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or just use recov bonus like the rest of us smart people
i see a tank poppin blues ill kick you and do it myself. cant manage your build you certainly cant handle aggro and i dont need a taunt bot.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is a pretty stupid statement. The blues are there to help you manage endurance.
@ThrillKiller
IMHO, I think this is a part in the overall design and can't be limited to tankers. Adjusting endurance issues for tanks will do nothing for other AT's or tanks past lvl 20. But all of this is subjective to power selection, slotting and style of play. To expect to have everything handed to you (I was against the accuracy buff too) from the beginning of the game is a bit unfair. If you, I or anyone coming into the game doesn't realize that the blue bar and how much of it's left determines whether or not how I attack, then they have more to learn about mmo's or where failing in other mmo's to begin with.
[ QUOTE ]
IMHO, I think this is a part in the overall design and can't be limited to tankers. Adjusting endurance issues for tanks will do nothing for other AT's or tanks past lvl 20. But all of this is subjective to power selection, slotting and style of play. To expect to have everything handed to you (I was against the accuracy buff too) from the beginning of the game is a bit unfair. If you, I or anyone coming into the game doesn't realize that the blue bar and how much of it's left determines whether or not how I attack, then they have more to learn about mmo's or where failing in other mmo's to begin with.
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I agree with the Pirate and he helps to confirm my theory of Pirate > Ninja.
I had an idea that I posted in teh Gauntlet 2.0 thread that addressed the endurance issue specifically for Tankers and that was to modify the Tanker Inherent to act similar to the Brutes Fury inherent only instead of the more you attack or are attacked you get stronger you gain an endurance discount. This way the tanker can virtually keep attacking for substantially longer periods of time and just like the Fury bar once you stop attacking or being attacked the bar loses the discount eventually allowing you to start over from scratch.
Granted this idea only helps the Tanker, but as this is the Tanker forum I thought it had some merit. I will admit to not being a numbers person so I don't know if this would make the AT overpowered or not. It's just an idea that addresses the End issue and is freely given and well meant. Cheers.
Heroes help kids dream of being heroes.
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In other words, frustrating the customer is costing CoH money.
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I would think you have some type of evidence to support this right?
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Proof? No ... as I said in my post, I can only surmise that people leave the game due to frustration of one type or another, and the most popular form of frustration with CoH is endurance.
From just the first page of this forum, all these posts either center around or mention endurance issues, with the majority being about the low level game (not including this thread):
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....=0#Post13787170
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....;gonew=1#UNREAD
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....=0#Post13781409
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....=0#Post13762449
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....=0#Post13784867
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....;gonew=1#UNREAD
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I'm one of those players that don't wish for lowbies to have it much easier. I think making endurance tough in the low levels helps teach players how to effectively slot their characters and learn the mechanics of the game.
The devs already incorporated better accuracy for lowbies, which ties directly into endurance efficiency. I really don't think this game needs to be made an easier for the low levels when players spend the least amount of time in that range.
Whether your suggestion to "fix" these issues is well thought out or not doesn't matter to me since I don't agree with the premise of low level endurance efficiency needing improvement in any way.
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Fortunately you're in the minority here.
Historically speaking, MMOs tend to baby the first 20% of their levelling curve (virtually every MMO I've played since EQ in 99 has faster recovery forms for those levels). CoH is the paradox to this, where the first half of the game is the hardest, with the second half becoming exponentially easy.
Also I don't equate "skill" or "babying" people with having them fight against out of context game mechanics. Making a person take 10 minutes to get through an encounter that should take 1 minute because they have to watch while their end bar tick up enough to launch another attack isn't lack of skill ... it's just bad design.
The fact that it's happening to the newest players to the game, is giving a lousy first impression. Any person in marketing can tell you that that translates into loss of revenue in a commercial market.
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If you, I or anyone coming into the game doesn't realize that the blue bar and how much of it's left determines whether or not how I attack, then they have more to learn about mmo's or where failing in other mmo's to begin with.
