AE has caused a resurgence of the word "Healer"
Everything I've read has said the aggro cap is 17. Where'd you get 16?
I'll admit I was guilty of pulling over the aggro cap a bit, early in my career. There's nothing in-game that tells you there's a cap so I think it's not that surprising that a lot of players aren't aware of it. Generally speaking taunt/aggro is really confusing and poorly understood. The Tanker version of "healer" is "tanker with taunt" (or "stone tank", but that's another issue) where many people think that "taunt" is uber when it's really just a useful but limited utility ability.
Also, YMMV, but I've found that the groups that can melt 54's still melt 52's even faster and get better returns, at least for tickets.
Yep, most people don't understand the 'Need for Speed' in a good farm. It doesn't matter if 54s give more, when I can kill 52s twice as fast.
As for the limits on taunt, I was with a stone tank that kept wondering why the team was dying cus he was agg-ing two groups at once "for more xp". He was surprised when I told him about the aggro cap (and he was 42lvl).
But tonight, on Justice AE.... once again I heard the cries of "Need Healer for AE Boss Team" about a dozen times with varies TLs. One of the teams even had two fire/kin trollers and a D3 on it, to which I could only wonder why the leader thought he needed a Emp on top of those heals. Ok, I know all about the great buffs a emp defender can bring to a team but that's no reason to hold up everyone for a power set that isn't really needed.
/Empaths can turn three people into Jesus, one person into God, and everyone else into the twelve apostles.~Angry_Citizen
Don't you know that discussion of power selection/slotting can ONLY be based on hearsay, rumor, idle speculation, and bald-faced lies??!? ~Elf_Sniper
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On the one occasion thye both died, TricklLaid down an Oil Slick to ignite a burn the corpses for good, but Dark used it to rez them both.
It was stunning
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A crayola jpeg of this event must be created, STAT! But change it to a stampede of flaming zombie horses.
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INTERESTING FACT: The whole using an oil slick to rez with howling twilight was made popular when BABs was observing testing of the revised hamidon and the raid TPed all the corpses behind a rocked and used the combo to rez the entire raid in one go. BABs was so shocked that he crapped himself so hard that he ripped the space time continuum opening a portal back to the Rikti world and causing Ouroboros to exist.
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I'll admit I was guilty of pulling over the aggro cap a bit, early in my career. There's nothing in-game that tells you there's a cap so I think it's not that surprising that a lot of players aren't aware of it.
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Also, CoH gets a lot of returning players. Thus, you end up with people who are veterans, but who haven't been on the game since the aggro cap was introduced.
You will find non-noobs asking "obvious" questions sometimes, because they're asking about something that was added/changed since they were last on the game -- changes like the caps, the IO system, how to get to new zones, not knowing or understanding the new powersets, etc.
qr
Healing is pretty valuable if you are fighting all boss spawns, especially 54's. That isn't to say it is more valuable than other buff/debuff, but it tends to be the most tangible effect, so people gravitate toward it.
As for people talking about the "speed" others are going and judging them, well that's just ridiculous. Are lvl 54 boss spawns an exploit? Are they some of the hardest mobs in the game? Do they give rewards in proportion to the mob type? High risk, High reward. WAI.
Whatever brainless idiot sold Positron the idea of "reckless driving" that he so readily latched on to has done a lot of damage to the game. Every Joe and his dog now think they have the authority to determine player and developer intent and that they have been deputized to act upon it.
It's pretty much the curse of any Defender AT that comes with a standard "heal other" type power. This is mainly due to the fact that people are now doing Boss Farms, which require atleast some type of heal. As you will be taking tons of damage. Generally speaking the majority usually outweighs the minority. So expect to keep seeing "need healer" broadcasted. I try to explain to greenhorns that defenders also come with a buff and debuff set. but I seriously doubt they're going to listen to anything and old vet says.
Secondly, this very fact is what seperates the "smart" players , from the "only one way to win" players.
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I know these people existed before. But why do they ALL have to come to the surface at AE? I'm getting tired of explaining that ANY type of Defender can be just as effective, even more effective in most cases, than an Empath. I've been asked "Do u heal???" when joining an AE team on my FF/Rad. And I've seen countless Rad/* and Kin/* overlooked because the leader "Wants a healer." What the hell? Is AE killing the Defenders?
