you can see a non flyer coming at you, drop an aoe if you think one is near, moving to make it harder for them, using a perception power etc etc. Even if your boosted perception isn't enough to see them at range, you can often spot them at the last minute as they are stood next to you ready to AS. Then it is purely down to your skill if you can interrupt them.
If you choose not to have a perception power why do you expect to be able to see them and completely nulify anything they can do? A stalker cannot stand toe to toe with a scrapper, or a blapper for that matter, or any of the other melee classes.
I can with my brute 2 shot a squishy if the situation is right, same with my blaster, scrapper etc etc. A stalker only has its hide and hit to be on par with any of them.
To innigo: I want to make my tank build have no toggles and still be really really tough and have a chance to tank an AV solo. I don't want to take the powers that would help me, but I still want to have a chance. How does that sound to you? Do you whinge this much about someone who has a really finely tuned PvE build and for the sake of argument has the same powersets as you but does everything you do better in PvE perhaps to the point they can take twice as many bosses at once, or something your toon isn't capable of?
To Shimmer: You can tank a GM with your defender, you think a stalker can do that? You have your strengths, a stalker has stealth and one big attack, and not much else. The stalker has probably got fed up with everyman and his dog with 1 perception power seeing right through hide, so in order to do anything in PvP has to take another stealth pool choice to be able to do anything.
Come on for everyone that complains about them and knowing that for the sake of argument when they get patched they will only be able to 2 shot you. Please tell me, what would stalkers do if everyone could easily see them?
"Spad's point is a good one but the basic thrust of this topic is not correct for the simple reason that Stalkers are not the only AT that can 1-hit kill.
A well slotted blaster,AR for instance can with aim, build-up etc.,produce a 1-hit kill against which you can do nothing,as A.I 101 v2 can attest, and if stealthed and at range you cannot take any mitigating action.
So who's going to lead the the call for this to be nerfed?"
Agreed. And if someone is damaged but you catch them on the run and deal the final blow - that was a one hit kill too of a sort. Or if you eat a whole load of reds and hit them, you could do enough damage....
Very agreed.
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And our TEAM didn't get ganked. Our defender and controllers were constantly oneshotted.
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As a controller I have noticed that the stalkers will always look for me on a team, when I was on a team of 2 tankers, 2 scrappers and me, the stalker would always bypass them and go straight for me every time 
seems they are most interested in the cheap kill.
Actually thats just tactics. Controllers and defenders always tend to be the first target.
Chances are if you leave one about you cannot kill the scrappers and tanks at all, as they will either be buffed or healed, you will be held or debuffed.
Its not a stalker thing, controllers and defenders are usually the first on the target list for anyone wanting to stand a chance in PvP. Don't take it personlly you are getting hit :P
Responding tosome random comments throughout this thread
If you dont want to make a dedicated PVP alt, dont. Just dont be suprised/upset when someone who has kills you again and again. It doesnt take any time to lvl characters.
I dont get what people want, they want to build their character for pve AND rule pvp? Its just not really going to happen, sure there will be some ATs that do both well but why start moan about the advantages of others powers? Its funny but most of the vitriol for Stalkers is coming from those who have not played them, why not give them a go before making blanket statements.
ALL stalkers are not unstobbable killing machines, in fact none of them are and all die at one point or another. A certain Blaster who I play with in Sirens and kill again and again (great sport) relishes when a 'newbie' stalker comes in as he can kill them very easily. Being a Stalker doesnt make you a good pvper being an experienced Stalker does in exactly the same way as ANY experienced AT does, be it grav troller, storm stroller, NRG blaster or empath.
I really do think that if people are going to complain about powersets in pvp then perhaps their mindset isnt right for pvp, you really should relax and take what comes and indulge in chat, its a lot more fun and you will learn the weaknesses of said ATs.
Its a lot more constructive to start a thread asking for advice on how to negate a perceived imbalance.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
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Hey, my level 24 Kin defender was hunting Stalkers in Bloody bay the other day and they couldn't do a thing about it.
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Yes, and the BS/Regen Scrapper who was owning everything in sight wasn't a key part of that victory 
I quite like fighting Stalkers, because most seem to descend into a confused haze when they realise that...
A: They can't oneshot me.
B: They're defence is meaningless to me.
C: Broadsword criticals hurt.
And hey, at the end of the day, they can kill you as much as they want, but if they do it too close to each kill, they will get nothing for it anyway 
That's why i don't mind getting killed repeatedly by stalkers.
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And hey, at the end of the day, they can kill you as much as they want, but if they do it too close to each kill, they will get nothing for it anyway That's why i don't mind getting killed repeatedly by stalkers.
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Heck, you want to talk about imbalance, my BS/Regen took on a Mastermind, two Corruptors, a Brute and a Stalker in Sirens Call and still managed to kill one of the Corruptors.
I'm imbalanced in PvP, I think I need a nerf 
I have no qualms about stalkers, even when im there alone. Then again, im a tank. Sometimes I just stand there for fun and let them come scratch my back. Not that I have much chance of taking them down either.
