AE has caused a resurgence of the word "Healer"
Outside of a Hamidon raid just about everything any this game can be done by any hodge podge of AT's as long as everyone has a clue how to play.
Did a Numina last week with 4 tanks, a warshade and a earth/storm controller. No real synergy on the team, no heals (I don't have O2), no buffs outside of Steamy Mist and the TF was a cake walk.
Though I have been on some really awful AE PUGs where I can see they think they need a 'healer' just because they were so awful at the game.
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As a player of both a kinetics defender and a /kin controller, I'm often surprised by how often players yell for SB when they've already got it. I'm a pretty diligent buffer, so I will SB mid-fight if necessary; people seem to notice the run speed between fights, as opposed to the buff icon and recharge when it's available during the fight.
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Originally Posted by PhroX
I probably wasn't clear. I'm not saying Kins should have to take SB. But these kins inevitably do have it. Yet thy don't use it. That's what annoys me.
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Actually had a conversation that went like this on an AE.
(after a wipe)
Me: Hmm could probably use more debuffs or buffs.
Dark Corruptor: I am debuffing.
Me: I know you're debuffing just probably need a someone else ontop of that to help us along.
Ignorant AEr: Dark sucks, we need a healer.
Me: Dark doesn't suck, it's got tar patch which makes the groups easier to kill, it's got Darkest Night to help with the -tohit, it's got Howling twilight for the mass rez and -regeneration.
Ignorant AEr: all you need is a healer.
Me: gah..Sonic buffs my resistance, which being a fire secondary brute is a godsend, forcefields buff defense, of which I have none to start out with due to being a fire secondary brute, Dark and Rad can turn the mobs into mewling kittens, Pain Domination is more than just heals it's got very good buffs in it as well, hell any of the corruptor secondaries are good...
In broadcast the team leader is continuing to ask for a healer...
Me: *swears and quits team*
I did neglect to mention that Dark also has the best heal in the game...probably should have done that too before quitting...
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I don't so much notice having it mid fight, but I definately notice when it wears off. Everything suddenly takes so much longer to recharge, particularly early on, when you have less other sources of +rech.
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Originally Posted by Amberyl
As a player of both a kinetics defender and a /kin controller, I'm often surprised by how often players yell for SB when they've already got it. I'm a pretty diligent buffer, so I will SB mid-fight if necessary; people seem to notice the run speed between fights, as opposed to the buff icon and recharge when it's available during the fight.
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Not on the AE team I was on the other night. Tar Patch was repeatedly carefully placed between the boss spawn and the body of corruptors.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Me: Dark doesn't suck, it's got tar patch which makes the groups easier to kill,
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One of the reasons I stay away from farms... Actually, most of these AE stories are exactly why I don't AE farm. At least in the old days of farming you had one person with the farm mission that was competent besides myself. Then again, that could just be me and my hopes of intelligence which most AE farms tend to miss.|
Originally Posted by Reptlbrain
Not on the AE team I was on the other night. Tar Patch was repeatedly carefully placed between the boss spawn and the body of corruptors.
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It's one of the reason people hate Storm, there's so many bad ones, I'll stay away from the AE farms. I'll take the slower, funner, and generally more intelligent version of leveling.
By the by, I loves me some Storms.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
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I think most competent people still do AE farms because it wasn't so bad AT FIRST. It got bad when AE started creating its AE babies in force (read: people that really should have slow-leveled to get the hang of their powers). Now you've got people that think an Empath is the only worthwhile Defender and Stone is the only worthwhile Tank. Sometimes you get a Rad that broadcasts themselves as a "healer" (lolwtf?).|
Originally Posted by StormyDarkness
One of the reasons I stay away from farms... Actually, most of these AE stories are exactly why I don't AE farm. At least in the old days of farming you had one person with the farm mission that was competent besides myself. Then again, that could just be me and my hopes of intelligence which most AE farms tend to miss.
