AE has caused a resurgence of the word "Healer"
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Define too fast. For one of my 50s, I leveled off of just TFs and teaming with good players in, according to the game, 40 hours of played time, give or take goofing around time. Before the last batch of XP smoothing. Before AE. Before i9. I've read one person say "56 hours is too fast imho" among others that say 200 hours is too fast.
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Define 'too fast'? Ok, then try this definition: If your contacts all refuse to talk to you because you've out leveled them you quite possibly leveled too fast IMO. And I do find that some of my characters DO level too fast. I keep getting a brand new contact, and they are already out leveled. Relying on flashback to do arcs because you leveled past all the port oaks contacts while still running your missions in mercy for example is quite possibly leveling too fast. It was even more true before flashback got added.
About 'bad players promoting bad players', farming/PLing encourages the bad players because they don't have to do anything to level.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Define too fast.
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Hmmmm.....When the AE expansion was first introduced I didn't pay much attention too it frankly. Then I got a blind invite on one of my master minds at level 12. I figured what the heck try it out and see what its like. Keep in mind I had essentially ignored it until this point so I didn't realize the primary point to AE was for farming. 
We entered the mission and I proceeded to go from level 12 to 18 in under ten minutes. I'm not sure of a decent definition of "too fast" but a level every 1.5 minutes on average certainly felt that way to me. I actually felt like I had cheated or something.
Since the efforts of the devs to "reform" it I have seen no significant changes to this. The broadcasts in Atlas may be a little less blatant but the direct tells I have, rarely, gotten are very clear about it.(The reason they are rare is because I have a no farming comment in my search entry.)
I tried it out just this evening again after getting an invite. Thought maybe it will work out ok. Fat chance. This time it was a very thinly veiled farm. Basically a remake of the old Drek farm. My search comment is now "No Farming, Power Leveling, or AE".
Sadly, We cant pick and choose who can and cant go "too fast". For Vets who have played through content and just want new characters, do they still need to slow down? Of course n00bs are gonna form from the lack of "training" from just running AE, but I honestly would hate to see it go, because I DON'T want to have to run contact missions and such to level up.
Back to the actual topic. I understand both how effective debuffers, and healzorz can be. I really dont mind running without a healer, but I'm not hardcore enough to skip a healer lol, as others seem to be.
But, I have ran many 54 boss farms. And sometimes just debuffs dont cut it. My brute is soft capped for melee/ranged.. and he still gets hit pretty hard, and its nice to see some large green numbers over my head. In general, I DO prefer debuffers, since they are an excellent addition to the team, but I also cant hate on healers, because I know they have a nice roll also.
One of the biggest reasons I don't farm more is because every time I go to atlas park to start one I end up explaining game mechanics to people. It amazes me how little attention the average player pays to game mechanics.
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Define too fast.
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Hmmmm.....When the AE expansion was first introduced I didn't pay much attention too it frankly. Then I got a blind invite on one of my master minds at level 12. I figured what the heck try it out and see what its like. Keep in mind I had essentially ignored it until this point so I didn't realize the primary point to AE was for farming. We entered the mission and I proceeded to go from level 12 to 18 in under ten minutes. I'm not sure of a decent definition of "too fast" but a level every 1.5 minutes on average certainly felt that way to me. I actually felt like I had cheated or something.
Since the efforts of the devs to "reform" it I have seen no significant changes to this. The broadcasts in Atlas may be a little less blatant but the direct tells I have, rarely, gotten are very clear about it.(The reason they are rare is because I have a no farming comment in my search entry.)
I tried it out just this evening again after getting an invite. Thought maybe it will work out ok. Fat chance. This time it was a very thinly veiled farm. Basically a remake of the old Drek farm. My search comment is now "No Farming, Power Leveling, or AE".
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Not all AE arcs are PL farms. I have one called Rise of the Poisoned Fist, posted with my in game global of @Poison Bloom. It's story centric and focuses on a plot being done by my main villain.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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man our weekly "healer" threads aren't what they used to be.