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That you can learn to work around the issues does not make it good design. I haven't ever seen anybody put forward a good argument why being endurance-starved at low levels makes the game more interesting, reflects genre conventions properly (the opposite, if anything), or has some other positive property.
Absence of demonstrable harm is not the same as the presence of something good.
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IMHO, I think this is a part in the overall design and can't be limited to tankers. Adjusting endurance issues for tanks will do nothing for other AT's or tanks past lvl 20. But all of this is subjective to power selection, slotting and style of play. To expect to have everything handed to you (I was against the accuracy buff too) from the beginning of the game is a bit unfair. If you, I or anyone coming into the game doesn't realize that the blue bar and how much of it's left determines whether or not how I attack, then they have more to learn about mmo's or where failing in other mmo's to begin with.
[/ QUOTE ]
My suggestion pertains to all ATs ... it just happens that Tankers receive the worst brunt of it (and I tend to only post on the Tanker forums 
).
Again the attitude of who is entitled to what is meaningless here. This is a video game whose only function to the consumer is to provide entertainment and whose only function to the parent company is to provide revenue.
Within that context, CoH could be doing much better (imo) financially with a fairly small change and easily accomplished change to the current system.
Would it make the early levels easier? Absolutely ... but the caveat here is that it would also make them much more enjoyable (especially to new players), which is the key for retaining new players.
P.S. - I happen to know you haven't spent more then half an hour on a toon that was less then L20 in the past least three months because I've power levelled most of em
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or just use recov bonus like the rest of us smart people
i see a tank poppin blues ill kick you and do it myself. cant manage your build you certainly cant handle aggro and i dont need a taunt bot.
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I lol'd
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Fortunately you're in the minority here.
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I doubt it. It's more like we are both in the minority of a minority (vocal forum posters) of a minority (forumites). So, neither of us has the right to claim "majority."
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Historically speaking, MMOs tend to baby the first 20% of their levelling curve (virtually every MMO I've played since EQ in 99 has faster recovery forms for those levels). CoH is the paradox to this, where the first half of the game is the hardest, with the second half becoming exponentially easy.
[/ QUOTE ]
So what? This is CoX and not some other MMO. We are not talking about the first half of this game; levels 1-20 are more like 1/5 of the leveling process, and I find it laughable you consider 1-20 the "hardest." Perhaps you mean most tedious which is more subjective and entirely your opinion.
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Also I don't equate "skill" or "babying" people with having them fight against out of context game mechanics. Making a person take 10 minutes to get through an encounter that should take 1 minute because they have to watch while their end bar tick up enough to launch another attack isn't lack of skill ... it's just bad design.
[/ QUOTE ]
Using hyperbole to state your argument will only show it's weaknesses. Allowing players to spam their attacks without consequence teaching them nothing of the game's mechanics or how to properly slot/enhance their character with enhancements, inventions or power/epic pools.
Skill is involved though. It takes skill to figure out the most efficient use of your endurance rather then just button smashing in hopes of defeating your enemies. It does take skill to pick which enhancements will allow to you focus your attacks, controls, etc etc most efficiently. And it does take skill to LEARN how to use the mechanics of this game to your benefit.
What you want is a no-thinking, no-skill, button smashing experience. That's a terrible design IMO.
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The fact that it's happening to the newest players to the game, is giving a lousy first impression. Any person in marketing can tell you that that translates into loss of revenue in a commercial market.
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Someone is going to complain about something in this game and it's impossible to retain every new client since most will have differing opinions.
And to be perfectly honest, I see veteran players complain far more about the low level endurance than I see new players. Most new players are just happy to be making a super hero or super villain and having fun just being here.
Lastly, I don't really think these new players need you to speak up for them. It's nice and might be considered noble but I think you want this change and that's your main motive.
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That you can learn to work around the issues does not make it good design. I haven't ever seen anybody put forward a good argument why being endurance-starved at low levels makes the game more interesting, reflects genre conventions properly (the opposite, if anything), or has some other positive property.
Absence of demonstrable harm is not the same as the presence of something good.