It's one of the reason people hate Storm, there's so many bad ones, I'll stay away from the AE farms. I'll take the slower, funner, and generally more intelligent version of leveling. By the by, I loves me some Storms. |
By the way, I love me the Stormies too =D
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Re: the empath and rad examples, was there some period in time when these were not the case? People never needed AE to be clueless.
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Originally Posted by electric_emu
Now you've got people that think an Empath is the only worthwhile Defender and Stone is the only worthwhile Tank. Sometimes you get a Rad that broadcasts themselves as a "healer" (lolwtf?).
By the way, I love me the Stormies too =D |
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Totally agree with you there. As long as its not a STF, LRSF or Hamidon anything's doable. I was having a rather heated argument with an AE team as to why Stone tankers aren't as great as one might think. One of them said, "when you're using Granite, you don't have to worry about what you're fighting." I laughed, clearly they had never heard of PSIONICS before. Another said "they can handle anything, whereas Willpower and Invuln need billions of influence to handle anything." Again, I laughed. They had been doing a few too many S/L boss farms to realize that AVs like Mother Mayhem existed (granted, Invuln probably wouldn't do so hot either =P). AE babies flock to sets that are easy to be good (read: Stone tankers).|
Originally Posted by Hobo_Healer
Outside of a Hamidon raid just about everything any this game can be done by any hodge podge of AT's as long as everyone has a clue how to play.
Did a Numina last week with 4 tanks, a warshade and a earth/storm controller. No real synergy on the team, no heals (I don't have O2), no buffs outside of Steamy Mist and the TF was a cake walk. Though I have been on some really awful AE PUGs where I can see they think they need a 'healer' just because they were so awful at the game. |
Moral of the story is this: Now that AE is forced into having all-boss missions as the only kind of farm, people think that easy-to-be-good sets (Stone, Fire/Kin, etc) are the only worthwhile sets because a noob WP tank can't handle what a noob Granite Tank can. The AE is forcing even great players to assume that everyone is a noob, which is death to non-Granited tankers. The same is true with Empathy and Kinetics. Empathy 'cause it gives the "we need healzor NAO!!" mentality and Kinetics because it fixes the people who don't even know what Stamina is at level 45 (I've seen WAY too many high level Blasters, Tanks and Scrappers that didn't take Stamina when they REALLY should have). Not to mention its a good buffbot for Granite -_-
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That's kinda the whole point of this thread. People were always clueless, but the AE makes it A LOT worse.
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Originally Posted by Happy_Thoughts
Re: the empath and rad examples, was there some period in time when these were not the case? People never needed AE to be clueless.
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I get tells from AE monkeys all the time while on my fire/storm asking for a healer. I say "sure" and join the team. People stop dying and the group moves faster. I don't have 02 boost on my bar most of the time.
I automatically translate "healer" as "someone to keep us alive". All of my toons are healers in some way or another under this logic.
When I played WoW I was a healer on my mage. Tank yells "stop pulling aggro". I respond "I was healing you". Same thing here.
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That's a good idea, some people are too stupid to realize they're not being "healed." However, even the best of Controllers, Defenders and Tankers can't keep the worst teams alive. The other day, I was on my WP tank and was taking it one group at a time. Was spamming Foot Stomp, Taunt and Fireball as well as tabbing targets to pull aggro. Yet we had a Blaster who died at least once every fight. No one complained, and the Blaster was laughing the whole way. But a little part of my Tanker heart dies with my teammates. Then the Scrapper part of me tells it to shut up and keep fighting =P |
Originally Posted by Jorlain
I get tells from AE monkeys all the time while on my fire/storm asking for a healer. I say "sure" and join the team. People stop dying and the group moves faster. I don't have 02 boost on my bar most of the time.
I automatically translate "healer" as "someone to keep us alive". All of my toons are healers in some way or another under this logic. When I played WoW I was a healer on my mage. Tank yells "stop pulling aggro". I respond "I was healing you". Same thing here. |
And to be on topic, that's why people think "healers" (read: Empathy) are necessary. Even an inexperienced Empath can be of use on a bad team (they've got Rez, right?), but an inexperienced Storm, for example, will drive even a great team insane.