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It doesn't have to be empathy but you do want some form of healing along with buff/debuff against level 54 boss spawns. Otherwise, the few hits that do get through are going to wear people down.
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yeah, FF and Cold totally needs heals in order to protect a team. /sarcasm
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FF or Cold in that particular situation, with no heals on the team are going to be watching a lot of people die. Been there, seen it. I really find it baffling that people get so indignant about healing as a game mechanic. It has a place, along with buffs, debuffs and everything else.
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man our weekly "healer" threads aren't what they used to be.
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It doesn't have to be empathy but you do want some form of healing along with buff/debuff against level 54 boss spawns. Otherwise, the few hits that do get through are going to wear people down.
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yeah, FF and Cold totally needs heals in order to protect a team. /sarcasm
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FF or Cold in that particular situation, with no heals on the team are going to be watching a lot of people die. Been there, seen it. I really find it baffling that people get so indignant about healing as a game mechanic. It has a place, along with buffs, debuffs and everything else.
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It's not that we don't think healing has it's place in a team. It's the teams that ONLY want healing, and assume every freaking buff/debuff set MUST have a heal or six. This is what the 'healer' mindset demands. It wants empaths who don't know what Fortitude and Clear Mind are, and that go for medicine pool to be a better 'healer' (cause they get another single target ally heal and another rez).
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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It's not that we don't think healing has it's place in a team. It's the teams that ONLY want healing, and assume every freaking buff/debuff set MUST have a heal or six. This is what the 'healer' mindset demands. It wants empaths who don't know what Fortitude and Clear Mind are, and that go for medicine pool to be a better 'healer' (cause they get another single target ally heal and another rez).
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I'm glad someone brought this back to topic. Farming discussion has its place in this thread.
'Healers' and those looking for them are not limited to AE farms and both existed before i14 and more will appear as new players join the game.
Just yesterday I ran a team on my DA tank in *gasp* an AE farm twice. I invited an empath each time. They received an invite because they were were above lvl 30 and because they were breathing. I had to tell each empath that they could save the clicks if they didn't cast clear mind on me and use it as a priority on the controllers since they might not have protection. Both said ok but only one of them understood what I meant. The other guy kept double stacking CM on me and hovering directly over me casting heal aura. My tank has two heals and HA is the last thing I need. It just goes to show some people are willing to learn given the opportunity and some don't.
Some horses never ever never die.
Sure they die, but people just dont stop beating on them.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
In this instance they're beating on one dead horse to kill another one. Is that like dividing by zero?
The problem is we're defenders. Three of our primaries can raise the horse from the dead, so we can beat it to death again. The second horse just means the Darks can rez one off the other.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
On the one occasion thye both died, TricklLaid down an Oil Slick to ignite a burn the corpses for good, but Dark used it to rez them both.
It was stunning
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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On the one occasion thye both died, TricklLaid down an Oil Slick to ignite a burn the corpses for good, but Dark used it to rez them both.
It was stunning
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A crayola jpeg of this event must be created, STAT! But change it to a stampede of flaming zombie horses.
joined an AE team one night.
me: kinetics def
brother: sonic defender
another rad defender and a /rad controller.
we invited a tank...he said thanks for invite....i chose the mission...then he said....
"we are gonna need a healer."
...and he had the 42 month vet badge.
You know, that horse everyone beats... it has to be an undead horse. Otherwise I don't see why it needs to be beaten so often to keep it down.
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joined an AE team one night.
me: kinetics def
brother: sonic defender
another rad defender and a /rad controller.
we invited a tank...he said thanks for invite....i chose the mission...then he said....
"we are gonna need a healer."
...and he had the 42 month vet badge.
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I do the same thing. If I have a slot to spare, an Empath is a wonderful insurance policy. I'm not so arrogant as to pretend that everything always works perfectly and we'll never need heavy healing.
