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How many times do we see new Tankers (and new players) come up here and say something along the lines of "I'm trying a Tanker out and I'm always running out of endurance. Does it get any better?"
This has been an age old problem since the early days of beta. How many subscribing customers have to get frustrated and lose the love for the game before this issue is addressed.
Specifically the L1-20 portion of levelling. This applies to almost all ATs hero and villain side, but especially to Tankers who run dry *really* quickly.
Suggested Fixed: Do away with TOs and DOs and make SOs available at L1. This would alleviate much of the frustration and tedium that is the current mode of play in the L1-20 game (imo).
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Hmm, I'm not sure about that, SO's are simply too expensive to slot in the early levels, particularly when they wear out so fast. How about adding a similar mechanic to the "beginner's luck" accuracy bonus that they put in a few issues ago where you start with a large recovery bonus that slowly fades away as you reach level 20? That would address the problem you're referring to without making it completely a case of veterans with inf trivializing the low levels while the broke newbies still have the same problems.
I do agree that this should be addressed somehow, but I'm not sure SO's at 1 are the answer.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
If you exclude those that take more attacks than they have enhancement slots to give to those attacks, there aren't many people left to complain.
Endurance constraints do not need to be changed for people that want to progress through their own damage contribution without enhancing the character in a way that allows it.
With the first ten levels, there isn't even a relevant difference between tanker and scrapper damage numbers. AT differences are no more to blame than people adding additional attacks ontop of a character that is already having endurance problems.
edit: The way characters level up, gaining "bigger" attacks to make endurance worse as they level, often without any power choices that do anything to counter the effect, fights against the making of an endurance-efficient character intuitive or easy for new players. I think a graphical representation of "endurance cost due to attacking" in some screen, i.e. easy to understand information, would do more to alleviate this problem than any overhaul to enhancements. We still have posters in this forum that spam attacks without puting damage enhancements in them.
Well the price would have to be scaled to what TOs and DOs currently cost per level range, just like it is per level range with SOs (i.e. L30 SOs cost less then L40 SOs).
I'd even say keep them scaled entirely at TO prices until L25 in fact (where normal SO pricing takes over). The idea here is to alleviate one of the largest beefs in the game, while at the sametime allowing new players to enjoy their heroes at first impression rather than becoming frustrated with them (basic rule of sales ... first impression is everything).
Beginners luck wouldn't be bad either (or similar buff) but I'm not sure that would apply across all ATs (thinking of those with toggle buffs/debuffs).
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This has been an age old problem since the early days of beta. How many subscribing customers have to get frustrated and lose the love for the game before this issue is addressed.
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This is a tricky issue, because new players always have problems and may get frustrated, that's part of being new to a game. It's applies as much to card games with your friends as to MMOs.
Trial and error is part of the new player experience. If a new Tank player is slotting their defenses while trying to solo, well, that's not a game problem, they just made bad choices.
That said, I'm definitely for an improved new player experience. In another thread I suggested a revamped tutorial that can last more levels (should you choose to stay) and uses branching dialogue to give specific help with your Archetype. Part of this would be tips on soloing and teaming.
I would also support changes to the TO/DO/SO system not so much to help early levels, but for the sake of simplicity.
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How many times do we see new Tankers (and new players) come up here and say something along the lines of "I'm trying a Tanker out and I'm always running out of endurance. Does it get any better?"
This has been an age old problem since the early days of beta. How many subscribing customers have to get frustrated and lose the love for the game before this issue is addressed.
Specifically the L1-20 portion of levelling. This applies to almost all ATs hero and villain side, but especially to Tankers who run dry *really* quickly.
Suggested Fixed: Do away with TOs and DOs and make SOs available at L1. This would alleviate much of the frustration and tedium that is the current mode of play in the L1-20 game (imo).
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Or people can learn to manage their blue bar, carry blues, and use rest when needed.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
or team with kinetics defenders and get sb every 55 seconds starting from lvl 12.
or just use recov bonus like the rest of us smart people
i see a tank poppin blues ill kick you and do it myself. cant manage your build you certainly cant handle aggro and i dont need a taunt bot.
There aren't a lot of recovery bonuses available before level 20, Coldmed.
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Suggested Fixed: Do away with TOs and DOs and make SOs available at L1. This would alleviate much of the frustration and tedium that is the current mode of play in the L1-20 game (imo).