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I never said it was good design, the fact that a very large portion of toons have stamina may or may not prove bad design. I said that doing something about endurance should affect all AT's at level 20, not just tankers. And if indeed it an issue with tankers alone, then it should affect tankers of all levels, not just below level 20.
However, if you are going to play the game and see content past the first few levels then you have to watch your endurance. It defeats the purpose of an endurance bar to do otherwise. If the player doesn't like it, they should move on to a game that has no endurance, mana, stamina, etc.
If the slow-down for endurance is too much to bear then move on, don't spend your money here. And if the devs want to attract more players by removing some of the pitfalls at the lower levels then they shouldn't limit it to tanks at sub 20.
Honestly, the fact that everyone takes Stamina, and almost everyone takes it by 20, indicates a problem with the endurance use of the game overall. If it wasn't a problem, there wouldn't be a "must have" Pool. But there is.
Clearly something is wrong.
Who says it's a must have pool? The forums?
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IMHO, I think this is a part in the overall design and can't be limited to tankers. Adjusting endurance issues for tanks will do nothing for other AT's or tanks past lvl 20. But all of this is subjective to power selection, slotting and style of play. To expect to have everything handed to you (I was against the accuracy buff too) from the beginning of the game is a bit unfair. If you, I or anyone coming into the game doesn't realize that the blue bar and how much of it's left determines whether or not how I attack, then they have more to learn about mmo's or where failing in other mmo's to begin with.
[/ QUOTE ]
My suggestion pertains to all ATs ... it just happens that Tankers receive the worst brunt of it (and I tend to only post on the Tanker forums ).
[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough. I posted something similar replying to sorciere.
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Within that context, CoH could be doing much better (imo) financially with a fairly small change and easily accomplished change to the current system.
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That's a whole other discussion and I'm not going to get into since I'd have to charge by the hour.
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P.S. - I happen to know you haven't spent more then half an hour on a toon that was less then L20 in the past least three months because I've power levelled most of em
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Btw, it's more like 45 mninutes. And that just means I don't want to grind through 20 like I did on a many other toons through content I've seen. Two separate issues. I mean really how often do I have sprint through AP and down to city hall only to just sprint on down to KR then Perez Park or Hollows till I can get a travel power? I just gave myself something else to air for and re-experiencing that lowbie content is pushed to the wayside.
How many builds have you seen (in game) without Stamina? More to the point, how many competent builds in game have you seen without it?
I don't check out other players builds. I'm not one of those people who concern themselves with how other players build their characters. I offer support or assistance when asked but I judge no one based on their lack or addition of powers.
Stamina is a required pool for Min/Maxers...that's what you mean to say I'm guessing.
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I think that three SO slotted Stamina ought to simply be inherent, added to base recovery. The 20+ game appears to be balanced around the assumption that everyone will have taken Stamina at 20 anyways. This creates a perverse incentive to powerlevel and blow off the beginning content of the game.
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It has been suggested for a long time now to make the Fitness pool inherent to all ATs. I could not agree more with your assessment that endurance issues (even above travel time) hurts the pre-20 game and is the major incentive for people to PL through the pre SO game.
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Endurance is simply untrue to the source material. You don't see any comic book hero exhausted and needing to rest after taking on the equivalent of three minions. This is the ordinary lot of a level 18 tanker. This is the game's single greatest mechanical problem, IMO.
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I could not agree more. As you've said, it appears the game is balanced around every character of every AT taking stamina at 20. Why not just make the whole fitness pool inherent and be done with it?
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
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How many builds have you seen (in game) without Stamina? More to the point, how many competent builds in game have you seen without it?
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There was two staminaless players on the tf team I was on. One was an Ice/Fire Blaster and the other a Fire/lolDB Tank. Other than those two, I really don't see many people without stamina because it makes life less frustrating.
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or just use recov bonus like the rest of us smart people
i see a tank poppin blues ill kick you and do it myself. cant manage your build you certainly cant handle aggro and i dont need a taunt bot.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is a pretty stupid statement. The blues are there to help you manage endurance.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's a coldmed post, expect those kinds of things.