Edited to add:
Seriously. Empaths are wonderful for when things go wrong. I won't take an Empath before a Bubbler if our team for some odd reason is devoid of other Defenders, but if there's an empty slot an Empath is good way to round out any team.
It's the difference between a team that goes "woo, we just barely survived that" and moving on, and the team which wiped. Then that team has to spend 5 minutes listening to some control freak Rad or Kin telling them they died when everything went because they didn't act as good puppets should. They believe as if everyone has nothing better to do then make sure they're doing whatever their flavour of Defender wants them to do, and nothing could POSSIBLY go wrong if everyone would just do what they say when they say it.
Anyone who starts that "You can't take a healer!" crap gets kicked no questions asked for exactly that reason. These people are of no benefit to the team unless everything always runs smoothly. When something goes wrong, these people are the first to whip out and load up the blamethrower.
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It's the difference between a team that goes "woo, we just barely survived that" and moving on, and the team which wiped. Then that team has to spend 5 minutes listening to some control freak Rad telling them we died when everything went because they believe as if everyone has nothing better to do then make sure they're doing whatever their flavour of Defender wants them to do.
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But maybe having some awareness about the capabilities and how some defender type play is a good thing. If you're a tank and can aggro half the map and live - then great go for it. If your a squishy that might need heals, then dont grab alot of aggro from non-debuffed spawns if your playing without an empath. A little common sense and a minor adjustment of your playstyle can cutdown on alot of dirtnap time.
Knowing how all the defender powersets work and why they work is important, eventually most everyone figures this out. A team that works with it's defender(s) and controller(s) is a team that just flat works better.
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It's the difference between a team that goes "woo, we just barely survived that" and moving on, and the team which wiped. Then that team has to spend 5 minutes listening to some control freak Rad telling them we died when everything went because they believe as if everyone has nothing better to do then make sure they're doing whatever their flavour of Defender wants them to do.
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But maybe having some awareness about the capabilities and how some defender type play is a good thing. If you're a tank and can aggro half the map and live - then great go for it. If your a squishy that might need heals, then dont grab alot of aggro from non-debuffed spawns if your playing without an empath. A little common sense and a minor adjustment of your playstyle can cutdown on alot of dirtnap time.
Knowing how all the defender powersets work and why they work is important, eventually most everyone figures this out. A team that works with it's defender(s) and controller(s) in defender mode is a team that just flat works better.
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Yup, it's why I said odds are I wouldn't take an Empath over a FF if we lacked in other Defender types. However, there's a difference between a Defender who likes other to be aware and one who freaks out at the mere thought that they could ever POSSIBLY need heavy healing, and anything that goes wrong can't POSSIBLY be their share of blame. There are seriously people so arrogant and ignorant of how the game works that they believe if you even TAKE an Empath you're a bad player.
Of course when things go wrong it's everyone else's fault and they don't realize that these (hopefully rare) instances are when an Empath shines brighter then all the rest.
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It's the difference between a team that goes "woo, we just barely survived that" and moving on, and the team which wiped. Then that team has to spend 5 minutes listening to some control freak Rad telling them we died when everything went because they believe as if everyone has nothing better to do then make sure they're doing whatever their flavour of Defender wants them to do.
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But maybe having some awareness about the capabilities and how some defender type play is a good thing. If you're a tank and can aggro half the map and live - then great go for it. If your a squishy that might need heals, then dont grab alot of aggro from non-debuffed spawns if your playing without an empath. A little common sense and a minor adjustment of your playstyle can cutdown on alot of dirtnap time.
Knowing how all the defender powersets work and why they work is important, eventually most everyone figures this out. A team that works with it's defender(s) and controller(s) in defender mode is a team that just flat works better.
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Yup, it's why I said odds are I wouldn't take an Empath over a FF if we lacked in other Defender types. However, there's a difference between a Defender who likes other to be aware and one who freaks out at the mere thought that they could ever POSSIBLY need heavy healing, and anything that goes wrong can't POSSIBLY be their share of blame. There are seriously people so arrogant and ignorant of how the game works that they believe if you even TAKE an Empath you're a bad player.