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What server do you play on?. I'm on Guardian mostly, and have gotten my Rad/Dark and Kins/Rad to lvl 36+ on AE teams. So I'm guessing its one of those situational things.
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Well, Defender board, what's there to do other than roll an Empath? =/
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Not true, you can actually tell the team your on to give you a chance and see for themselves, or run your own AE teams. I notice people tend to listen to "he who posseses the star", so just make sure your the leader and the sheep will do as you say...as sad as that is.
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Whatever brainless idiot sold Positron the idea of "reckless driving" that he so readily latched on to has done a lot of damage to the game. Every Joe and his dog now think they have the authority to determine player and developer intent and that they have been deputized to act upon it.
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Hit the nail on the head with a sledge.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
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I do the same thing. If I have a slot to spare, an Empath is a wonderful insurance policy. I'm not so arrogant as to pretend that everything always works perfectly and we'll never need heavy healing.
Edited to add:
Seriously. Empaths are wonderful for when things go wrong. I won't take an Empath before a Bubbler if our team for some odd reason is devoid of other Defenders, but if there's an empty slot an Empath is good way to round out any team.
It's the difference between a team that goes "woo, we just barely survived that" and moving on, and the team which wiped. Then that team has to spend 5 minutes listening to some control freak Rad or Kin telling them they died when everything went because they didn't act as good puppets should. They believe as if everyone has nothing better to do then make sure they're doing whatever their flavour of Defender wants them to do, and nothing could POSSIBLY go wrong if everyone would just do what they say when they say it.
Anyone who starts that "You can't take a healer!" crap gets kicked no questions asked for exactly that reason. These people are of no benefit to the team unless everything always runs smoothly. When something goes wrong, these people are the first to whip out and load up the blamethrower.
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Just to hit a few points on this post.
Yes, stuff does happen. However, knowing that stuff can hit the fan and getting a character for if/when that happens seems to be poor planning in my mind. Sure, a good Empath can contribute to a team, as mine does. However, the *need* for a healer with 3 characters already able to do a heal of some sort means that the fan hitting healing need is covered, unless you are over pulling aggro consistently or just a really bad time.
From when I've ran team, it always seems to be maybe once or twice per two or more missions (roughly three or four). Roughly being the key word. Sometimes it is more on having a large group of the team not working with each other. That being said, if a couple people are KO'd for however long, since some power sets can heal in mid battle and several sets have self rez, just refocus yourself and carry forward. It's been a long time since I've had a pug team be completely wiped without a major team goof, to which it's everyone's fault to some extent.
Defenders with shields are useful, but they also have other powers in their set to help keep the team safer or work more effectively to have the enemies drop faster (Got to love the ultimate Debuff... death). The one's without shields have even more of this safer or quicker philosophy. Dark's to-hit debuff, safer. Storm's Freezing Rain, quicker. Each defender offers something not completely unique to the team. Several power sets have shields, several have +recovery, heals, etc.
Empathy, as it stands, is the best healing set. It has three heals, and a rez. However, it has other things to it as mentioned above me (posts, not quote). If an Empath is only using the heals, then they aren't doing as much good to the team as they could be doing. That's at least my philosophy when I play my Empathy/Psi. With teams that only need the buffs, and since they are long recharge times, I use my Psi blast for controls, as soft or hard per power. On teams that need my ability to heal more readily, I do so. It's based on your team's needs. A team with a kin, a sonic, and two rads are probably not going to need my healing; however, I'm still going on strong with my buffs if my Empath is on my team. On another defender, I'll go about with what the team needs me to do.
I don't complain about dying, mostly because when I play, regardless of the character I'm playing, I'm aggressive. Should Defenders be aggressive? That's up to personal tastes and the Defender's ability to control their aggro. If I manage to get killed, that's alright. XP debt won't last forever, especially now with Patrol XP. Plus, if it just happens I push too hard near the fan for myself, then that's my own fault. Sure, there's bad players of all the ATs, but that doesn't mean that even on a good team that stuff can't hit the fan. Does this mean a Empath is needed? I don't particularly think so.
