PvP - Could it BE more imbalanced?
By
Aggravator,
Posted on: 2005-12-09 22:26 in Everything about PvP
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Besides, the insps and IR goggles do work, and you can get them right now.
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I was in Siren's two hours before this post was sent. IR goggles WERE NOT available.
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Hes right, they are not currently available as I personally helped shift the control from Heroes to Villains
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IR googles are useless againt stalkers!!! I have been AS with my fancy IR googles on :/
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I disagree. Using IR goggles I can *see* a stalker - knowing he's in the vicinity is frankly all I'm asking, because then I have an idea of when to down some inspirations. If I can't detect him then I've got problems, you can't keeps insps running all the time, so the "buy some inspirations" advice is pretty useless.
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With my stalker IR goggles on their own are useless, I took a power pool in order to make this happen, as you say buy inspirations is not the bes thing to do in Sirens at least as you lose bounty leaving the zone.
But in terms of balance I would have to say that the pvp aspect of the game is very well balanced, people who moan about stalkers are generally those who have not played them, they are not easy to play or to get the shots that so many people complain about, if it doesnt come off I am massively vulnerable as my defence is totally nominal to say the least. To the 100s of scrappers who seem to think that a stalker is a scrapper with hide, the simple fact is that a stalker has at least 30% less hit points than you and a lot less defence.
If you are a defender or a controller you are a target, simply because you buff the other players and are (usually) easier to kill, plenty that you can do to try to eliminate this from happening and I know MANY players in Sirens from ALL ATs and there are always those who use what they have to the best of their ability and are night on indestructible, G-zeus is an empath yet is really quite hard to kill, Agent Matron is a controller who is rarely able to be beaten even with hoards of stalkers chasing her, Dr. Kara who was on tonight played very well and was hard to beat and many more. Storm controllers and others negate AS completely but I dont whinge about them, I think it through and do what i can to beat them. If you chose a non offensive AT and are not able to enjoy PVP to its fullest, build another character, its what I did and I ahve great fun in Sirens with great people, its a real delight playing with the regulars on both sides.
For those who think I am just an opportune stalker I often swap over to the heroes side to help with balance on my warshade or newly respec'd Grav troller, I keep moving to minimise AS but yeah, I got one shotted, oh well i get up come out running and chain hold/slow stalkers who hit others who are running away.
Simple fact is everyone elses powers seem great to everyone else but I would recommend to anyone to try them first, stalkers are hard to play properly in PVP as to maximise your character you ahve to compromise the build, storm controllers are not unbeatable and empaths are much more problematic for the villains than people realise, yeah they die but then they run out stocking people with heals and other buffs, so you die, you lose nothing but gain experience,
Try to think it round and get a pvp character if you really want to be good at PVP, if you dont and just want some fun, have fun and dont get upset when the people who dedicate their characters to it kill you.
And lastly for goodness sake, try to have fun, smile and please TURN ON HERO/VILLAIN CHAT you will find it a more enjoyable experience
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Its your fault
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best post ever star for you 
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beginners PvP 101
1)IR googles wont let you see a stalker with PvP build which means Hide+Stealth or the Hide+Stealth+Invis
2)Teaming is the key to effectively face stalkers.
3)Leadership power pool and the empathy set are the winners in PvP builds that will let you hunt effectively stalkers
4)Stay close to builds that pack interrupts to AS and make sure you cooperate
5)try and use the "Grasshoper" style when fighting . Its a mix of jumping around and activating powers while you in air. Is very confusing for the stalkers when you jump around and reduces the opportunity window to minimum
6)PBAoE spam might not always break hide but they give the miss sign signaling the stalker
7)Keep brawl in auto
8)Stalkers are easy targets once you get the hand of how to lure them and to trap them. trapping the stalkers is key to defeating them.
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And nobody thinks this is a bit of an over the top amount of preperation in order to take on ONE AT?
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Actually is one of the most useful advices you just need to learn when to use them.
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So, given you don't know where your enemy is, and don't know when he's going to strike, you haven't respecced for a PvP build and there's no one with the appropriate power sets in the zone, when IS the right time to use them?
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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Try to think it round and get a pvp character if you really want to be good at PVP, if you dont and just want some fun, have fun and dont get upset when the people who dedicate their characters to it kill you.
