You used the term "lolDB" and your taking a snipe at Coldmed?....some of us are pots, others are kettles I would assume.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
1000 kudos for actually coming up with research validating user frustration at down times.
Also 100% agree.
Kruunch,
While I want to respond to several points in this thread, I only have time to respond to a couple of things. Hopefully, later tonight, I can have the time to craft a larger response to this, but I'm not sure if I will. As such, I will only touch on a few things here.
The first one is sampling bias. You are looking at the forums as your base for suggesting this (and your own experiences, of course). However, the forums are a bad source of data for a couple of reasons:
1) As mentioned before, this is a small minority of the larger player population.
2) People post to complain more often than they will to acknowledge something as being fine.
What 2) means is that of course you're going to have people coming here and complaining about endurance, because here is the place where they can get help for it. Do you really think that people are going to post a build here, and then say, "everything's fine, just thought you should know!"? I know of nobody in the game who, when discovering that endurance isn't an issue for them, needs to run off to tell the forums about it. But the people who are having a problem with it will definitely come here, to see if there is a solution they haven't thought of.
It's like a police station. How many times do you think they have people coming in every day just to say that they have no crimes to report? If you were standing around the police station, and took what people said as your sampling data, then you would come to the conclusion that everyone has reported a crime, so that everyone in the outside world must be having the same trouble.
My second point is this: people will generally take the path of least resistance in a game. That is why Stamina is so popular. Even if they slot well enough that Endurance isn't a concern anymore, most still keep Stamina. Why is that? Why is it that Regen and Willpower players still tend to take Stamina, despite having a power in their primary/secondary that is BETTER than it? Is it because they really need it, or is it because it allows them to push the envelope even more?
You can get by through the entire game without taking Stamina. As your character progresses, you can slot more for endurance reduction in both attacks and defenses. You can use IOs that give you next endurance reduction greater than the recovery effect of Stamina. This, in addition to the fact that the game is designed to make you feel more "super" at the end as opposed to the beginning, is a change from other MMOs. Do the others still work? Sure. But this one was trying to show that there isn't just one way to make it work. The game was set up so that you feel more powerful at the end of the game, instead of getting more powers, only to feel exactly the same, because the enemies grew just the same (or more) in power level.
Frustration might not be the best teacher, but it is a teacher. You try to learn to avoid that frustration. In regards to Endurance, it means that you learn to manage to avoid capping it out, however it is you do that. That can mean learning to manage your toggles, or learn to choose your attacks (that minion with a sliver of health might just not need a full KoB to the face when Jab would do). It DOES make you a better player to have to deal with that in the early game.
My third point is this: the customer is not always right. If I went into a Best Buy, after purchasing a few DVDs, and demanded that I was short changed because I didn't get a DVD player with them, would I be right to demand one? Why not? If I'm always right, you should give me a DVD player. Or, is the customer always right, up to a point? That is what people tend to forget about that saying. There is a point where you just can't or won't help them, because it's not in the company's best interest.
To compound that, sometimes, people do not act in their own best interest. If you were to poll the players, and asked them if they wanted to just start all of their characters at level 50 with 2 billion influence to play with, I'm willing to bet that a majority of them would say yes. However, people would probably get very bored with that quickly, and leave the game faster than they would had that not gone into the game. But hey, they wanted it, right? So why not give it to them?
Sometimes, a company must avoid giving the customer exactly what they are asking for, because it's not really in their long-term interest to do so. For Paragon Studios, it means that they are trying to keep the customer as long as they can, since that is how they get their money. Do you really think that if they made this game so mind-numbingly easy that you just had to sit there and do nothing to really pay attention to what you're doing, that people would stay longer than if the game was kept as is?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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i have people that wont play with me on my server cause they literally cant keep up.
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I highly doubt that's the real reason.
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want me to give you names aett?...
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Note that my earlier specific example was actually referring to an /SR scrapper.
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I never really have an end issue with SR since I'm usually on a team with a tank, therefore my toggles are more than likely off. The passives alone help with any incoming dmg, but if need be I turn em on. Its really a need to spam button's vs the ability to control yourself and let your end build back up. Hence why for some (I included) 1-19 stamina less is still done. Learn to pace yourself, I understand your a Scrapper but holding back some DPS might help.