I have to admit i dont have spent that much time in PvP zones, mainly cause i consider PvP dull. Maybe I havent met the bad stalkers. I was really excited about open-zone PVP at first, but have been severely disappointed about it afterwards.
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I'm imbalanced in PvP, I think I need a nerf
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-POP-Ding-Ding-Ding-SPLAT-
Ask and thou shall receive
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I'm imbalanced in PvP, I think I need a nerf
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-POP-Ding-Ding-Ding-SPLAT-
Ask and thou shall receive
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My PvP character is /Regen, thats a nerf by default
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Try to think it round and get a pvp character if you really want to be good at PVP, if you dont and just want some fun, have fun and dont get upset when the people who dedicate their characters to it kill you.
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This is me, all my toons are PvE im happy with them. I not in a hurry to respec any for PvP as i do more PvE at the moment.
I do come into Sirens, usually for a few hours before i head to bed. I dont claime to be anygood at PvP but i go in and have some fun. Win or loose
I have started to try develop a PvP toon but shes a few levels away from getting into Bloody bay to see how she will fair. I dont know how effective she will be or what like as im still new to pvp. But from my previous posts about ideas fo pvp toons, im willing to have a bash
No doubt she will be mangled loads but i wont worry i jsut pick myself up again and try again
@Snow.
Defiant: Snow + many other alts
Arc ID 61069
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And our TEAM didn't get ganked. Our defender and controllers were constantly oneshotted.
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As a controller I have noticed that the stalkers will always look for me on a team, when I was on a team of 2 tankers, 2 scrappers and me, the stalker would always bypass them and go straight for me every time seems they are most interested in the cheap kill.
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As was said, this is tactics. If you're on your feet, they will soon be off theirs. If you don't want to be a priority target then either find away to be invisible or roll a scrapper or tank. I would always target heros controller>defender>blaster>scrappre>t ank. Unless the defender had proved he was a pain in the fundament already - in that case he might overtake the controller.
Haven't worked out what order to take villains don in yet. I would guess at corrupter, dominator, mastermind, brute with stalkers going down whenever they are visible if they hide successfully or not being a priority if they don't. But I would also want to try and put the brute on ice to prevent a fury build.... hmmm: I want a new thread to discuss it... To the PVP forums, Interlink, Away!
PvP could be more imbalanced. They could remove the one advantage to being a stalker and then no one would play them .
Yes stalkers target squishies. I do too with my controller/tanker/corruptor/brute. Because they are squishy.
My controller and tanker have no problems with stalkers in Sirens (apart from them carrying break frees and running away). Yes, they need to carry breakfrees when they meet my tanker. Confuses the [censored] out of people (not like he can tank any more, so I respecced him - nnot for PvP but more PvP friendly)
My tanker has actually stormed the beachhead in Sirens ... took about 10 villains to take him down but they did. Any stalker that can get through the ice slick and burn patch is welcome to try and take me out ... so they go find something easier. Like you. Or my controller (they wish).
PvP seems to be a massive game of 'paper,rock, scissors' and when I find a build I have no chance against (/regen scrappers are the bane of my existance) I either move on, run away or try to team with someone that can tear through the offending opponent.
I'm not particularly PvP built, nor am I that good at it. Both Hobojack and ProfC have torn me a new one when I've tried it...
I've also had good days in PvP (even numbers and people relog to rebalance the sides if one side gets too much of an advantage) and very bad days (massive imbalance in sides, or me as a hero and 7 stalkers in zone). I tend to leave on the bad days.
There are several ways to mitigate stalkers, some of which you have available to you. As to the comment 'they just fly away afterwards', if the rest of your team were on the ball, they'd get at least one hit in with a stun, or a hold, or a ... you see where I'm going with this? They have to come into melee range with you, so someone should be able to get some retaliation in (not much comfort to you I admit). The fact they didn't (from your description) makes it sound like you just didn't have your team all working together.
The fact that some of these people live in Sirens and have PvP geared builds does make it difficult, but I'm not a big fan of 'making everybody equal so nobody can lose and we all live in a fluffy happy place'. If someone is good at PvP, has an advantage over me due to powerset mismatches I expect them to use it ... I would. If they do it repeatedly I might just send them a /tell after a while saying 'yes, very good, aren't you bored yet?'. In fact, I did that last week and the energy blaster involved went and found fresh meat..
As others have said, it does sound a little like sour grapes. Give it another try on another day and you may have a better experience with it. Although I can almost guarantee stalkers will specifically target you now ... now they know how much you appreciate it
Oh and happy birthday Syn. Yes, people born in December rock.
P.S. I am not a stalker (no matter what the restraining order says), nor do I play one on tv...
Synaesthetix:if your mum wasn't already dead I would go kill her for bringing
you into the world
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If they actually fight back TELEPORT AWAY and try again later
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Yes I come into PvP zones to fight other players, but 9 times out of 10 they RUN when i start winning the encounter.(playing as my scrapper usually)
I have been in the zone fighting one on one , another villain joins in , i dont run so its 2 on 1, then another appears , 3 on 1. I DONT RUN, even if know i gonna get my head handed to me on a platter.