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I'm replying to this again as an excuse to float my idea for a streamlined Enhancement system. Part of it is much improved Enhancements at level 1 (though not quite SO level.) I'll keep it short and sweet (numbers are approximates):
Origin Enhancements: These are the standard power Enhancements, equal to the current SOs. They become available at level 15 and you can only slot your own origin.
Training Enhancements: These Enhancements represent basic power training and are only 75% as effective as Origin Enhancements. However, they are quite cheap and available right from level 1 to 50.
Invention Enhancements: These are crafted Enhancements which increase in effectiveness by level. They start at level 10 equal to Training Enhancements, at level 30 they're equal to Origin Enhancements, and they continue to increase in power from there.
Note: Training and Origin Enhancements expire and need to be "refreshed", Invention Enhancements do not.
This would mean a boost to power levels early on, and enemies could probably get a bit of a boost to compensate. However, remember that slots are still limited.
Feel free to poke holes in this idea. Should I post it in the Suggestions forum, or just forget it?
If not that, how about some sort of Stamina-equivalent for Beginner's Luck? You gain a significant recovery boost early on that gradually dissipates as you get to 20.
I have an idea for a different solution. Add in a new safeguard mission: Galaxy City . Reward: +recovery. Make the range 5-15.
I always thought it was amusing that we get the endurance increase bonus from the lvl 30-35 safeguard at a time when most folks should have their endurance issues figured out. There's my two cents worth. 
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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QR
Something similar for end recovery under level 20 like Beginner's Luck probably makes the most sense to me. Though I think that people should send in tips for the loading screen on this. Hopefully they'll get airtime, as I think it would be quite helpful... I'm always amazed at how many people don't realize they should slot their attacks with endurance reduction, heh.
Though I have a hard time really being annoyed about end recovery in this game when I remember playing a mage in WoW. Had to drink and maybe eat after every 1-3 fights. Against ONE opponent for each! *shudders* When I think of that, I realize how good we have it here, in some respects (not to mention travel time).
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Not really relegated to just new players. My play time is in the 'old fart' territory and my biggest barrier to making a new character is endurance management.
I had been leveling a WM/Inv Brute for a bit but I eventually broke down and decided, even though the final build was logistically sound, to go with the alternate WM/WP version simply because I hate running out of endurance that much.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
It's equally bizarre that at 41 when you try Conserve Power, it only helps slightly. You run out of End before the buff fades. So yes, the high endurance use of Tanks is overdone.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
SOs at level 1 wouldn't bring Stamina any faster.
I think that three SO slotted Stamina ought to simply be inherent, added to base recovery. The 20+ game appears to be balanced around the assumption that everyone will have taken Stamina at 20 anyways. This creates a perverse incentive to powerlevel and blow off the beginning content of the game.
I would probably continue to build like I do, aiming for early Stamina even on Willpower and Regen characters that also get a Stamina substitute. I dislike the endurance mechanic that much, and find characters whose endurance is a significant limiting factor unplayable. This is the main reason why I've never gotten a Kheldian to high level. I don't think I have any on the live servers.
Endurance is simply untrue to the source material. You don't see any comic book hero exhausted and needing to rest after taking on the equivalent of three minions. This is the ordinary lot of a level 18 tanker. This is the game's single greatest mechanical problem, IMO.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
I dont know if its untrue to the source material, Heraclea.
Its just that its hard to find comics about characters below level 20. Early New Mutants, for example, would show Sunspot and Cannonball both regularly running out of juice, having problems controlling their powers and basically needing all sorts of enhancements as they trained with their powers.
Justice League, FF, the X-Men and the Avengers dont do this because they're level 30+ at least.
Id disagree with removing Stamina and the endurance mechanism - I've currently got 4 out of 10 characters not using it and getting by OK. (PeaceBringer using set bonuses and forms, Fire/Rad duo using AM and Sonic/Mental Blaster using set bonuses and Drain Psyche to top up)
That said, I think Tankers (and maybe Defenders) could definitely do with a bit of an endurance discount on their powers. Doing low damage per second compared to Blasters and Scrappers is cool, and part of the deal when you choose these archetypes. Doing low damage per endurance is the problem here.
I know it drove me away from my first attempt at tanking.
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Its just that its hard to find comics about characters below level 20.
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That's probably because the D&D-ish level model isn't very faithful to the genre to begin with.