Have I ever turned down a Defender from joining my team? No, unless the team was already full. Regardless of their power sets, Defenders are useful. I mostly get annoyed when you get the tanks that yell for sb or if it does hit that the team didn't have the heals focused on him. To me, it is a team effort, we all live together or all wipe together. Sure small hiccups happen, since it's on a random generator for to-hit rolls and the like. Sure, you can have a tank that's soft capped defenses, with a Empath back up, and if all the enemies roll really well, the tanker is still going to fall down.
The only thing that gets me is the puppet comment. No one is a puppet in my mind. Play as you go, roll with the punches is my general motto. This means, when I play my Empath, I don't yell to gather for RAs, AMs, or the like, I will toss anyone who demands SB to the wolves, and I don't call out my anchors. Sure, they may fall, but it'll recharge and I can toss it onto onto another target.
Do I ever blame another for a wipe, especially in the chat? No. Stuff happens, that's life. Sure, the blaster might of gotten a second group, the tanker might of missed a boss when getting the aggro, or the defender/controller might of miss prioritized their buff/debuffs at the wrong time. Anyone shooting off blame for basically anything will be told to stop, then after that will be kicked from the team. Defender, Controller, Blaster, Scrapper, or Tanker, I don't really care. We're on a team together having fun and enjoying ourselves. As soon as that stops happening, me as team leader, needs to fix it. If that's giving strategical advice for a certain pull or kicking a person from a team, as the leader I'm not afraid to do so.
Edit: Somehow I ended in the wrong thread...
Re-edit: Oh... this was the right thread. Nevermind my previous edit.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
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INTERESTING FACT: The whole using an oil slick to rez with howling twilight was made popular when BABs was observing testing of the revised hamidon and the raid TPed all the corpses behind a rocked and used the combo to rez the entire raid in one go. BABs was so shocked that he crapped himself so hard that he ripped the space time continuum opening a portal back to the Rikti world and causing Ouroboros to exist.
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I remember that.
Its a perfect (non-exploitative) example of how players can push limits and find things far faster than the Dev team can.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Everything I've read has said the aggro cap is 17. Where'd you get 16?
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It probably is 17 and I'm just too used to saying 16 at this point 
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I'll admit I was guilty of pulling over the aggro cap a bit, early in my career. There's nothing in-game that tells you there's a cap so I think it's not that surprising that a lot of players aren't aware of it. Generally speaking taunt/aggro is really confusing and poorly understood. The Tanker version of "healer" is "tanker with taunt" (or "stone tank", but that's another issue) where many people think that "taunt" is uber when it's really just a useful but limited utility ability.
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Oh yeah. Nothing kills me more than watching a tank taunt guys right next to him while I'm using LBE or ET to pull a guy outside the group off of a squishie (while sitting in a saturated invinc).
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Also, YMMV, but I've found that the groups that can melt 54's still melt 52's even faster and get better returns, at least for tickets.
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I think for tickets you are accurate. I prefer 54's for exp. Heck, most 54 maps I hit the ticket cap before we get 1/4 of the way through.
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kinetics def sonic defender rad defender /rad controller
we invited a tank... "we are gonna need a healer."
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I do the same thing. If I have a slot to spare, an Empath is a wonderful insurance policy. I'm not so arrogant as to pretend that everything always works perfectly and we'll never need heavy healing.
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No team needs "Heavy Healing" whatever that's supposed to mean (since apparently Transfusion, Radiant Aura, and Mutation don't' qualify?). The team you quoted really doesn't need "Heavy Healing." It's good to go. Just fill the 8th slot with a warm body, don't hold up the show for no reason.
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Edited to add:
Seriously. Empaths are wonderful for when things go wrong.
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Lots of sets, including Empathy, can be wonderful for when things go wrong. Vigilance doesn't give defenders a monopoly on panic buttons.
StormyDarkness:
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Empathy, as it stands, is the best healing set. It has three heals, and a rez.