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Don't sweat it. That's why the devs gave us Flame Mastery. Debt is just another nuke to us.|
Originally Posted by electric_emu
... we had a Blaster who died at least once every fight. No one complained, and the Blaster was laughing the whole way. But a little part of my Tanker heart dies with my teammates.
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| Even an inexperienced Empath can be of use on a bad team (they've got Rez, right?), but an inexperienced Storm, for example, will drive even a great team insane. |
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I'm always willing to give anyone suggestions to help out the teams. They just have to, you know, be willing to take a few pointers and then do them. That's my greatest distinction between a "good" Defender and a "bad" Defender. I'm willing to give suggestions on any power sets, and will gladly hear out suggestions when I'm playing a power set, since new tactics is always fun to me.|
Originally Posted by electric_emu
And to be on topic, that's why people think "healers" (read: Empathy) are necessary. Even an inexperienced Empath can be of use on a bad team (they've got Rez, right?), but an inexperienced Storm, for example, will drive even a great team insane.
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I'll take a inexperienced Storm who'll listen to suggestions over a bad empath who believe only heals is the way to go and won't listen to any suggestions to make themselves better any day of the week.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
Comments from a non-AE noob ...
Hey there, boiught this game about 5 months ago, shortly after AE was put in the game. I tried it out [AE] but got burned too many times. Poor leadership, poor team dynamics, you name it. The 'farms' or whatever seem rather boring, and some friends wanted levels so they would run them over and over, boring. It seems people just want to 'power level' or something in AE. Sure, go for it. Personally I find a reasonably well put together team doing regular story arcs will net some great xp, and the chances of getting teamed with better players goes WAY up.
As you can tell my experience in AE has not been too positive. As far as defenders go my opinion is formed from joining task forces, or being invited to mission teams.
As a new player I did not know what to expect out of a defender being on the team. From my limited experience I have found that a defender will quite simply 'make a team better'. When I see a defender join the team I think of it as sort of a surprise in the bottom of a Cracker Jack box. I usually think Defenders are going to 'do something for me'. This means they will stun/sleep/disorient/slow the enemy, kill the enemy, debuff the enemy, maybe have a sheild for me, maybe have a heal.
Sure getting healed is great, but as I said to a friend of mine 'healing is only good if you have taken damage'. I feel pretty invulnerable with I have one of those buffs on! (Dont need a heal if you hardly take damage). I dont care if a defender (or any other AT for that matter) does not take a power to buff me. Just because you picked a defender/whatever does not mean you *have* to take certain powers. There are plenty of tanks that don't take taunt.
I have been on teams where the lead has said "we need a ..." Sure a balanced team is great, I have lots of fun on teams where things are balanced, but *need* not only a specific AT, but a specific *POWERSET*?? IMO, If you feel you always "need a", make you should "make a"...
I have just made a defender, my first one! I had a grav/kin troller and loved the /kin thing, so I made up a kin/ defender as I am familiar with the powerset. Also I saw a kin/ defender on this Task Force, and wow, he blew me away. I had to make one! So I picked a kin/sonic .. my question for you ... am I a healer????
My life would be happy if people just stopped using the word "healer" all together.
MrSuzi, your Kin/Sonic is a buffer/debuffer with a heal. Actually...that's an amazingly painful (to the bad guys) combination of sets, too. Damage Cap + Resistance Debuff = Ripped Apart Bad Guys.
Try an all-Empath team sometime...well...all GOOD Empaths. Rolling Forts, AMs, RAs and attacks make for an unstoppable team! Green Machines FTW!
http://www.repeat-offenders.net
35218 - Shocking Developments - Where's Gameamp!?
44395 - Walkin in a Winter Wonderland - Fun and Soloable Holiday Arc.