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I don't check out other players builds. I'm not one of those people who concern themselves with how other players build their characters. I offer support or assistance when asked but I judge no one based on their lack or addition of powers.
Stamina is a required pool for Min/Maxers...that's what you mean to say I'm guessing.
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Actually it's popularly (by the overwhelming vast majority of players) considered a "must have" pool to *enjoy* the game and has been since the game released.
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How about adding a similar mechanic to the "beginner's luck" accuracy bonus that they put in a few issues ago where you start with a large recovery bonus that slowly fades away as you reach level 20?
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This could work. Actually, I would propose something a bit different - an inherent for all AT's that gives a recovery bonus of, oh, maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of unslotted Stamina, but which DOES NOT STACK with Stamina.
This makes life a little easier at low levels; it makes life a little easier for people who try to do without Stamina, and it has no impact on people that choose to take Stamina.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Fortunately you're in the minority here.
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I doubt it. It's more like we are both in the minority of a minority (vocal forum posters) of a minority (forumites). So, neither of us has the right to claim "majority."
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Between the posts, the guides, the builds I've seen in game and the general advice given in-game and on these boards (and by GMs and Devs in the past I might add) put you in the minority (and a very small minority to boot).
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Historically speaking, MMOs tend to baby the first 20% of their levelling curve (virtually every MMO I've played since EQ in 99 has faster recovery forms for those levels). CoH is the paradox to this, where the first half of the game is the hardest, with the second half becoming exponentially easy.
[/ QUOTE ]
So what? This is CoX and not some other MMO. We are not talking about the first half of this game; levels 1-20 are more like 1/5 of the leveling process, and I find it laughable you consider 1-20 the "hardest." Perhaps you mean most tedious which is more subjective and entirely your opinion.
[/ QUOTE ]
MMOs operate with similar or same base systems for a reason ... they work. Because a tire company decides to make a square tire doesn't mean they shouldn't listen (and do something about it) to their customers who complain about it.
BTW 20 is 2/5 of 50, not 1/5. I say half, because after level 25 (by and large) is where the content changes from being challenging to pedestrian by and large. Part of that is where the tedium of endurance struggles end. Yes this is a subjective opinion. One shared by many people.
The hardest TF in the game currently is a full group Positron TF at L15. The only other TF that comes close to that is the MoSTF, and only because of its death/time/temp power limitations. This is also a subjective opinion based on having done everything in the game ... multiple times.
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Also I don't equate "skill" or "babying" people with having them fight against out of context game mechanics. Making a person take 10 minutes to get through an encounter that should take 1 minute because they have to watch while their end bar tick up enough to launch another attack isn't lack of skill ... it's just bad design.
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Using hyperbole to state your argument will only show it's weaknesses.
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You might want to look up the word hyperbole.
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Allowing players to spam their attacks without consequence teaching them nothing of the game's mechanics or how to properly slot/enhance their character with enhancements, inventions or power/epic pools.
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I'm not sure negative reinforcement is the way you want to treat your paying customers (obviously you personally not caring so much about the financial aspects of what we're talking about).
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Skill is involved though. It takes skill to figure out the most efficient use of your endurance rather then just button smashing in hopes of defeating your enemies. It does take skill to pick which enhancements will allow to you focus your attacks, controls, etc etc most efficiently. And it does take skill to LEARN how to use the mechanics of this game to your benefit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, I don't equate skill to dealing with clunky game mechanics.
It doesn't take any particular skill to learn what powers do, or how to enhance them or how to ration your behaviors as a form of dealing with said in-game mechanics. It takes practice. Accordingly, the paradigm of ramping up difficulty is proven to work in MMOs (games in general). Doing it in reverse as CoH does isn't sensical and is complained about on a regular basis (I've already linked some threads as "proof").
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What you want is a no-thinking, no-skill, button smashing experience. That's a terrible design IMO.
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That would be a horrible design ... unfortunately that is the current design of CoH. It's obviously not what I want.
