How many new players have to complain ...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you try to take down a white lieutenant and minion standard solo combination, a tanker will surely need to rest if the lieutenant of that combo is a Tsoo Sorcerer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have that problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dropping the mission isn't an elegant option

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently, niether is using yellow inspirations, using building, hitting the sorcerer when it's switching toggles, repeatedly knocking the sorcerer down or disorienting it, or any other number of tactics that varies between powersets other than standing in a hurricane meleeing the sorcerer until your endurance bar vanishes. Yes, that's the elegant option.

Oh, and don't bother having any accuracy slotted! You just aren't going to get that much accuracy out of TOs and DOs, after all.

No wonder there are so many people with endurance problems.

[ QUOTE ]
And let's face it, you just aren't going to get that much accuracy out of TO or DO enhancements, even if you actually buy enhancements at those levels. I never buy TOs; it seems better to save the inf and just go with what drops.

And acting alone, my 12-21 characters could not consistently afford DOs, IOs, or their initial SOs either. Most of mine get by now by being twinked by high levels, who make lowbie IOs in search of badges, and dump the high level SOs they get from regular play into a bin of IOs that can be sold whenever a character runs short of inf.

That isn't an option for everyone, and especially isn't going to be an option for a new player. The endurance mechanic hits hardest on low level characters played by people new to the game, and it seems to me that would be a marketing problem.

And, in the scenarios mentioned, you have to go after the Sorcerer first: nothing else is going to be defeated until the Sorcerer is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree in essence although disagree about the pricing. The first few characters I levelled could afford their TOs and DOs (although sometimes I'd have to go out of my way to farm for them back in the day).

With the addition of sellable salvage and recipes, affordability of TOs and DOs (or converted SOs with my suggestion) shouldn't be an issue.

[ QUOTE ]
And acting alone, my 12-21 characters could not consistently afford DOs, IOs, or their initial SOs either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before i9, I would have had no problem agreeing with this statement. Ever since, I haven't had any problem completely outfitting characers with complete DOs and SOs when the time comes. Focusing on hellions and CoT, for example, before level 10, I generally don't even buy DOs, but instead go straight for generic IOs.

It doesn't happen automatically, but having a self sufficient character nowadays isn't quite as hard as it was.

[ QUOTE ]

Before i9, I would have had no problem agreeing with this statement. Ever since, I haven't had any problem completely outfitting characers with complete DOs and SOs when the time comes. Focusing on hellions and CoT, for example, before level 10, I generally don't even buy DOs, but instead go straight for generic IOs.

It doesn't happen automatically, but having a self sufficient character nowadays isn't quite as hard as it was.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference being, and getting to the original issue. Most NEW players don't have the accumulated knowledge you have. You started in what, Issue 3 or 4? You know what you need, and how to get it.

The average new player is not going to have this knowledge, and moreover, depending on who and how often they team, may not get it for a long period of time.

I quit my first 2 toons after @lvl 12. The tank I quit specifically because of end issues. The fact that some of your first power choices for some of the sets are VERY end heavy, like Blazing Aura and Death Shroud, further compound the problem. Yeah, you and I know to wait on, but to someone brand new, that is neat lookin [censored] you wanna use.

You are talking about concentrating on certain sets of mobs, the new player isnt going to do that, if he follows the content, he is going to go wherever the contact sends him. Otherwise, he is going to end up in the sewers or in the AE, and I am not going to even open that can of worms. The mobs you mentioned, at least CoT, new players are going to try to avoid like the plague.

So yeah, you are right, those of us that have been around, we are more able to mitigate those issues. Just because you have it all figured out doesn't mean everyone else does.

To quote George Carlin - "Look at how stupid the average person is , and remember 1/2 the people are dumber than that!"

im a Scrapper and i hav the same problem with endurance even tho i put enhancements that lower the cost

Hero Name: NeoMVP level 14
Account: trial...probaly forever

I see this alot from Scrappers. My best advice?, make a regen or WP scrap, or use end redux's. Stam is pretty nice to have, but its only pivotal for Tanks and DA users.

[ QUOTE ]
I see this alot from Scrappers. My best advice?, make a regen or WP scrap, or use end redux's. Stam is pretty nice to have, but its only pivotal for Tanks and DA users.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 4 Scrappers including a Regen and a WP ... they all have Stamina and use every inch of it.

[ QUOTE ]
Most NEW players don't have the accumulated knowledge you have

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't attempting to debate how easily new players make influence, specifically. I was responding to someone that supposedly knows enough to give advice on these forums, yet finds DOs expensive when they really aren't. You've completely misread my post if you thought I was critiquing the money-making activities of new players.