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I have a heal with kin?? |
Originally Posted by RonJ73
... your Kin/Sonic is a buffer/debuffer with a heal ...
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I like to think of transfusion as a -regen with a nice side effect.
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Originally Posted by MrSuzi
Comments from a non-AE noob ...
Hey there, boiught this game about 5 months ago, shortly after AE was put in the game. I tried it out [AE] but got burned too many times. Poor leadership, poor team dynamics, you name it. The 'farms' or whatever seem rather boring, and some friends wanted levels so they would run them over and over, boring. It seems people just want to 'power level' or something in AE. Sure, go for it. Personally I find a reasonably well put together team doing regular story arcs will net some great xp, and the chances of getting teamed with better players goes WAY up. As you can tell my experience in AE has not been too positive. As far as defenders go my opinion is formed from joining task forces, or being invited to mission teams. As a new player I did not know what to expect out of a defender being on the team. From my limited experience I have found that a defender will quite simply 'make a team better'. When I see a defender join the team I think of it as sort of a surprise in the bottom of a Cracker Jack box. I usually think Defenders are going to 'do something for me'. This means they will stun/sleep/disorient/slow the enemy, kill the enemy, debuff the enemy, maybe have a sheild for me, maybe have a heal. Sure getting healed is great, but as I said to a friend of mine 'healing is only good if you have taken damage'. I feel pretty invulnerable with I have one of those buffs on! (Dont need a heal if you hardly take damage). I dont care if a defender (or any other AT for that matter) does not take a power to buff me. Just because you picked a defender/whatever does not mean you *have* to take certain powers. There are plenty of tanks that don't take taunt. I have been on teams where the lead has said "we need a ..." Sure a balanced team is great, I have lots of fun on teams where things are balanced, but *need* not only a specific AT, but a specific *POWERSET*?? IMO, If you feel you always "need a", make you should "make a"... I have just made a defender, my first one! I had a grav/kin troller and loved the /kin thing, so I made up a kin/ defender as I am familiar with the powerset. Also I saw a kin/ defender on this Task Force, and wow, he blew me away. I had to make one! So I picked a kin/sonic .. my question for you ... am I a healer???? |
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Originally Posted by MrSuzi
I have a heal with kin??
I like to think of transfusion as a -regen with a nice side effect. |
Also, based on your comment about Transfusion, you aren't a "noob", you are, if anything, just a "newb" (newb = newbie, still learning the ropes, but willing to learn. noob and/or n00b imply someone who just won't listen.)
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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Can we cut it out already?, By definition every class in the game is a "Defender", heroes are in turn defenders of justice. Yes the devs couldn't think of a name for the class. I guess priest was too archaic and medics or doctors where too definitive. Either way, if you come with a heal, you're going to be deemed healer, if you come with buffs...do the math. So on and so on.|
Originally Posted by ShadowSlicer
My Empath Defender is by far my favourite character, but I can't get over how everyone refers to him as a "Healer". It seems that everyone has generalized Empaths with healers when healing is only half of what makes them so unique. Less experienced players seem to overlook the pressence of the multitude of other powers Empaths possess. In fact, I feel I haven't done a good enough job at Defending if I have to heal. I prefer to protect my teamates rather than heal up the ones I didn't. So if you hear people calling out for a healer inform them of the much more important services you can provide.
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Don't change decades of MMO terminology just too further boost you're ego. CoH teams will go on an prosper without dealing with semantics. Yes you're defender comes with blasts, and my tank comes with melee, I would love to see the face of the players on my team if I said I would only perform like an actual tank(moving slowly and hitting every 20 secs) due to the "title" given.