As by this time a stalker or 2 has decided to make me their pincushion. Stalkers love to hit and run as well but i expect that as they are squishy and not in their best interests to hang about after an AS
If i did manage to hit them when they attack me, as they very elusive. I end up hitting thin air 8 times out of 10. If only i could hit them then they be minced very easy i think.
But Villians LOVE TO RUN, what gets me is why do Brutes run !!
Brutes are the power house of Villians and they run every time i get near them. maybe if i logged my blaster on they might stand and fight hehe
I like to fight to the death. And im all for sporting battles not into this base camping, hospital t'ping, i happy to leap about see a villian and try beat them up.
I do generally look for diffrent villians and try not to fight the same opponent within a short period of time. If i have already encountered them. But sometimes you always seem to run into the same ones.
@Snow.
Defiant: Snow + many other alts
Arc ID 61069
I totally agree with Snow here When in a comic book do you see an encounter start, only for the villain to run away after tickling the hero? Wouldn't make very good reading would it?
FIGHT TO THE DEATH FOR THE WIN!
I am getting fed up of 'Stalkers are overpowered because they can one-shot squishies' posts. I'm dissapointed that Shimmer, who I repect as a forum poster, should start such a thread without actually bothering to read up on the subject first.
Stalkers will be nerfed sometime soon. Cryptic will make it so that PCs cannot be one-shotted. They don't think it's fair. As has been pointed out, this will eliminate the only advantage a Stalker actually has, but since said Stalker will probably be able to two-shot you instead, I'd imagine there will still be a load of complaints and Stalkers will get nerfed again.
For the record, Stalker hits are so low that a Stalker can probably one-shot another Stalker quite easily (depends on secondary). Stalkers are one-trick ponies, the hide and assassinate. Anything beyond that usually involves face planting. If you take that trick away from them, then Stalkers become melee Blasters (not Scrappers). Melee Blasters haven't got a huge life expectancy.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Hehehe replying to my own post
Actually just because this is aimed at the thread rather than a specific poster...
Right so we need to nerf Stalkers they are obviously overpowered in PvP. Now while we're at it can we nerf Controllers and Defenders, they're my own bugbear make my life a misery, make me miss more often, slow me down...
Oh and Blasters get rid of the toggle drops thats just a pain, even though I only have one, toggle I mean.
And Tanks way to much defense can't do enough damage to take one down. Nerf them please...
Hmm feel better for that.
/sarcasm
If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen.
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Posts for the sake of sarcasm rarely aid any discussion. A better solution to nerfing, since the vast majority of player play PvE and I see no need for PvP to affect their game any more than it already has is to have a better selection of temporary powers
For example - there's no SS equivalent in the selection, although there is jump, fly and teleport. A toon with SS can almost always get away from a toon with another travel power (assume the chasing toon has no holds or slow).
This imho should be addressed.
Similarly the stalkers AS could be reduced by a shield that prevented critical hits.
My point is you can't always count of getting on a team with the right skill set to defeat another set of opponents, so an easy way around that is to offer the appropriate skills as temporary powers. Obviously limits could be placed on the number of powers you could have running as well as on your AT, example, tanks couldn't get the critical hit shield, stalkers can't get an invisibility boost etc etc
No nerfing or sarcasm required.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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A stalker cannot stand toe to toe with a scrapper
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Can with mine, due to fact i cant hit them for some reason, I can see them but i hit like maybe 1 in 8 attempts, but if i do land a few sucessfull hits on them then yes they do either run away (most common) or i get them to faceplant
But if they do stand and fight then sometimes they hit me with placicate (whatever its called) then if they time it right AS , one dead Scrapper
@Snow.
Defiant: Snow + many other alts
Arc ID 61069
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If you take that trick away from them, then Stalkers become melee Blasters (not Scrappers). Melee Blasters haven't got a huge life expectancy.
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The difference being that melee Blasters have the potential to vastly outdamage an unhidden Stalker. Blappers are also surprisingly resilient.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
One Shotting will be fixed, Stalkers run like sissy girls from the power of a single respite after they hit you and baiting them with a decent teammate waiting in the wings is funny because they only have one trick and using it makes them a huge target.
A good stalker with a team that knows when to strike is great at unexpectedly taking out a valuable team member, usually a defender, but otherwise I'd say they're a nuisance that's fun to do a back and forth hunt with but are a clever distraction over from Dominators and Corruptors who I usualy target first.
On another note just putting my own wishes here to Syn.Happy Birthday Syn. Hope you have a great day and the best wishes for your birthday
Hehehe replying to my own post
Actually just because this is aimed at the thread rather than a specific poster...
Right so we need to nerf Stalkers they are obviously overpowered in PvP. Now while we're at it can we nerf Controllers and Defenders, they're my own bugbear make my life a misery, make me miss more often, slow me down...
Oh and Blasters get rid of the toggle drops thats just a pain, even though I only have one, toggle I mean.
And Tanks way to much defense can't do enough damage to take one down. Nerf them please...
Hmm feel better for that.
/sarcasm
If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen.