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Yeah we all have worked with Devs , we all have developed games, and we all don't have a lick a proof...
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If you look on the inside of the cover of your original copy of Dark Age of Camelot, you will see my name in the credits:
Alex "Kruunch" Lippe
Also, most of the old timers on these boards know of my involvement with Geko (along with the other old time Tankers) in getting the original SS changes implemented.
As for WoW and EQ, you'll have to take my word for it.
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Its true. Kruunch is the patron saint of SS tankers. I have a velvet painting of him in my bedroom.
What....too much information?? 
Kidding aside, the current state of KO blow is due to the tireless efforts of several old timers including Krrunch
I think that, rather than revamp enhancements specifically because of endurance problems, simply altering the rate that characters bleed off endurance would be more helpful. Something like cutting recovery effects, excluding rest, in half, and cutting all endurance costs in half. Characters would then take twice as long to go completely dry with the same build and same playstyle without changing what a character can sustain. Endurance drain powers would need to be reduced as well, but that's the only problem I see.
Endurance limitations aren't bad, they're just on the wrong scale.
I wouldn't be opposed to that (or several of the other ideas presented here either) ... but again the change I'm proposing is simpler and addresses other issues then just the endurance one.
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Its true. Kruunch is the patron saint of SS tankers. I have a velvet painting of him in my bedroom.
What....too much information??
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I missed this reply from earlier:
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I'm replying to this again as an excuse to float my idea for a streamlined Enhancement system. Part of it is much improved Enhancements at level 1 (though not quite SO level.) I'll keep it short and sweet (numbers are approximates):
Origin Enhancements: These are the standard power Enhancements, equal to the current SOs. They become available at level 15 and you can only slot your own origin.
Training Enhancements: These Enhancements represent basic power training and are only 75% as effective as Origin Enhancements. However, they are quite cheap and available right from level 1 to 50.
Invention Enhancements: These are crafted Enhancements which increase in effectiveness by level. They start at level 10 equal to Training Enhancements, at level 30 they're equal to Origin Enhancements, and they continue to increase in power from there.
Note: Training and Origin Enhancements expire and need to be "refreshed", Invention Enhancements do not.
This would mean a boost to power levels early on, and enemies could probably get a bit of a boost to compensate. However, remember that slots are still limited.
Feel free to poke holes in this idea. Should I post it in the Suggestions forum, or just forget it?
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It's not a bad idea but why 75% effective? Why not just go the whole way? Balance wise there is virtually no difference for the content we're talking about.
Also changing over to all SO's is logistically easier (just rewrite the values for current TOs and DOs) and also covers price scaling since it's already in place.
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Training Enhancements would be less effective because they are essentially "discount enhancements". They're cheap enough that new players should have little trouble slotting them, possibly just what TOs cost now, but effective enough to keep up with the veteran players.
I don't think this idea is that work intensive. It improves the numbers on TOs (and low level IOs), removes DOs, and bumps SOs up to level 15.
Not the point of the topic, but I did'nt know you ran the Heraclea fan club. But to answer your question;
Caitif: A cowardly and despicable person. If you need some references; http://www.thefreedictionary.com/caitiff
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/caitiff
Since I'am neither cowardly nor despicable by definition, it was merely used as an attempt at berrating me. The classic "big words that mean bad things" angle. Its been used countless times. That should answer your original question, now can we discuss the topic or shall we digress even more?
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
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I missed this reply from earlier:
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I'm replying to this again as an excuse to float my idea for a streamlined Enhancement system. Part of it is much improved Enhancements at level 1 (though not quite SO level.) I'll keep it short and sweet (numbers are approximates):
Origin Enhancements: These are the standard power Enhancements, equal to the current SOs. They become available at level 15 and you can only slot your own origin.
Training Enhancements: These Enhancements represent basic power training and are only 75% as effective as Origin Enhancements. However, they are quite cheap and available right from level 1 to 50.
Invention Enhancements: These are crafted Enhancements which increase in effectiveness by level. They start at level 10 equal to Training Enhancements, at level 30 they're equal to Origin Enhancements, and they continue to increase in power from there.
Note: Training and Origin Enhancements expire and need to be "refreshed", Invention Enhancements do not.
This would mean a boost to power levels early on, and enemies could probably get a bit of a boost to compensate. However, remember that slots are still limited.
Feel free to poke holes in this idea. Should I post it in the Suggestions forum, or just forget it?
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It's not a bad idea but why 75% effective? Why not just go the whole way? Balance wise there is virtually no difference for the content we're talking about.
Also changing over to all SO's is logistically easier (just rewrite the values for current TOs and DOs) and also covers price scaling since it's already in place.
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Training Enhancements would be less effective because they are essentially "discount enhancements". They're cheap enough that new players should have little trouble slotting them, possibly just what TOs cost now, but effective enough to keep up with the veteran players.
I don't think this idea is that work intensive. It improves the numbers on TOs (and low level IOs), removes DOs, and bumps SOs up to level 15.
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Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to this idea and is the closest one to the one I proposed (hence the one I like the most other then mine 
).
And you're right, it's not that much more work then what I'm proposing (barring any logistical loops I'm not privvy to of course).
And yes I would post this in the suggestions forum ... but I *really* think if we truly wanted a shot at getting a change made, that we should all (us Tankers) come to a consensus on the exact change we want and all post together.
Voices raised in unison tend to be heard more.
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the change I'm proposing is simpler and addresses other issues then just the endurance one.
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I don't think your solution, which applies to damage, recharge, healing, and all the debuffs is simpler (or simple at all) unless you're writing off all effects of those changes outside of endurance management. This would, for example, easily give any blaster with half a wit 50% more damage in the respective levels before enhancements. While I wouldn't complain, it'd also make make defense and resistance buffs much more effective at lower levels, when I'm led to believe their schedule for enhancements (20% instead of 33% for a SO) is to reduce the difference between base low-level values and higher-level enhanced values, which this would directly affect for all those who utilize the new lower level SOs.
Then, the common person that doesn't know how to handle enhancments and power choices pre-stamina, the type of person that is used as "proof" that such an endurance problem exists, would still have endurance problems because they don't understand what they're doing.
It would address the "endurance issue" in favor of those who need it the least.
edit: and that is to say nothing of the implicated effects on IOs, which would either be even more worthless at these levels, or possibly level-50 strength were enhancements to lose their scaling effect as they increase in level.
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Then, the common person that doesn't know how to handle enhancments and power choices pre-stamina, the type of person that is used as "proof" that such an endurance problem exists, would still have endurance problems because they don't understand what they're doing.
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Yes, it is not obvious to new players that slotting your damage powers for damage is not optimal.
And unless they read the forums or guides or are instructed by others as to how to build, nothing tells these players in-game that Stamina is even required, that they will be expected to keep up with older players who have it while teamed, and that the rest of the game has been designed on them taking Stamina as soon as it is available. I don't know how obvious it can be that there's something generally wrong with Endurance as it works in this game.
Endurance recovery needs to be increased across the board, and endurance costs decreased across the board, so that the pace of play is as fast and exciting at level 18 as it is at 50. Until that can be done, decreasing the recharge of Rest to about thirty seconds strikes me as the most conservative solution that benefits all ATs equally without requiring changes in any other mechanic.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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decreasing the recharge of Rest to about thirty seconds
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If any character is put into the position that they need to use rest in 30 seconds because of endurance, even with rest recharging that fast, I don't see using rest that often as fast-paced enjoyable play.
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the change I'm proposing is simpler and addresses other issues then just the endurance one.
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I don't think your solution, which applies to damage, recharge, healing, and all the debuffs is simpler (or simple at all) unless you're writing off all effects of those changes outside of endurance management. This would, for example, easily give any blaster with half a wit 50% more damage in the respective levels before enhancements. While I wouldn't complain, it'd also make make defense and resistance buffs much more effective at lower levels, when I'm led to believe their schedule for enhancements (20% instead of 33% for a SO) is to reduce the difference between base low-level values and higher-level enhanced values, which this would directly affect for all those who utilize the new lower level SOs.
Then, the common person that doesn't know how to handle enhancments and power choices pre-stamina, the type of person that is used as "proof" that such an endurance problem exists, would still have endurance problems because they don't understand what they're doing.
It would address the "endurance issue" in favor of those who need it the least.
edit: and that is to say nothing of the implicated effects on IOs, which would either be even more worthless at these levels, or possibly level-50 strength were enhancements to lose their scaling effect as they increase in level.
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20% vs 33%? Are you debating the difference between A and B schedule enhancements? If so, I'm not proposing that these change.
If you're saying that adding SOs to the L1-20 game would unbalance that portion of the game, you could possibly be correct (I don't know what (if any) scaling is done for mobs in this level range). The solution to this would be to buff mob HPs slightly in the L1-20 range to make these levels more transparent to the post 20 game (if warranted).
Here's how I see the evolution of endurance management in this game.
Even in Beta, many saw the significance of Stamina. The first few issues had a fairly wide gap between character performance which was largely (but not exclusively) tied to whether or a person decided to take the Fitness pool or not. The insane difficulty of the Respec trials when they first released (your experiences may very, but failing 23 Respec Trials in the first week they came out convinced me to quit the game for almost two years - they were clearly built for players who were not gimped during that period) only furthered the divide until they were fixed.
It came to the point where Stamina was an unofficial standard for builds of competitive worth (exempting obvious sets that had their own endurance management tools). That technically hasn't changed. The dawn of Invention Origin Enhancements has aided in resolving endurance problems as well. The irony is that both of these management tools are considered "outside the balancing box" - they are extras that archetypes and power sets are presumably designed to operate in absence of. Furthermore, they are only truly available after you reach the mid-point of your character's leveling career (with rare exceptions to particular IOs, which have only minute bonuses at that level regardless). The only real power that is readily available for Tankers in general which could be considered "in the balancing box" is Conserve Power from the Energy Mastery set - and it is not available until the late 40s, and only to those who take that set.
As for the Rest power - the original version of this game was clearly designed to have players engage in regular downtime. Rest has been hypothetically driven into complete obsolescence - and I for one am thankful.
When all is said and done, history shows that the game has undergone power creep and numerous design changes - it was inevitable and it has been (with the exception of debatable changes such as Power Proliferation and I13 PvP) beneficial for the game and its community. That said, I think it is a safe bet to assume that old assumptions about choke-holding default endurance management capabilities (and endurance of all archetypes in general) in some kind of balancing tool mentality is a thoroughly outdated concept. Willpower proved that point quite well.
The fact that Tankers are the most endurance inefficient archetype in the game speaks volumes about this age-old gameplay fossil.
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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If any character is put into the position that they need to use rest in 30 seconds because of endurance, even with rest recharging that fast, I don't see using rest that often as fast-paced enjoyable play.
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For the pre-Stamina levels in question, rest is often needed after every spawn. If you try to take down a white lieutenant and minion standard solo combination, a tanker will surely need to rest if the lieutenant of that combo is a Tsoo Sorcerer. The same goes for a 3 minion spawn of CoT spectres. Leaving aside whether your hit points will carry you through such a fight, the end game of any such single spawn will consist of waiting for enough endurance to fire off an attack and hoping it hits; and you will need to rest when it is over.
Since a typical mission may contain dozens of similar combats, you will too often be faced with the situation where you will be waiting, not for Rest to recharge you, but for Rest to recharge.
Shortening the recharge time for Rest is probably a stopgap --- the entire role of endurance needs to be re-examined, and the Fitness pool ought to be truly optional IMO. But as far as I can see it does minimal damage to the actual combat mechanics, and will not change anything that is now working as intended.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Shortening the recharge time for Rest is probably a stopgap --- the entire role of endurance needs to be re-examined, and the Fitness pool ought to be truly optional IMO. But as far as I can see it does minimal damage to the actual combat mechanics, and will not change anything that is now working as intended.
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This is true ... but I don't think a faster Rest would make L1-20 more fun to play (only a smidge less tedious).
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For the pre-Stamina levels in question, rest is often needed after every spawn.
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I generally only see this when new players forget to turn off Sprint.
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If you try to take down a white lieutenant and minion standard solo combination, a tanker will surely need to rest if the lieutenant of that combo is a Tsoo Sorcerer. The same goes for a 3 minion spawn of CoT spectres. Leaving aside whether your hit points will carry you through such a fight, the end game of any such single spawn will consist of waiting for enough endurance to fire off an attack and hoping it hits; and you will need to rest when it is over.
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This why my usual advice for early levels is "Accuracy, Accuracy, Accuracy!"
What I think may be a problem is that new players don't realize how weak those early Enhancements are. While slotting a mix of Enhancements like Accuracy, Damage and Endurance might seem like a good idea, they're barely effecting the power. That's why I'm all for more effective Enhancements early on.
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Not the point of the topic, but I did'nt know you ran the Heraclea fan club. But to answer your question;
Caitif: A cowardly and despicable person. If you need some references; http://www.thefreedictionary.com/caitiff
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/caitiff
Since I'am neither cowardly nor despicable by definition, it was merely used as an attempt at berrating me. The classic "big words that mean bad things" angle. Its been used countless times. That should answer your original question, now can we discuss the topic or shall we digress even more?
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Sorry Lacrymosa, I wasn't being clear - I wasn't trying to take part in a judgement, from an academic interest, i was curious if you had an alternate meaning of the word, it being as archaic as it is. That's all
53 Bots/FF/Mace Mastermind | 53 NRG/FF/Electricity Defender | 50 Time/Dual Pistols/Soul Defender | 50 Demons/FF/Mace Mastermind | 51 Necro/Dark/Soul Mastermind | 50 Thugs/Time/Mace Mastermind | 50 Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker | 50 Plant/Rad/Earth Controller | 50 Illusion/Trick Arrow Controller | 50 Gravity/Force Field Controller
Yes, I like Force Fields.
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If any character is put into the position that they need to use rest in 30 seconds because of endurance, even with rest recharging that fast, I don't see using rest that often as fast-paced enjoyable play.
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For the pre-Stamina levels in question, rest is often needed after every spawn.
[/ QUOTE ]Uh. Huh? Often?
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If you try to take down a white lieutenant and minion standard solo combination, a tanker will surely need to rest if the lieutenant of that combo is a Tsoo Sorcerer. The same goes for a 3 minion spawn of CoT spectres. Leaving aside whether your hit points will carry you through such a fight, the end game of any such single spawn will consist of waiting for enough endurance to fire off an attack and hoping it hits; and you will need to rest when it is over.
[/ QUOTE ]You know, if you stopped turning all your inspirations into blues and turned one or two of them into yellows, you might not have this problem.
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For the pre-Stamina levels in question, rest is often needed after every spawn.
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I generally only see this when new players forget to turn off Sprint.
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If you try to take down a white lieutenant and minion standard solo combination, a tanker will surely need to rest if the lieutenant of that combo is a Tsoo Sorcerer. The same goes for a 3 minion spawn of CoT spectres. Leaving aside whether your hit points will carry you through such a fight, the end game of any such single spawn will consist of waiting for enough endurance to fire off an attack and hoping it hits; and you will need to rest when it is over.
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This why my usual advice for early levels is "Accuracy, Accuracy, Accuracy!"
What I think may be a problem is that new players don't realize how weak those early Enhancements are. While slotting a mix of Enhancements like Accuracy, Damage and Endurance might seem like a good idea, they're barely effecting the power. That's why I'm all for more effective Enhancements early on.
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This is my thinking exactly.
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If you try to take down a white lieutenant and minion standard solo combination, a tanker will surely need to rest if the lieutenant of that combo is a Tsoo Sorcerer.
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I don't have that problem.
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If you try to take down a white lieutenant and minion standard solo combination, a tanker will surely need to rest if the lieutenant of that combo is a Tsoo Sorcerer.
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I don't have that problem.
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Dropping the mission isn't an elegant option
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If you try to take down a white lieutenant and minion standard solo combination, a tanker will surely need to rest if the lieutenant of that combo is a Tsoo Sorcerer.
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I don't have that problem.
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Dropping the mission isn't an elegant option
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I don't have that problem, either. But maybe I'm just smart enough to not simply stand in Hurricane wailing away on a target with floored ToHit until my end is gone?
Ok ... then it takes that much longer to defeat the Sorcerer.
The point Heraclea was trying to make was that pre-Stamina Tankers are ill equipped for prolonged fights and often these fights are prolonged due to accuracy issues coupled with endurance issues which still abound in those early levels.
Now you can make this arguement across all ATs (or most of them) which I would agree with. Hence a change that effects all ATs at these early levels.
And let's face it, you just aren't going to get that much accuracy out of TO or DO enhancements, even if you actually buy enhancements at those levels. I never buy TOs; it seems better to save the inf and just go with what drops.
And acting alone, my 12-21 characters could not consistently afford DOs, IOs, or their initial SOs either. Most of mine get by now by being twinked by high levels, who make lowbie IOs in search of badges, and dump the high level SOs they get from regular play into a bin of IOs that can be sold whenever a character runs short of inf.
That isn't an option for everyone, and especially isn't going to be an option for a new player. The endurance mechanic hits hardest on low level characters played by people new to the game, and it seems to me that would be a marketing problem.
And, in the scenarios mentioned, you have to go after the Sorcerer first: nothing else is going to be defeated until the Sorcerer is.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Couldnt agree more.
The end issue is pretty much why I PL most of my toons to at least 21 before really trying em out. On those rare occasions I actually do run lower level content, the only things I slot for are end reduction and accuracy, and that is only when I get dropped those enhancements as it is just a waste to buy them. I fully agree that they should just do away with TOs and DOs. If they are worried about lowbies being overpowered to the content, which I dont really see being an issue, they could scale the SOs a little more drastically levelwise.
The devs really could stand to learn from other MMOs out there regarding this issue, even WoW figured out that micromanaging end/mana/energy, whatever you want to call it, takes a big part of the fun out of the game, and adjusted powers to take this into consideration and alleviate some of the pain. Can you run dry still, of course. But, the energy mechanic is different for each class. Tanks in battle, unless they are in a battle they are way overgeared for anyway, almost NEVER run out of energy. They also figured out that if EVERYONE in a certain class takes an ability, then maybe they should make the ability inherent to the class, thereby reducing the cookie cutter approach to peoples builds. Don't get me wrong, I am in no way saying that as a whole that game is better, but as far as this issue is concerned, they are, considerably.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
I like the carrot on the stick approach. You get the temporary buff, you are directed at content, and it rewards action
53 Bots/FF/Mace Mastermind | 53 NRG/FF/Electricity Defender | 50 Time/Dual Pistols/Soul Defender | 50 Demons/FF/Mace Mastermind | 51 Necro/Dark/Soul Mastermind | 50 Thugs/Time/Mace Mastermind | 50 Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker | 50 Plant/Rad/Earth Controller | 50 Illusion/Trick Arrow Controller | 50 Gravity/Force Field Controller
Yes, I like Force Fields.