"Defender" is a vague word to use, yes it was a huge mistake by the devs. But don't make it seem like certain AT's aren't healer's, thats just obtuse. Every MMO lives by the holy trinity ; Tank, Dps, Healer.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
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Erm, nope. My kineticist, stormie, dark, and radiation defenders all "come with a heal" but I have never advertised myself as a "healer" or responded to people looking for one. If you choose to define yourself based on one power available to you, that's your choice, but don't try and make everyone else do so. While I have and use heals as called for, they are the least of what I bring to the team.|
Originally Posted by Lacrymosa
Either way, if you come with a heal, you're going to be deemed healer, if you come with buffs...do the math. So on and so on.
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By powers available, all defenders are better classified as damage dealers since they all (including empaths) have far more damage powers available to them than healing powers. If this sounds absurd to you, consider how absurd it is to label people based on a singleand in many cases their least effectivetool in their toolbox.
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| "Defender" is a vague word to use, yes it was a huge mistake by the devs. But don't make it seem like certain AT's aren't healer's, thats just obtuse. Every MMO lives by the holy trinity ; Tank, Dps, Healer. |
Perhaps I'm just playing the game wrong, but I have NEVER, not once, needed a dedicated healer (in fact, those advertising themselves as such tend to be unneeded and largely dead weight in my experience). Come to think of it, I somehow manage to play just fine without a tank or DPS-focused characters along, too. Could it be that CoH actually doesn't live by the holy trinity? That's right, it doesn't. Some players live by it, but the game itself never has.
It's my opinion that anyone who feels that a "healer" is needed should just pick up the medicine pool and stop looking for someone else to babysit them.
My scrapper's a healer - she's got 6 powers that restore health, plus a rez. 
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Actually its probably as accurate as it can be. Since several sets in the Defender AT have no heals at all. In several other sets the heal is either a very minor aspect or linked to a debuff. Its really only one set, Empathy, were the heals have a significant place and even with that set the buffs are at least as important if not more important.|
Originally Posted by Lacrymosa
Don't change decades of MMO terminology just too further boost you're ego. CoH teams will go on an prosper without dealing with semantics. Yes you're defender comes with blasts, and my tank comes with melee, I would love to see the face of the players on my team if I said I would only perform like an actual tank(moving slowly and hitting every 20 secs) due to the "title" given.
"Defender" is a vague word to use, yes it was a huge mistake by the devs. But don't make it seem like certain AT's aren't healer's, thats just obtuse. Every MMO lives by the holy trinity ; Tank, Dps, Healer. |
Since every other MMO lives by the Tank, Dps, healer trinity it causes *problems* in CoH/V since the game is designed in such a way that buffs/debuffs are just as powrful....well actually in some cases more powerful then healing. e.g. I was once asked to leave the team when on my Sonic/ right after I was invited. Apparently the team was taking too much damage and needed a healer.
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Originally Posted by Lacrymosa
Every MMO lives by the holy trinity ; Tank, Dps, Healer.
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City of Heroes does not live by the holy trinity. See the Repeat Offenders, we have proved that the holy trinity is not needed in this game many times over.
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Originally Posted by Hobo_Healer
City of Heroes does not live by the holy trinity. See the Repeat Offenders, we have proved that the holy trinity is not needed in this game many times over.
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Yes I know, I've addressed this issue in countless defender rants. What makes CoH so fun is the "special teams" that can accomplish missions. Either all bubble, Rad, Dark etc defender teams, Controller teams etc. It should go without saying, that many people have accomplished many things in CoH, from all scrapper tf's to all blaster ITF's.
That being said, it's not my original point. The "holy trinity" makes certain events easier, but its not definitive (excluding all boss farms). Of course the term "defender" is too broad. And since they're not deemed Priests, people decide that they aren't "healers". But one thing will always remain in MMO's, and thats the support class, which usually has heals. In CoH that would be the emp obviously. But I have healed with a kins, a dark, and a Thermal. Yes I know they don't call us healers.
One should assume the role when there's plenty of damage on a team. You're job is to heal when its needed. I understand you made a bubbler or a Rad and deemed yourself a "buffer" to be different. In the end you're either a buffer or a healer. Let's not try act like MMo's don't need "healers", thats just erroneous.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
Shocking