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I know it drove me away from my first attempt at tanking.
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For me, it has actually been a major obstacle on various attempts to play a SR scrapper. On top of having to worry about endurance, you also have to worry about health (not because you don't survive, but because health regenerates much slower than endurance). It led to a stop-and-go mode of play that was very frustrating.
The current setup essentially forces you into one of several senarios:
1 - You only use low level, cheap attacks all the way to L20
2 - You heavily slot for end redux (and virtually nothing else)
3 - You carry a lot of blues, plus doing one of the first 2 things in this list
Levels 1-10 aren't reallythat bad if you fight even conns. If you're trying to take on yellow+ you still miss too much and waste endurance. It's slow but can be done.
L10-20 is really where the problems come in. You're getting better attacks that cost much more and it's hard to not-use them, though they are still missing a lot. Also, you're starting to really need to run your toggles. This coupled with the fact that a lot of people hold off on Swift/Hurdel->Health to 16 and 18 for Stamina at 20, that makes L14-20 just torture.
I'm not in favor of everyone getting Stamina as an inherint. That reduces it's meaning to the character and I'm a "story" guy. I REALLY like the idea of a low-level safeguard that gives an endurance recovery boost, though.
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How many times do we see new Tankers (and new players) come up here and say something along the lines of "I'm trying a Tanker out and I'm always running out of endurance. Does it get any better?"
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This isn't limited to tankers. I see this from Brutes, Blasters, SoAs and most recently Dominators.
Sometimes people just get into spamming attacks and not formulating a strategy of how to cope with a staminaless, sometimes enhancementless, build.
Even without the AE, it really doesn't take that long to get a character to level 20. Between sewer teams and police band PuGs (or running with SG mates/in-game friends), it's pretty easy to hit 20 in just a couple of days' worth of sessions. I actually think that the current setup is fine; having endurance issues before Stam (or Quick Recovery, etc.) provides an incentive for players to find teams, which teaches them teamwork and group tactics...which are pretty good things to learn.
The argument to that is (watch as I build my straw man!) understandable; veteran players know all about teamwork and might not really feel like running the L1-20 content for the Nth time. However, veteran players should (hopefully) have acquired a group of in-game friends/SG mates with whom they can team so that the endurance issue is obviated. Or there's always the AE.
In short, it's fine the way it is, IMO.
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How many times do we see new Tankers (and new players) come up here and say something along the lines of "I'm trying a Tanker out and I'm always running out of endurance. Does it get any better?"
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This isn't limited to tankers. I see this from Brutes, Blasters, SoAs and most recently Dominators.
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Which is why my suggestion would effect every AT equally and at the discretion of the player (using the appropriate enhancements rather than trying to decide what's the best blanket fix).
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Sometimes people just get into spamming attacks and not formulating a strategy of how to cope with a staminaless, sometimes enhancementless, build.
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I've heard a couple of other people come up with this rationale and it is at best, self defeating. Let me explain why ...
CoH is a commercial enterprise in a (now) very competitive market. There are dozens of MMOs for players to choose from and soon to be multiple comic book themed MMOs as well. Just like in any other competitive market you must cater to your customers and potential customers (the customer is always right ... even when they're not) in an effort to provide a product/service that people want to use over your competitor's version.
So whether people should or shouldn't be intuitively rationing their blue bar is immaterial ... a good portion aren't and they are being frustrated (we've all seen these posts and in-game comments). Eventually that frustration turns into cancelled game accounts or free trials that are never realized as subscriptions.
In other words, frustrating the customer is costing CoH money. To what extent? I wouldn't know. But it doesn't take a marketing genius to see the same complaint come up time and again and imagine that its not ingratiating itself among those who complain .... those being your paying customers.
Heraclea: SO level enhancements would allow endRedux to actually mean something prior to L22. Slotting endRedux with TOs or SOs currently doesn't do anything appreciable, practically speaking.
While inherent Stamina would make the game more playable (especially at early levels) I sincerely doubt that would get done simply because of the amount of mechanics that would need to be changed (unless you're saying to keep the Fitness pool AND have inherent Stamina .... which is interesting but I think too radical for Posi to pull the trigger on that idea).
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Suggested Fixed: Do away with TOs and DOs and make SOs available at L1. This would alleviate much of the frustration and tedium that is the current mode of play in the L1-20 game (imo).