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that some of your first power choices for some of the sets are VERY end heavy, like Blazing Aura and Death Shroud, further compound the problem. Yeah, you and I know to wait on, but to someone brand new, that is neat lookin [censored] you wanna use.

[/ QUOTE ]

I take and use all damage auras as soon as they're available

[ QUOTE ]
You are talking about concentrating on certain sets of mobs

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a bonus and not required for a character to be self sufficient. I specifically mentioned that that activity allows me to surpass DOs and SOs.

My point , and the point being made by the OP, was about new players.

As for people with skill making money in game, and being a skilled player are mutually exclusive. You can get multiple toons to 50, learn to play them inside and out and even start working on sets of IOs without ever setting foot into Wentworths. I personally avoided the whole crafting system, and Wentworths for a LONG time. After playing WoW, it was one headache I didn't want to recreate here.

Generally speaking, if you make your toons each self sufficient, and do not use your 50s to bankroll your lowbies, if you get crappy you can still go broke quite easily.

And to get back on to the original post, which was what I was trying to address in the first place, unless you go to some pretty great lengths, for many powersets, but especially tanks, pre-stamina is hellish, and it really doesn't get much better from there.

Like I said early in this thread, all new games are trial and error- new players are going to make mistakes. What's important is that there's enough information for the players to make informed choices, a lot of players run into trouble because they choose to ignore a lot of information.

I'm going to post my Enhancement revamp idea on the suggestion board when we switch to the new forums, because I think it deals with that issue: new players are told to use Enhancements to lower End use, increase Accuracy, etc. but those early Enhancements are doing very little.

Adding slots and putting Enhancements in them is the right way to make a power (and your character) more effective. I don't think we need changes and new systems to help the early game, we just need to make the current system work the way it should.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here we go again Sorciere, not playing the game again, stuck on these boards...I love the dichotomy....(big word of the day).

[ QUOTE ]
You may be interested to learn that the lead class designer of WoW recently mentioned that he found the downtime for warriors to be a problem (most WoW classes have abilities to manage and reduce downtime, such as Spirit Tap for priests, and many classes do not have significant downtime at all if they play smart, such as hunters, death knights, or rogues). You may also be interested to learn, for example, that retribution paladin mana recovery in WotLK was specifically calibrated so that unless they used wasteful abilities or bit off more than they could chew, their mana recovery was meant to match their normal attack chains (and did).

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets see some actual statements from the lead designers. Proof, evidence, something that doesn't make me think that you just pulled that out of your smock. But if indeed this was the released statement, their not going to change the downtime for Warriors when mitigation in the form of bandages exist. I.e. the catch a breath in this game.

[ QUOTE ]
Useit.com is the website of Jacob Nielsen, one of the pioneers of usability research. It is simply a commonly cited online resource. If you wish, I can probably find you peer-reviewed papers that cover the same topic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let it be known that just because you can "google it" does not make said subject accurate or trustworthy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a dev credit for Dark Age of Camelot and have worked with the devs (and lead devs at times) for WoW, CoH and EQ. In each of those games, reducing downtime while maintaining the pace of the game was one of the paramount concerns.

Having said that, it has been a downward trend to this date. EQ introduced horrific downtimes (imagine waiting 15 minutes for your group to heal and med (end) up or taking over an hour to buff a raid) and since EQ, each successive MMO that has come along has reduced its down time even more where possible.

Since CoH is 5 years old, one could say it's 5 years out of date with respect to downtime (specifically with regards to the L1-20 game). Many older MMOs have adjusted their downtime cycles downward including WoW. CoH did it with in essence with IOs but this still hasn't effected the L1-20 game which is the essence of this thread with respect to endurance woes.

[/ QUOTE ]

CoH has made strides in reducing downtime and increasing the overall pace of this game quite a large amount. Unfortunately they just haven't really done it in terms of endurance yet.

Travel time has been reduced dramatically in the early levels (and the entire game)with more ways to get from A to B. Also temp travel powers at lvl 5 and 10 are major.

Xp smoothing and cutting debt to the point it is meaningless has also greatly reduced the hrs needed to level up toons.

However, for w/e reasons they haven't done anything about the blue bar blues . In fact, now that I can just toggle on temp superjump and leap over to the next spawn rather than waltzing over at a snails pace has only served to exasperate the issue (albeit to a small degree).

In a game where everyone sings about the "Journey" rather than the destination, why does it feel like I'm always working toward lvl 20 with each new toon? That is the definition of a "destination oriented goal".

I agree with pretty much everything Kruunch has said. I haven't looked too closely at his proposal to remedy the problem, but he is definitely spot on with everything surrounding the issue.