By the way, your last statement was filled with hyperbole.
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The fact that it's happening to the newest players to the game, is giving a lousy first impression. Any person in marketing can tell you that that translates into loss of revenue in a commercial market.
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Someone is going to complain about something in this game and it's impossible to retain every new client since most will have differing opinions.
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I totally agree ... usually you will determine that there is an issue when many of the complaints center around the same issue (as is the case here).
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And to be perfectly honest, I see veteran players complain far more about the low level endurance than I see new players. Most new players are just happy to be making a super hero or super villain and having fun just being here.
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If you're talking about these boards, I'd point out that you've already admitted to being the vocal minority. Certainly most of your experience (and mine) with regards to these boards are going to be with CoH vets versus true newbies. The source of the complaint shouldn't be an issue here ... in fact you kind of reinforce my point since veteran players who have long since learned to mitigate (or blow past) the endurance issue *still* complain prolifically about it.
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Lastly, I don't really think these new players need you to speak up for them. It's nice and might be considered noble but I think you want this change and that's your main motive.
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You are correct ... I speak for no one but myself. I enjoy the game but not certain parts of it and wish to change those parts ... especially if there is a large consensus of agreement on the issue (which there seems to be here if not the actual fix).
This is the samething we did with Super Strength a few years ago and now all SS Tankers (and Brutes) enjoy a pretty hefty Knockout Blow, and knockdown versus knockback in most of its powers.
I think you'd agree that that was a pretty good change?
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or just use recov bonus like the rest of us smart people
i see a tank poppin blues ill kick you and do it myself. cant manage your build you certainly cant handle aggro and i dont need a taunt bot.
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That is a pretty stupid statement. The blues are there to help you manage endurance.
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It's a coldmed post, expect those kinds of things.
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silly after 5 years to actually have to play with people who arent reliant on inspirations
i know...silly me.
tanks to me are more then just a toon being built...thats what blasters and scrappers are for
when you play a blaster or scrapper...i dont care what you do..cause everyone stands behind me.i lead..i go first at all times..
if i actually play other a.t's...i expect the tank to do his job a tank is "made" for. to lead into battle and defend his teammates....
so if i see his build is weak or built not to do so..ill leave or get another tank..or like ive done 100000000 times over. do it myself.
i have people that wont play with me on my server cause they literally cant keep up.
im not here to chat,make friends..talk on global or wait while you feed your cats and make 7 people wait for you.
if you need cab's...whats next?.lucks?..sturdys?..yellows?..
gimmie a break...you might think this is fun for you..but i dont.
if you cant play your toon..you wont last long on my team or youll fall behind.
i dont "speed" anything ...but i dont mess around
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or just use recov bonus like the rest of us smart people
i see a tank poppin blues ill kick you and do it myself. cant manage your build you certainly cant handle aggro and i dont need a taunt bot.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is a pretty stupid statement. The blues are there to help you manage endurance.
[/ QUOTE ]
so are recov bonus's ...you lost your point.
i dont NEED cabs if i have a 3.56 recov and consume now do i?
um..no..
plus a 76% resistance on a fire tank...which is usually 70%
130% recharge as well...i kill faster heavy and i do NOT rely on cabs like you would
smarter players use their minds when building a tank....not relying on inspirations.
i stand by my staement..i got no time after 5 years to deal with tanks with no clue.
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i have people that wont play with me on my server cause they literally cant keep up.
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I highly doubt that's the real reason.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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In other words, frustrating the customer is costing CoH money.
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I would think you have some type of evidence to support this right?
I'm one of those players that don't wish for lowbies to have it much easier. I think making endurance tough in the low levels helps teach players how to effectively slot their characters and learn the mechanics of the game.
The devs already incorporated better accuracy for lowbies, which ties directly into endurance efficiency. I really don't think this game needs to be made an easier for the low levels when players spend the least amount of time in that range.
Whether your suggestion to "fix" these issues is well thought out or not doesn't matter to me since I don't agree with the premise of low level endurance efficiency needing improvement in any way.