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And this is where it becomes unacceptable. We don't all have a toon we can dedicate to PvP. If you're telling me its that much of an advantage then the balance is off right from the start and that needs to be addressed.
But is a stalker's got 30% less HPs than a scrapper that's not particularly squishy. That's *maybe* twice through my attack chain @ 30th barring criticals, maybe twice and a bit, not sure.
But it boils down to this, it means that for my particular AT, assuming all the criteria can't be met for countering stalkers, two of them, if they time it right can bring me down before I can unsheath my sword, or, even fire off a heal.
No other AT in the game can match that
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(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
Personally I've given up on PVP. Apparantly you need either one of two sets of things:
1.
- Stealth
- Invisibility
- Possible phase shift for max effect
- Teleport
- Lots of defense powers/toggles to avoid PBAoE
That way you can be cheap like ... well, just about every hero I "met" in Siren's Call during my little stint there which I won't be repeating. Pop up behind people, and do whatever it is you do. If they actually fight back TELEPORT AWAY and try again later. Possibly if they're engaging NPCs or another hero or villain, easy targets YAY!
Or:
2.
- Tactics
- Lots of yellow inspirations
- Lots more trips for lots more yellow inspirations
- IR goggles
- A PBAoE
- Holds (and you better PRAY they hit)
That's if you're incapable to devote two of your four powerpool choices and lord knows how many powers just so you can compete in PVP. Of course, if you're an AT/powerset without a PBAoE that possibility is right out. Tough luck if you don't have one. Tough luck if you don't have a hold either or as above, they'll TP away. Of course you can get TP yourself and run away as soon as someone puts up a fight, but why run away when you're already going to be the person first getting hit anyhow?
So then you need tactics, slot your PBAoE with accuracy making it effectively useless for doing anything but spotting stealthers. Not to mention inspirations. Unfortunately the other guys are stacking stealth, invisibility, occasionally hide, and probably a whole BUNCH of defense powers on themselves (there's 6 or 7 in powerpools alone) and they can use defense inspirations too, so whatever increase you got from those yellows they can match, and they have more than just the one power helping their defense, unlike your accuracy.
They're invisible already so it's not a stretch for them to get phase shift so even if your insane accuracy and trips every 5 minute to some contact to buy yellows means you can see them you can't factually DO anything to them til they decloak next to you, and you hit them, and they TP away (remember those holds!).
Really, PVP at the moment looks rather shaky to me and really boring. I think I'll pass thanks, but to those of you with a million yellow inspires, PBAoEs, holds, teleport, stealth/invisibility/hide/phase shift and lots of defensive powers stacked, I'm sure you lot will enjoy dancing around eachother and TPing out the minute you encounter any opposition.
Personally I get more enjoyment out of blasting NPCs. And no, I'm not an anti-PVP carebear, I've PVPed and enjoyed it in several games, but nowhere was there such an enormous potential for stupid, boring, annoying and frustrating PVP experiences than this game.
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I did not say they could one-shot 'whoever they want' at no risk; however they can one-shot controllers and defenders at no risk. Unstealth. One-shot. Stealth.
And I was clear minded the entire time; and as I have already pointed out a multitude of times, while there are inspirations and temporary powers - we should not have to rely on that to make the game balanced.
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Uh...they can't one shot me with no risk...just have a good team as back up.
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And nobody thinks this is a bit of an over the top amount of preperation in order to take on ONE AT?
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This is not overall preparation these are common ways to deal with stalkers. Following some of them might actually help you.
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So, given you don't know where your enemy is, and don't know when he's going to strike, you haven't respecced for a PvP build and there's no one with the appropriate power sets in the zone, when IS the right time to use them?
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In all the time i PvP this hasnt happen to me.Simply because i PvP for the fun and i not try go solo, i am always prepared in the PvP zones i go and leaving the build outside i rarely stand still long enough to be a target. I mainly wait the stalkers to attack someone else for me to trap them
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And this is where it becomes unacceptable. We don't all have a toon we can dedicate to PvP.
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I not see the problem. Dedicating a toon to PvP means you want to be good at it and you are willing to go all PvP. Keeping it casual means you are there for the fun and you should expect the dedicated PvPers to have an advantage over you. This is not irrational. Otherwise we should only fight with brawl in the PvP zones. You are telling us here your problem is that you wanna kill a lot but you wanna do it casually? Not likely to happen because the people that spend a lot of time inside the PvP zones are dedicated to it and simply are on a different level. There is nothing wrong to that tbh.