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Highest number of powers != best. Especially when two of the powers, HO and AP, are kind of crummy and redundant. (AP being the crummier of the two for defenders, HO being the crummier of the two for controllers, playstyle-dependent of course.) And the rez isn't that great either--Howling Twilight, Power of the Phoenix, and Mutation rez and so much more, Empathy Rez is more of a slightly nicer version of Resuscitate.
Empathy is hella good at regen buffing though, and for teaming with squishies, especially squishies with moar Empathy. Also curiously good at tanking if you're weird like that.
*puts Healing Aura on auto and goes AFK to grab popcorn*
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Just fill the 8th slot with a warm body, don't hold up the show for no reason.
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I see that a lot, where a team forming for a task force has 6-7 people already and could pretty much breeze through it with what they already have but the person with the star is stuck on their "must have" to fill the final spots.
Sometimes they're holding out for empathy but just as often it's kinetics or tank or brute or rad or whatever.
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... due to the fact that people are now doing Boss Farms, which require atleast some type of heal.
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True. Still, 54 boss farm teams are intricately minmaxed chimeras. It's a little misleading to single out just one head of the beast (hp buffing) without mentioning the seven other equally required pieces.
Also 54 boss farm teams give me pre-purple patch flashbacks. Remember in the not-so-good old days how debuffs were regarded as worthless because they scaled down to insignificance against deep purples? Yeah, it's kind of like that. Lolissue14darkmiasma = Lolissue1darkmiasma. Look for "all debuffs (and mezzes) underperforming all buffs (and heals) against the game's most rewarding content" to rear its ugly head again in the defender issues thread.
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... due to the fact that people are now doing Boss Farms, which require atleast some type of heal.
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True. Still, 54 boss farm teams are intricately minmaxed chimeras. It's a little misleading to single out just one head of the beast (hp buffing) without mentioning the seven other equally required pieces.
Also 54 boss farm teams give me pre-purple patch flashbacks. Remember in the not-so-good old days how debuffs were regarded as worthless because they scaled down to insignificance against deep purples? Yeah, it's kind of like that. Lolissue14darkmiasma = Lolissue1darkmiasma. Look for "all debuffs (and mezzes) underperforming all buffs (and heals) against the game's most rewarding content" to rear its ugly head again in the defender issues thread.
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This.
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Empathy, as it stands, is the best healing set. It has three heals, and a rez.
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Highest number of powers != best. Especially when two of the powers, HO and AP, are kind of crummy and redundant. (AP being the crummier of the two for defenders, HO being the crummier of the two for controllers, playstyle-dependent of course.) And the rez isn't that great either--Howling Twilight, Power of the Phoenix, and Mutation rez and so much more, Empathy Rez is more of a slightly nicer version of Resuscitate.
Empathy is hella good at regen buffing though, and for teaming with squishies, especially squishies with moar Empathy. Also curiously good at tanking if you're weird like that.
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I'm not saying it's the best defender set, nor that it doesn't do regen or recovery buffs per AB and RAs, but it's like attack chains, you can cycle through them and if someone has spike damage or you allow the tank to sap some health away while you blast, Absorb Pain is great. Otherwise I tend to call it good of Healing Aura, for the team having light damage, and spot Healing Others when needed. The fact they have three heals, in comparison to the one or two (in the case of Thermal), means that it can get better heals out.
If you are asking who's the best healing set, Empathy is the best in comparison. Do I think this is the best or only defender method? No. Do I believe that a Empath sitting and rocking the aura and not buffing via Fort, AB, or RAs is a good Empath, much less Defender? No. You have 9 powers for a reason, if you're not using them, why have them? Play something that you'll get more millage out of.
Healing isn't the only form of mitigation, and I highly recommend to anyone to take those other forms and use them often. However, I also tend to offer the suggestion to take the healing power, in case the stuff does hit the fan. However, when Absorb Pain can heal 1.5 times (I'm not a number person, so I don't know exactly) more healing, then have two more healing powers, it is much better at healing in comparison.
As for rezzing, it's just one more insurance policy. Even when healing, stuff still happens and people drop. Sure, Dark's Rez is technically the best, in my opinion, and there's nothing wrong with any of the other rezzes; however, they don't have the other three heals to back it up.