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm replying to this again as an excuse to float my idea for a streamlined Enhancement system. Part of it is much improved Enhancements at level 1 (though not quite SO level.) I'll keep it short and sweet (numbers are approximates):
Origin Enhancements: These are the standard power Enhancements, equal to the current SOs. They become available at level 15 and you can only slot your own origin.
Training Enhancements: These Enhancements represent basic power training and are only 75% as effective as Origin Enhancements. However, they are quite cheap and available right from level 1 to 50.
Invention Enhancements: These are crafted Enhancements which increase in effectiveness by level. They start at level 10 equal to Training Enhancements, at level 30 they're equal to Origin Enhancements, and they continue to increase in power from there.
Note: Training and Origin Enhancements expire and need to be "refreshed", Invention Enhancements do not.
This would mean a boost to power levels early on, and enemies could probably get a bit of a boost to compensate. However, remember that slots are still limited.
Feel free to poke holes in this idea. Should I post it in the Suggestions forum, or just forget it?
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It's not a bad idea but why 75% effective? Why not just go the whole way? Balance wise there is virtually no difference for the content we're talking about.
Also changing over to all SO's is logistically easier (just rewrite the values for current TOs and DOs) and also covers price scaling since it's already in place.
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How many times do we see new Tankers (and new players) come up here and say something along the lines of "I'm trying a Tanker out and I'm always running out of endurance. Does it get any better?"
[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't limited to tankers. I see this from Brutes, Blasters, SoAs and most recently Dominators.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is why my suggestion would effect every AT equally and at the discretion of the player (using the appropriate enhancements rather than trying to decide what's the best blanket fix).
[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes people just get into spamming attacks and not formulating a strategy of how to cope with a staminaless, sometimes enhancementless, build.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've heard a couple of other people come up with this rationale and it is at best, self defeating. Let me explain why ...
CoH is a commercial enterprise in a (now) very competitive market. There are dozens of MMOs for players to choose from and soon to be multiple comic book themed MMOs as well. Just like in any other competitive market you must cater to your customers and potential customers (the customer is always right ... even when they're not) in an effort to provide a product/service that people want to use over your competitor's version.
So whether people should or shouldn't be intuitively rationing their blue bar is immaterial ... a good portion aren't and they are being frustrated (we've all seen these posts and in-game comments). Eventually that frustration turns into cancelled game accounts or free trials that are never realized as subscriptions.
In other words, frustrating the customer is costing CoH money. To what extent? I wouldn't know. But it doesn't take a marketing genius to see the same complaint come up time and again and imagine that its not ingratiating itself among those who complain .... those being your paying customers.
Heraclea: SO level enhancements would allow endRedux to actually mean something prior to L22. Slotting endRedux with TOs or SOs currently doesn't do anything appreciable, practically speaking.
While inherent Stamina would make the game more playable (especially at early levels) I sincerely doubt that would get done simply because of the amount of mechanics that would need to be changed (unless you're saying to keep the Fitness pool AND have inherent Stamina .... which is interesting but I think too radical for Posi to pull the trigger on that idea).
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Kruunch gets it. 
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
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In other words, frustrating the customer is costing CoH money.
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Bingo.
This game is great fun: faster pace and less frustration than any other MMO I've tried --- once you're able to fix your character's endurance problem. Using Rest, or worse, waiting for Rest to recharge, is frustrating and no fun. And the endurance mechanic means one thing alone: the game is showing its worst face to the new player. A player whose first taste of the game involves lots of waiting for Rest to recharge may be a player who chooses not to renew. If I didn't know it wasn't all like that from 1 to 50, I'd probably quit also.
One slightly less drastic solution to the issue than making Stamina inherent might simply be to cut the recharge of Rest to thirty seconds, to make sure it was available when needed.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
How many times do we see new Tankers (and new players) come up here and say something along the lines of "I'm trying a Tanker out and I'm always running out of endurance. Does it get any better?"
This has been an age old problem since the early days of beta. How many subscribing customers have to get frustrated and lose the love for the game before this issue is addressed.
Specifically the L1-20 portion of levelling. This applies to almost all ATs hero and villain side, but especially to Tankers who run dry *really* quickly.
Suggested Fixed: Do away with TOs and DOs and make SOs available at L1. This would alleviate much of the frustration and tedium that is the current mode of play in the L1-20 game (imo).