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And I was clear minded the entire time;
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You weren't Clear Minded enough.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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And I was clear minded the entire time;
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You weren't Clear Minded enough.
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I've found one CM is usually enough (for Stalkers without pool powers at least), 2 stacked usually means we can see them far before they can AS us.
Oh, and happy birthday Syn
People born this month rock
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I've found one CM is usually enough (for Stalkers without pool powers at least), 2 stacked usually means we can see them far before they can AS us.
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Most of the Stalkers I come across in Union PvP live and breathe on Stealth/Invis/both/Grant Invis - if I want to see them on my completely perception-less Blapper, 2 CMs work a charm.
If there's no Empath about, nor any perception buffs, that doesn't stop me from PvPing - you work with the tools available to you at the time. Stalkers are a one-trick pony (two if you count Placate) - if you remove their trick, then it's all too easy to smack the pony. As things generally stand, I can two-shot them and they can two-shot me... but I don't need to be hidden to do it. Does that seem fair, Shimmer?
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Oh, and happy birthday Syn
People born this month rock
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It'd be even happier if I wasn't at work, but thanks.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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As things generally stand, I can two-shot them and they can two-shot me... but I don't need to be hidden to do it. Does that seem fair, Shimmer?
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That's a fair point...I can 2 shot any squishy (one-shot if I use Build Up and get a Critical - well pre-ED anyway...not so sure now), and I don't need to be hidden to do it.
Aye, happy birthday 
The Smoking Demon
Ash/Tar Corruptor
Union
@The Smoking Demon
Hahahahaha, i like all those tactics that fail to work..
KEEP RUNNING
Ye right, with sprint? they can still jump next to you and AS you and the attack will still hit, even if you are past the 50 yards. The only thing you can do to avoid this is with superjump. Fly is just horrible, super speed aswell.
Teleport is nice, but drains you out of endurance, forcing you to rest and they will still slap you.
IR GOGGLES FTW!!!!1
Checked the store, cant buy it. How the hell am i suppose to hit a stalker if i run out of insights in 1 minute and without the leadership pool ?
Got my tanker the other day, with a auto-attack AoE ( Blazing aura ) and it just keep missing the stalkers. maybe they got some extreme defense against auto-hit AoE's so no matter what interrupt power you have on, you will still die.
Stalker : TANKERS ARE HARD TO KILL!11!
Bahahaha, with all my fully upgraded shields on : One stalker AS's me then charges me and stuns. The second one comes in and AS me and im dead. 2x AS will instagib a tanker.
if 2 AS's can kill a fully shielded tanker, then how the hell are we ( Blasters, defenders, corrupters ) are suppose to avoid this [censored]?
EMP pulse detecting stalkers? lol!
AoE's auto-hitting stalkers? well, my fire tanker fails to do that, even with combustion a few times.
Leadership is nice, but many people wasted their last respec already to get along with the changes of ED. Most got tp foe for pvp, but not the worst pool called leadership to avoid some overpowered smurfs.
Most stalkers fail to see this (Can see some replying on this thread ) and like to one-hit people to get their ranks up to level 1 on the server. Some on the US even talk about the stalker been unbalanced. Lets not talk about the fact that AoE's fail to hit stalkers.
The problem you have now is once another respec hits, everyone is going to take leadership, and the stalkers are going to whine because they can be seen by almost anyone on the server.
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if 2 AS's can kill a fully shielded tanker, then how the hell are we ( Blasters, defenders, corrupters ) are suppose to avoid this [censored]?
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I thought you said that you got stunned?
But that just sounds like good tactics to me. You'd die just as easy if two good blasters were after you as well.
No,
But one energy hit will drop your shields, so another AS will kill you, no matter what you do.
Sure it takes some planning to get the second stalker hit right in time, but the only thing that makes me so angry is that my AoE's fail to work and i see 'miss! miss!' everytime and then get into the red a second later.
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AoE's auto-hitting stalkers?
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No-one said that AoEs/PBAoEs will auto-hit anything - they have a chance to miss as always, especially with reduced base To Hit in PvP zones. Non-target based AoEs, however, will knock a Stalker out of Hide, should they hit - hence their usefulness in Stalker-detection.