Of course when things go wrong it's everyone else's fault and they don't realize that these (hopefully rare) instances are when an Empath shines brighter then all the rest.
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Hey a good empath is great! If i want an empath I don't want one just for the "healing," I want one for Fortitude, the RAs, clear mind, and AB. If all the empath is going to do is provide massive healing I would rather take ANY other defender, controller, or a tank for support. Rocking the aura is not going to save the team if that's all they do. And I've seen a sad number of players who advertise themselves as healers only rock the aura, and at that point, they're useless.
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
I agree with a few other people, that a lot of people are just calling defenders healors (personal I perfer dealers ((as is dealing out debuffs, buffs, heals etc.))) Yesterday I was playing my DD on a PUG and did a good job debuffing flooring the to hit etc. Later on that day the same person who recruited me to that pug wanted me to join saying please I need my healer.
"...well I have wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor and I am happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P Dowd (from the movie Harvey)
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I agree with a few other people, that a lot of people are just calling defenders healors...
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I've run into this occasionally on my sonic. The part that bugs me is that when I join a team and see someone comment about the team now having a healer it implies a fundamental misunderstanding of what I do. Yes I understand it can also be viewed as an opportunity to "educate" people. After a while though it just gets tedious.
Personally I think the whole AE 'healer' annoyance is more of a symptom then the actually disease. I've been on way too many AE teams that believe they must be fighting 54 lvl purple bosses in every mission or something is wrong. Most times, you see the team fall apart after the first or second mob because the pug leader isn't smart enough to figure out you need to keep a eye on the power sets of those you invite.
Of course, you have my favor... make a team without even having a ae mission in mind. Or picking a mission that isn't conducive to farming. Like last night, got on a map that had mobs with spine powerset.... my troller really liked being poisoned and having his defense at a -20.
I've even thought about putting together a guild for those folks.
/Empaths can turn three people into Jesus, one person into God, and everyone else into the twelve apostles.~Angry_Citizen
Don't you know that discussion of power selection/slotting can ONLY be based on hearsay, rumor, idle speculation, and bald-faced lies??!? ~Elf_Sniper
Yeah, going after 54 bosses is a pet peave of mine. As a tanker the 54's are more challenging and can be more fun but I almost always get better tickets/xps from 52's. I try to explain this to groups but they always seem to think that bigger numbers means its better.
Another pet peave is that, as a tanker, I like to be on damage heavy groups because I know I can keep a lot of aggro. However, eventually someone will get aggro and die. The problem is that sometimes I'll get yelled at for that. I can only do so much and most of the time when someone dies it's because someone pulled another mob and put me over aggro cap, someone is doing a lot of knockback and pushing bosses out of my taunt aura or someone messes up my pull and spreads out the mob. The thing is, we'll probably live, we'll probably wipe the xp debt in about a minute and we can kill a lot faster if I'm aggressive with pulls and team makeup. That, however, doesn't stop a minority of players from [censored] if they take a short dirt nap.
For the record I make an effort to call out any flavor of Defender for contributing to the group and while I'd agree that a little healing is pretty nice just to cover for slips in aggro or defender coverage ... I'll tell groups that I don't really need a healer (again, the group just needs to accept that there may be a few dirt naps in between great xps).
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It's boring
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To you.
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it promotes people not learning how to play their character
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Bad players promote bad players. And there is a deeper jab in this message.
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it causes people to level too fast, thus missing all the content in the game
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Define too fast. For one of my 50s, I leveled off of just TFs and teaming with good players in, according to the game, 40 hours of played time, give or take goofing around time. Before the last batch of XP smoothing. Before AE. Before i9. I've read one person say "56 hours is too fast imho" among others that say 200 hours is too fast.
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It promotes poor teaming skills, after all why learn to work with the team when one or two team members do all the work so you can level quickly?
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See #2, #2 again, then #3 and #2 at the same time.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~