Okay...I have a Regen and a WP and both don't "need" stamina. I use certain IO's to help with that. Never ran into a problem so far. The difference, I don't use stam as a crutch.

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said early in this thread, all new games are trial and error- new players are going to make mistakes. What's important is that there's enough information for the players to make informed choices, a lot of players run into trouble because they choose to ignore a lot of information.

I'm going to post my Enhancement revamp idea on the suggestion board when we switch to the new forums, because I think it deals with that issue: new players are told to use Enhancements to lower End use, increase Accuracy, etc. but those early Enhancements are doing very little.

Adding slots and putting Enhancements in them is the right way to make a power (and your character) more effective. I don't think we need changes and new systems to help the early game, we just need to make the current system work the way it should.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen

[ QUOTE ]
Okay...I have a Regen and a WP and both don't "need" stamina. I use certain IO's to help with that. Never ran into a problem so far. The difference, I don't use stam as a crutch.

[/ QUOTE ]
"I don't have a problem with it, you're just doing it wrong" is a really bad argument when "wrong" is synonymous with "intuitive".

On a point for non-tanks, my recent experience with some of my lowbie alts with this issue on my mind has shown me that for a lot of my non-tank low levels, health is the bigger bottleneck than endurance (they simply don't have the mitigation to survive a fight long enough to use up their endurance), which might be why non-tanks don't notice the issue as much. Once these characters hit their teens and start getting some of their more staple attacks, this changes, and the 12-20 game become endurance again.

Assuming that said lowbie isn't biting off more then they can chew, isn't a large part of that due to accuracy and damage (not having enough of either to kill the mob before it kills you)?

Wouldn't SO level enhancements at L1-20 mitigate some of that?

[ QUOTE ]
On a point for non-tanks, my recent experience with some of my lowbie alts with this issue on my mind has shown me that for a lot of my non-tank low levels, health is the bigger bottleneck than endurance (they simply don't have the mitigation to survive a fight long enough to use up their endurance), which might be why non-tanks don't notice the issue as much. Once these characters hit their teens and start getting some of their more staple attacks, this changes, and the 12-20 game become endurance again.

[/ QUOTE ]

This, too, would also be helped by making Rest recharge in a much shorter time than three minutes.

<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

How does rest alleviate lack of damage mitigation?

Or are we talking about the down time due to low health?

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming that said lowbie isn't biting off more then they can chew, isn't a large part of that due to accuracy and damage (not having enough of either to kill the mob before it kills you)?

[/ QUOTE ]
In the particular case that brought this to mind, it was a low-level Warshade up against a +1 minion/lt pair (CoT, and I was on Heroic, the mission just decided +1 sounded fun). Had to retreat several times to win. Either a faster Rest (enabling better retreat-and-rest tactics) or better enhancements likely would have been the tipping point to correct this.

And before you ask, there wasn't a Void Hunter involved in this particular issue.

No time to read everything but from the OP I thought about higher end recovery in the lower levels and for low level end reducers to become schedule b instead of schedule a to compensate. This way you have higher end rec aiding pace as some/most people are barely likely to slot end anyway for want of acc and dam.

I would go Willpower Tank. I don't really have issues with Endurance though because I take Stamina as soon as I can and until then I travel with teams and someone always has SBs or a blue inspiration if the moment is dire.

Did I really beat Johnny Butane to a thread on endurance, that was already 8 pages in length?
Anway IBTJB

Out of curiosity Hereclea, how is it that you cannot afford DOs at 12? I remember back in I6/I7 that I had to pick and choose what to slot with DOs because I couldn't afford more thant two or three powers slotted. I even jumped level 12 when they opened and only slotted at 17, cash was just that bad.

I returned in I11 and never again found a lack of cash once I stumbled in the WW. I would understand a newcomer stating those sort of problems, but you hardly are one.

Without playing the market, without running from WW to the shops and back, simply putting what dropped in the WW at the going prices always afforded the enough cash to slow DOs at 12 and 17. Slotting normal IOs at 22 was were I'd usually stumble even buying recipes and ingredients instead of buying the enhances already crafted, but even so by 23-24 I'd be good to go. Of course SOs would've worked better but I made the math and buying IOs saved cash on the run to 50.

Lets not go into MA now, where tickets easily slot us all the way to 50, or the fact the prices have jacked up so high that selling at WW gives much more cash.


My own personal DO slotting is the regular acc (immediatly, I hate whiffing) and damage. A few endurance points less per attack still means needing to spam them more often to actually kill something.

I'm signing up for the same acc buff lowbies get to extend towards endurance recovery, btw.