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What I am saying, to be clear, is that the current endurance model is an example of poor game design. Not with respect to just tankers, but with respect to the game as a whole. It does not fit the genre, it is poorly calibrated, and it is at its worst during the period when you want to sell players on the game.
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This late into CoH and with dual builds I would assume Stam isn't really needed, especially with IO's and End Redux's. Tanks would obviously be the Stam herders, but even then, finding synergy with a secondary to replenish end is easy. Then again what game are you looking for?, last time I checked WoW had over 11 million players and everything from Warrior's to Priests have down time, via by lack of health or mana. I don't know what exactly you want , but every MMO I have played keeps the player down for some time, you can't just throw endless streams of powers without some downtime.
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Forced downtime is generally anathema for MMORPGs
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Seriously, did you just seriously used the word anathema?. Honestly Sorciere who are you trying to impress with a word commonly used in the 1500's. Was loathe not enough? or was "hate" too simple?. In any case, players who love the content will wait as long as possible. Hence why MMo's like Ultima are still around. Then again your basing your information on a website called Useit.com, I think that pretty much says it right there.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
Usually happens with my Tank when I'm running a TF, either a Blaster or a scrapper just can't keep up. But then again its Aett, using proof isn't exactly his "thing".
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
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Frustration might not be the best teacher, but it is a teacher. You try to learn to avoid that frustration.
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That is true, but it also depends on what options you have to avoid that frustration; none of the usual options make the game more challenging or complex; they simply hammer home the repetitive, grindy aspects. It's not that you are at risk of failing because of limited endurance recovery; it's generally simply that missions become more drawn-out. Some of the most endurance-efficient options (such as damage auras) actually REDUCE interactivity.
As I said above, you have very limited tactical options to counter that, and the options that you have have generally little to do with actually managing endurance as a resource (such as if your powers had significantly different endurance efficiency).
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Usually happens with my Tank when I'm running a TF, either a Blaster or a scrapper just can't keep up. But then again its Aett, using proof isn't exactly his "thing".
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Really? This coming from the poster who where in another thread, when somebody posted a video backing up my side of the argument, you provided no proof of your own? Yeah, sure, we'll go with me not using proof.
Let alone that it was more a tongue-in-cheek comment to Coldmed than anything, since with as much money as he pumps into his builds, I really would be that the vast majority of players (the normal people who play the game) wouldn't be able to keep up.
If I had as much influence as Coldmed has access to, I'd probably have the same problem. But neither would I kick people for using inspirations to help mitigate that.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Seems everyone is "on" today....guess playing the game is the anathema of most board members... 
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
Sour grapes because I used someones video as proof for my point?. Yeah it happens. Especially when your proven wrong....
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
Aett you are being disengenious and frankly you're more intelligent then that.
How many toons do you have? How many toons of yours have Stamina? I'd be willing to bet a vast majority. Why is that? Because playing the game without it sucks? There's a world of difference between "getting by" and "enjoying" the game and you know that.
These boards, the people I know and interact with in-game, the devs, the GMs, my own personal experience ... these are all apart of my "sampling bias". Does it make my point any more or less relevant? No.
Unless you're the least bit concerned about keeping your recurring income which CoH happens to be based on.
And while I agree that the average consumer is probably not aware of what's best for the long term viability of an MMO with respect to the demographic it's aimed at, the average consumer does know what is best for their long term viability in a given MMO. If most of them have the same complaint, common sense dictates that maybe it's not everyone else that has the problem ... maybe it's the game.
The attitude that the consumer can go screw (and/or is stupid) is a really bad one .... even when it does apply. Marketing 101.
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Sour grapes because I used someones video as proof for my point?. Yeah it happens. Especially when your proven wrong....
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Except, the video proved YOU wrong. There was two of them to do so, and you gave no evidence of your own to back up your point. So you can continue to believe what you will, but I'm really not the one that has a problem with proof.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Actually the videos proved that some aura's are weak and you can lose aggro if say, someone is blasting or scrapping their hearts out.Which was my original point. Maybe you didn't see that part in your wanting to be right.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
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I never really have an end issue with SR since I'm usually on a team with a tank, therefore my toggles are more than likely off.
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If you look at my earlier post, I was talking about the early levels, through the early teens, especially solo, and where tankers do not necessarily have reliable aggro management.
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This late into CoH and with dual builds I would assume Stam isn't really needed, especially with IO's and End Redux's.
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I am talking primarily about (1) new players at (2) low levels here (per the topic of the thread), who may not even know about IOs and where endurance reductions are TO-sized.
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Then again what game are you looking for?, last time I checked WoW had over 11 million players and everything from Warrior's to Priests have down time, via by lack of health or mana.
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You may be interested to learn that the lead class designer of WoW recently mentioned that he found the downtime for warriors to be a problem (most WoW classes have abilities to manage and reduce downtime, such as Spirit Tap for priests, and many classes do not have significant downtime at all if they play smart, such as hunters, death knights, or rogues). You may also be interested to learn, for example, that retribution paladin mana recovery in WotLK was specifically calibrated so that unless they used wasteful abilities or bit off more than they could chew, their mana recovery was meant to match their normal attack chains (and did).
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I don't know what exactly you want , but every MMO I have played keeps the player down for some time, you can't just throw endless streams of powers without some downtime.
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Nor am I saying that you should. But using an attack chain consisting of two attacks at low levels while also running a toggle or two hardly constitutes an "endless stream of powers".
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Forced downtime is generally anathema for MMORPGs
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Seriously, did you just seriously used the word anathema?. Honestly Sorciere who are you trying to impress with a word commonly used in the 1500's. Was loathe not enough? or was "hate" too simple?.
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I am not sure what you're getting it, but it is common practice to use a variety of synonyms in writing in order to avoid repetition. As to "anathema", Google has 3.25 million hits for the word; it is not a very common word, but it's hardly extinct, either. If you wish, though, you can blame the fact that I am not a native speaker of English and sometimes employ unidiomatic expressions.
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In any case, players who love the content will wait as long as possible. Hence why MMo's like Ultima are still around. Then again your basing your information on a website called Useit.com, I think that pretty much says it right there.
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Useit.com is the website of Jacob Nielsen, one of the pioneers of usability research. It is simply a commonly cited online resource. If you wish, I can probably find you peer-reviewed papers that cover the same topic.
First off, I am not saying that the average customer must go screw. I certainly did not want to give off that vibe, nor was it my attention. My apologies if that was the case.
Most of my characters do have Stamina, in order to keep up or because they are endurance pigs. There are a couple that don't, or that probably don't need it since they have other tools at their disposal. I am not saying that Stamina isn't a great power, nor that it doesn't make the game a lot faster.
But I guess here is my point: if Stamina (the power) was removed from the game (or better yet, had never been put in), would people adjust to the new restrictions? I'm betting that they would. Stamina merely allows you to limit a certain restriction, sometimes to the point where it is no longer the primary restriction on your character's speed. At any point where that was put into the game, I would expect players to go for it.
People tend to take Stamina now. I am not going to argue that point (I am on your side with saying that I would bet a majority of players take it). With it in the game, Endurance becomes much less of a concern, to the point where people would tend to rate recharge or damage as their next slowing point for going at the speed they want. If a power was put into the game that was liek Hasten, but was passive, I'm betting that people would have the same complaints about that as they do about Stamina now - namely, that the game really doesn't get going until they get that power. And if that was in, and another passive power was put in that raised your damage by 100%, I'm betting that people would say that the game really doesn't get moving until you have that too.
People will always complain about what is limiting them the most. But there will ALWAYS be something limiting them the most. And they will always complain about that the most, and also try to mitigate it the most. It's pretty much human nature. I'm certainly not arguing with your right to complain about Endurance or the need for Stamina. I just feel that if Endurance was fixde to your satisfaction, that people would just complain about something else limiting them instead, and we'd be back here again, talking about that. It would really never end, because as soon as the Devs addressed one 'issue', there would be another that people were asking to be removed.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Actually the videos proved that some aura's are weak and you can lose aggro if say, someone is blasting or scrapping their hearts out.Which was my original point. Maybe you didn't see that part in your wanting to be right.
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Actually, they showed that the aggro aura held the aggro. The only minion that was attracted to the Blaster was one that was outside of the aggro aura's radius. It pretty much proved that as long as the enemy is being affected by the aggro aura, the Blaster wasn't go to peel the aggro off of it.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Here we go again Sorciere, not playing the game again, stuck on these boards...I love the dichotomy....(big word of the day).
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You may be interested to learn that the lead class designer of WoW recently mentioned that he found the downtime for warriors to be a problem (most WoW classes have abilities to manage and reduce downtime, such as Spirit Tap for priests, and many classes do not have significant downtime at all if they play smart, such as hunters, death knights, or rogues). You may also be interested to learn, for example, that retribution paladin mana recovery in WotLK was specifically calibrated so that unless they used wasteful abilities or bit off more than they could chew, their mana recovery was meant to match their normal attack chains (and did).
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Lets see some actual statements from the lead designers. Proof, evidence, something that doesn't make me think that you just pulled that out of your smock. But if indeed this was the released statement, their not going to change the downtime for Warriors when mitigation in the form of bandages exist. I.e. the catch a breath in this game.
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Useit.com is the website of Jacob Nielsen, one of the pioneers of usability research. It is simply a commonly cited online resource. If you wish, I can probably find you peer-reviewed papers that cover the same topic.
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Let it be known that just because you can "google it" does not make said subject accurate or trustworthy.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
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You used the term "lolDB" and your taking a snipe at Coldmed?....some of us are pots, others are kettles I would assume.
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I always thought of DB being pretty lulzy the day it came out.
And I always think of Coldmed of being pretty lulzy, too.
Watch some of the videos again, he loses aggro from several Rikti while their in aggro range. I specifically comment on that moment. He has to run/teleport to the minion and hit it to get enough aggro to pull off the mob, but we digress don't we?.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
Your using words like "lulzy"...and I'm assuming you have not played a DB of any kind to think that its "lulzy" or you have and have no idea on how to play one. Now if you have said Fire tank out the gate are "lulzy" sure, or even if you said Rock tanks pre granite "lulzy" I would have understood.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
Anathema is an awesome word, and should be used as often as possible.
Henceforth, I shall refer to all uses of colloquial language as anathema.
Sure it has its places, on MMO boards...not so much. Especially when people are clicking around using words like "lawl , "lulzy", and really anything 4chan related.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
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Seriously, did you just seriously used the word anathema?. Honestly Sorciere who are you trying to impress with a word commonly used in the 1500's. Was loathe not enough? or was "hate" too simple?
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Methinks thou art a caitiff knave; aroint thee.
Man, it's been too long since I've been properly arointed.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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I never said it was good design, the fact that a very large portion of toons have stamina may or may not prove bad design. I said that doing something about endurance should affect all AT's at level 20, not just tankers. And if indeed it an issue with tankers alone, then it should affect tankers of all levels, not just below level 20.
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I may not have expressed myself clearly enough -- I was speaking more generally (I have always asserted in the past that endurance concerns are not tanker-specific and see no reason to deviate from that position). Note that my earlier specific example was actually referring to an /SR scrapper.
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I'm thinking generally and understanding where you're coming from.
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However, if you are going to play the game and see content past the first few levels then you have to watch your endurance. It defeats the purpose of an endurance bar to do otherwise.
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This is a non-sequitur, I'm afraid. It is perfectly possible to have an endurance bar (or a similar resource) simply to restrict behaviors that are out of the ordinary, such as making the DPS of a perma-hastened character unsustainable.
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That's my fault, I was trying to be as concise as possible but cut too much out of my statement. What I meant is, if you want to continue to see content past the first 20 levels then you have to manage your end. But this is the case of every game to limit all out careless, monotonous, destruction as you've described.
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Acquiring attacks as you become them and use them is as normal as it comes; but without Stamina, you do not even have enough endurance recovery to sustain two attacks indefinitely. Toggles or a third attack pre-20 can have a rather dramatic effect.
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This is something that would affect all AT's with toggles and attacks at their disposal. Personally I think it has more to do with the static endurance bar, meaning the maximum endurance value does not increase as you level. I believe this (or reduced endurance cost) to be detrimental thematically as it does not indicate increased proffiency in a character's skill as he levels.
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If the player doesn't like it, they should move on to a game that has no endurance, mana, stamina, etc.
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They can do that. However, I very much doubt that players leaving this game for another is a desirable outcome from the perspective of the developers.
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I agree, but I'm not arguing for or against the developers.
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Edit: One of the other underlying problems is of course that the endurance-effectiveness of most powers is pretty similar and follows a rigid formula. This deprives you of the tactics involved in using your powers smartly. Outside of prioritizing AEs over single target effects, there's little reason to prioritize, say, the individual Martial Arts attacks over each other.
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I mentioned this earlier in this post and truly believe this is a major problem.
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What I am saying, to be clear, is that the current endurance model is an example of poor game design. Not with respect to just tankers, but with respect to the game as a whole. It does not fit the genre, it is poorly calibrated, and it is at its worst during the period when you want to sell players on the game.
Forced downtime is generally anathema for MMORPGs. It is not even specific to gaming -- HCI research has pretty clearly documented why forcing users to wait (say, because of a slow-loading website) leads to frustration and in a commercial context can easily lose you customers. That is why normally forced downtime is only introduced with good cause: Because it increases immersion (such as travel through the world), as a penalty for failure (recovering from a team wipe, for example), or something similar. During normal play, it is generally minimized, because it leads to user frustration and in the worst case to canceled subscriptions.
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Forced downtime in limited quantities isn't so bad. Now back to what I was saying... and I undertand that it may appear I am on both sides of the fence but in all honesty, I don't believe catering to new players is what's best. However bad design should be fixed across all AT's and levels.
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I never said it was good design, the fact that a very large portion of toons have stamina may or may not prove bad design. I said that doing something about endurance should affect all AT's at level 20, not just tankers. And if indeed it an issue with tankers alone, then it should affect tankers of all levels, not just below level 20.
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I may not have expressed myself clearly enough -- I was speaking more generally (I have always asserted in the past that endurance concerns are not tanker-specific and see no reason to deviate from that position). Note that my earlier specific example was actually referring to an /SR scrapper.
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However, if you are going to play the game and see content past the first few levels then you have to watch your endurance. It defeats the purpose of an endurance bar to do otherwise.
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This is a non-sequitur, I'm afraid. It is perfectly possible to have an endurance bar (or a similar resource) simply to restrict behaviors that are out of the ordinary, such as making the DPS of a perma-hastened character unsustainable.
Acquiring attacks as you become them and use them is as normal as it comes; but without Stamina, you do not even have enough endurance recovery to sustain two attacks indefinitely. Toggles or a third attack pre-20 can have a rather dramatic effect.
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If the player doesn't like it, they should move on to a game that has no endurance, mana, stamina, etc.
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They can do that. However, I very much doubt that players leaving this game for another is a desirable outcome from the perspective of the developers.
Edit: One of the other underlying problems is of course that the endurance-effectiveness of most powers is pretty similar and follows a rigid formula. This deprives you of the tactics involved in using your powers smartly. Outside of prioritizing AEs over single target effects, there's little reason to prioritize, say, the individual Martial Arts attacks over each other.
What I am saying, to be clear, is that the current endurance model is an example of poor game design. Not with respect to just tankers, but with respect to the game as a whole. It does not fit the genre, it is poorly calibrated, and it is at its worst during the period when you want to sell players on the game.
Forced downtime is generally anathema for MMORPGs. It is not even specific to gaming -- HCI research has pretty clearly documented why forcing users to wait (say, because of a slow-loading website) leads to frustration and in a commercial context can easily lose you customers. That is why normally forced downtime is only introduced with good cause: Because it increases immersion (such as travel through the world), as a penalty for failure (recovering from a team wipe, for example), or something similar. During normal play, it is generally minimized, because it leads to user frustration and in the worst case to canceled subscriptions.