Try slotting some extra accuracies.
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but the only thing that makes me so angry is that my AoE's fail to work and i see 'miss! miss!' everytime
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This, btw, was your hint to slot accuracies.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
No, but i can interrupt
*edit *
thanks for the tip! will try that
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I finished Uni this morning; so I logged in to all my games to catch up. I went into Siren's Call, there were far more villains than heroes... Fair enough, City of Villains is only 5-6 weeks old; people still want to play villains.
I scraped a team together of 7 heroes; and in the past half hour I have been one-shotted around 10 times by stalkers whos only 'tactic' is to stealth so they can't be attacked - then one-shot me.
Does anyone else think this is HIDEOUSLY inbalanced?
Fair enough, I'm a defender; so a stalker should take of a fair proportion of my hit points - but the villains ENTIRE engagement in the fight were having stalkers use Assasin's Strike on me and the controller.
I don't care if I'm great at PvP; all I'm asking for is a FAIR fight. I can tank a GM - so why can an EVEN level villain be unable to be hit; then kill me in one shot?
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I haven't finished reading this thread, but I recall when starting my stalker and finally getting into Bloody Bay. I found alone controller and I couldn't resist. Okay, I can't recall if it was one or two shots that killed him. However, when I went around a corner he must have used the awaken and break free combo as a couple of minutes later he had me Held. Then Held me some more, then a bit more and I watched my Health drop away. Funniest thing I'd seen for ages.
My point, my build as it was could kill a controller with no defence but conversly he could hold me to death and I had no defence. If I'd had the right insp I could have been free and running, but that's true of using yellow insp and spotting stalkers.
I'd say that a much bigger issue than Stalker one-shotting (which they're addressing anyway) in PvP is that of blaster toggle-dropping - especially energy blaster toggle dropping.
One attack with an unresistable 100%/85%/75% chance to drop toggles and that imparts a disorient and does high damage is ludicrous. There has not been one single occasion where Spad has been hit by one and not lost all his toggles & been stunned, at which point, if I don't have any break free's left, I die, and if I do, then by the time I've got my toggles back up again, the blaster's attack has recharged and the cycle repeats.
And don't get me started on the Tanker/Scrapper mez protection nerfs.
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[...] Teleport is nice, but drains you out of endurance, forcing you to rest and they will still slap you. [...]
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Teleport isn't really that bad. I TP around a lot with my /DA Brute, using only the initial slot in TP (that means one endurance reduction enhancements - and then 3-slotted Stamina), and I rarely need to rest after porting around.
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This is not overall preparation these are common ways to deal with stalkers. Following some of them might actually help you.
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Most aren't possible to follow a lot of the time. You seem keen to ignore that fact.
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In all the time i PvP this hasnt happen to me.Simply because i PvP for the fun and i not try go solo, i am always prepared in the PvP zones i go and leaving the build outside i rarely stand still long enough to be a target. I mainly wait the stalkers to attack someone else for me to trap them
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Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you have hurricane running ALL the time? Can stalkers actually get near you? Last time I saw you in Siren's you barely moved 20feet in over 10 minutes.
Can I ask you to look at this from the point of view of someone who doesn't have AoEs, perception bonuses or holds, generally a finely tuned PvP build and is in Siren's when a team with the anti-stalker composition isn't available.
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I not see the problem. Dedicating a toon to PvP means you want to be good at it and you are willing to go all PvP. Keeping it casual means you are there for the fun and you should expect the dedicated PvPers to have an advantage over you. This is not irrational. Otherwise we should only fight with brawl in the PvP zones. You are telling us here your problem is that you wanna kill a lot but you wanna do it casually? Not likely to happen because the people that spend a lot of time inside the PvP zones are dedicated to it and simply are on a different level. There is nothing wrong to that tbh.
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I'm sorry, in another post you're saying "good" had nothing to do with game physics, now you're saying it is? How curious.
But Ill tell you what's wrong with it, most people aren't going to throw themselves headlong into PvP, they'll come to it gradually. If the PvP builds have too much of an advantage over PvE build new players are going to be discouraged and PvP will remain practiced by a tiny minority.