So as far as sheer green numbers are concerned, Empathy wins. Do I think there's a lot that can be done across all power sets to reduce (to a great degree) the amount of healing needed that one heal power is all that is needed? Yes. Give me a group of 8 Defenders/Controllers any day and we'll hardly need any green numbers. The only times green numbers are *needed* are when things start to hit the fan. No one can really stop those moments, but I don't think that means you need an Empath for those moments. Most of the time, spamming any of the other heals will work just fine (naturally while doing something else during the recharge) during those crunch times.
I disagree with the need for Empaths on teams and that Empaths should only heal, but don't disagree with Empathy being the best at healing compared to the other power sets. Sure, give me a whole lot of Regen and Defense, and I'll be happy. Just don't discount Empathy's actual healing power when the idea of healing power is in question.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
I don't have numbers to prove but I really have the impression that lvl 52 boss farms are better both for tickets/min, influ/min and xp/min because they are so much faster to defeat than 54's.
The funny thing is, far from empaths being the most-desired defender (or controller secondary) in AE farms, especially boss farms, it's become kinetics. I remember years ago that kinetics was pretty much only regarded with favor by particularly knowledgeable players. Now all of a sudden teams are learning what kinetics can do. My kinetics defender has suddenly become popular.
Well kin has been popular since forever in farms redside.
Hasn't fire/kin controller always been the farming build?
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... due to the fact that people are now doing Boss Farms, which require atleast some type of heal.
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True. Still, 54 boss farm teams are intricately minmaxed chimeras. It's a little misleading to single out just one head of the beast (hp buffing) without mentioning the seven other equally required pieces.
Also 54 boss farm teams give me pre-purple patch flashbacks. Remember in the not-so-good old days how debuffs were regarded as worthless because they scaled down to insignificance against deep purples? Yeah, it's kind of like that. Lolissue14darkmiasma = Lolissue1darkmiasma. Look for "all debuffs (and mezzes) underperforming all buffs (and heals) against the game's most rewarding content" to rear its ugly head again in the defender issues thread.
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Only one problem with this theory. Dark does just fine against level 54 boss spawns. By just fine I mean stand there in the middle of them spamming miasma goodness while nearby spawns are chain pulled into the fray and the team kills everything without missing a beat. Of course dark does have a substantial heal to smooth things out on top of the debuffs. Neither would be sufficient by itself but the set as a whole performs just fine.
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Hasn't fire/kin controller always been the farming build?
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not ALWAYS.
fire/fire tanks pre GDN, aggro nerf and ED.
even now. some other builds (arch/MM come to mind) are a little better for farming that fire/kins but they are probably the easiest to farm with.
Every AT has its extremes.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
Hilariously, in the new bubble farms, heals are completely useless.
Im actually thinking about making a guide for the first time in Five years to introduce newbies to the world of defenders. Why you really want that OTHER defender on your team...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Today I was in Atlas AE, and saw this broadcast - "54 bosses team L 4 healer good healer"
I was laughing so hard, didn't even make fun of him. Pretty much, any "healer" that heals.... is a good healer, but I could be wrong.
/Empaths can turn three people into Jesus, one person into God, and everyone else into the twelve apostles.~Angry_Citizen
Don't you know that discussion of power selection/slotting can ONLY be based on hearsay, rumor, idle speculation, and bald-faced lies??!? ~Elf_Sniper
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Yeah, going after 54 bosses is a pet peave of mine. As a tanker the 54's are more challenging and can be more fun but I almost always get better tickets/xps from 52's. I try to explain this to groups but they always seem to think that bigger numbers means its better.
Another pet peave is that, as a tanker, I like to be on damage heavy groups because I know I can keep a lot of aggro. However, eventually someone will get aggro and die. The problem is that sometimes I'll get yelled at for that.
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A few pet peeves here;
54's are better if you build a team to melt them;
Teammates that don't understand that 16 is the cap for agro should be shot;
Tanking characters (note: I do not say tankers) that don't actively manage the size of the group should be shot.
/end comment. shoot dead horse.