Consider this, there's three PvP zones, the mating point for 2 games, yet they're always quiet. I don't think I;ve seen more than 7 or 8 players in Siren's (that's not to suggest there aren't more on at other times), which is less players than you usually find in most of the CoH zones (one 1 or the 2 games) at any given time.
As a rough estimate I'd say you've got maybe between 2 to 5% of players across CoH/CoV PvPing at any given time. Not exactly what I'd call popular. You want it to stay that way? If it does, how much more PvP content are crptic going to invest their time in?
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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Personally I've given up on PVP. Apparantly you need either one of two sets of things:
1.
- Stealth
- Invisibility
- Possible phase shift for max effect
- Teleport
- Lots of defense powers/toggles to avoid PBAoE
That way you can be cheap like ... well, just about every hero I "met" in Siren's Call during my little stint there which I won't be repeating. Pop up behind people, and do whatever it is you do. If they actually fight back TELEPORT AWAY and try again later. Possibly if they're engaging NPCs or another hero or villain, easy targets YAY!
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Well I happily enjoy PvP, lets see how do I score from your list:
Stealth - Nope
Invisibility - Nope
Possible phase shift for max effect - Nope
Teleport - Nope
Lots of defense powers/toggles to avoid PBAoE - Nope
0/5 for me guess I suck at PvP then. 
But I don't, and while my build would be better if I could afford to slot my powers with extra ACC (still using an outdated PvE build) I do fine in PvP.
TGs advice is actually very good and you'd do well to listen to him (I hadn't thought of putting brawl on auto, but you can see the stalker just before they AS you, can't you?).
Running around doesn't make you immune to ASes, but it definitely makes it harder to line one up. A melee toon will ALWAYS have problems with a toon running about (or doing the "stalker dance" as my SG likes to call it).
Also, shimmer, choking cloud WILL interrupt AS if you have it running all the time. Even if you don't, as somebody already said, you'll see the "miss" icon which'll tell you that an invisible person is nearby. When you see that, it's time to pop some irradiate action to drop them out of hide. Once a stalker is out of hide, he's pretty much screwed.
The people I usually PvP with don't have any trouble with stalkers, but thats because we go in there as a team and we all know each others roles. As Nightbringer said, when we're on the hero side the villains lose. We've come in with 6 people and been outnumbered 15-6 and STILL pushed them back into their base.
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The problem you have is this. PvP was meant to be this huge new shiny thing for COH/COV. It was one of the main reasons I bought the second game. I like that kinda thing on WoW; having an enemy faction who you can engage with in combat and with insult throwing :P However, as has been stated before, if you go into PVP with certain builds, builds that would be perfectly reasonable if you're just playing the game normally, you can't expect to win. Surely, that's just not right?
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Not wanting to make assumptions and possibly you have played more WoW than me....
But [censored]? A Normal non-PvP build in WoW had no hope, when going into a pure PvP situation, even the much vaunted NE Rogue would come to a quick end going up against a squishy that knew what it was doing. Now sure I never got much beyond 30 but even I knew that a PvP build would own a PvE build. Hell thats why its called a PvP build, in fact thats why there are PvP builds in any game.
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I disagree. Using IR goggles I can *see* a stalker - knowing he's in the vicinity is frankly all I'm asking, because then I have an idea of when to down some inspirations. If I can't detect him then I've got problems, you can't keeps insps running all the time, so the "buy some inspirations" advice is pretty useless.
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ok beginners PvP 101
1)IR googles wont let you see a stalker with PvP build which means Hide+Stealth or the Hide+Stealth+Invis
2)Teaming is the key to effectively face stalkers.
3)Leadership power pool and the empathy set are the winners in PvP builds that will let you hunt effectively stalkers
4)Stay close to builds that pack interrupts to AS and make sure you cooperate
5)try and use the "Grasshoper" style when fighting . Its a mix of jumping around and activating powers while you in air. Is very confusing for the stalkers when you jump around and reduces the opportunity window to minimum
6)PBAoE spam might not always break hide but they give the miss sign signaling the stalker
7)Keep brawl in auto
8)Stalkers are easy targets once you get the hand of how to lure them and to trap them. trapping the stalkers is key to defeating them.
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"buy some inspirations" advice is pretty useless.
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Actually is one of the most useful advices you just need to learn when to use them.