G_Tanker

The old content really needs a revamp. The new content is fantastic. Tip missions might have too much reward for too little effort.

Hi Drechs,

I'm retooling my d/f/p and I was curious if you could post the build or whether someone can direct me to a thread with your build. I'm thinking 45% S/L/E/NE defense and have got that part sorted out, but I'm curious about other power picks.

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G_Tanker: That's against the average PUG that groups with us ... numbers wise however I can never match the DPS output of a Scrapper (or Blaster). Player wise, I tend to be a little more focused then the average PUG apparently.

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Ah, glad to see my skepticism in that thread was justified then. Still, I would not be surprised if shields/dm could outdamage some scrapper combos even after IO's - say, take on a spines/sr at single target damage, I think you'd win. Fire/fire/pyre certainly outdamages some scrapper combos.

Tackling the Tanker<->Scrapper and 2TankerRequired2Pug sidepoints;


Kruunch;

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True, but I'm not seeing Tanker stackability as the issue you are. However I do see an issue with Scrappers encroaching on our territory but not vica versa. You can make a Scranker, but it will never be a Scrapper. However the reverse cannot be said. I can (and have) made Scrappers that can totally replace a tank in all circumstances. The largest reason being that as a Scrapper, I can achieve defenses/mitigation good enough to withstand the agro cap. Without the agro cap (and I think it should be removed entirely for all ATs) then a Scrapper can only be taken so far.

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Er... that's kind of odd given just a thread over you wrote: Here's my L50 SD/DM Tanker build (per request). He was main tanking AE Boss farms (go go gnomes) in his 30s and was out performing Scrappers/Blasters (by and large) in DPS by his 40s.............Finally, I'm comparing the damage (subjectively of course) to the Scrappers I play with (of various makes and models) and my own Scrappers. This build doesn't out damage *every* Scrapper combo (of course) and really shouldn't out damage a really well built Scrapper, however more times then not (and especially against more single target oriented Scrappers) I pull away from Scrappers over the course of most boss fights.

FWIW, I can certainly think of tanker builds that are more damaging than various scrapper builds in various situations -- for instance, I was rather cheesed in the RCS farming days that my friend's fire/fire/pyre tanker (IO'd to the gills) was outfarming my broadsword/dark build (IO'd to the gills) -- but Rikti bosses have heavy lethal resist and no fire resist. If you compare apples to apples (or as close as you can), the proper AT always wins. But yes, scrankers can replace scrappers. As far as a your scrappers being truly superior to tankers "in all circumstances" ... my eyebrow's at the ceiling aboot now. That's a big generalization to throw out there.

It's mostly a social construct that people don't advertise damage spec'd tanks as damage dealers - the same way people pigeonhole emps as 'healers'. I have definitely invited a tank to a team purely to do damage (fire/ss) ... amusingly he thought, as the only tank on the team, he was supposed to tank, but he wised up pretty quickly.

Anyhoo. I don't think changing the agro cap upward is a solution (if anything I might recommend having the other 4 AT's go down to 12 - I don't disagree with the notion that only tanks should be able to hold highest number's attention, but I wince at upping it more than 17 given how much agro I can already manage on my fire melee tankers), but then again I was one of the people shortly after launch going, "Oh man. This is massively broken. It is getting nerfed so hard." about herding a map at a time. Took a while, but it happened.

Nihilii;

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If anything, I'd argue 2 tankers is almost a necessity in some teams (nothing is necessary obviously, but if your teammates die every few minutes then they'll get bored and leave). Take a PuG running an AE lieut/boss mission set for 8 for example, if you aggro 2 groups at once some squishies are guaranteed to die. You could say "pull one group, don't aggro two groups at once" but that'd slow down the team. You could say "if squishies were really good they wouldn't die", but we're talking about a PuG and most people just aren't that good.

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I agree insofar as yes, AE definitely makes 2+ tanker teams more desirable than ever before (at least post-agro cap:17 change). I disagree with the rest of your statement based on my experiences. Since AE came out I've run five characters to 50 purely leading or playing in pugs, and at no time were tanks required at all, let alone two of them. I can think of several memorable pugs that had no melee whatsoever where I was actively pulling 3 groups of 53-54 bosses at a time. Furthermore I find it rather odd the notion that a second group will wipe a team... support chars besides tankers can handle a spawn's agro (in a variety of ways) on their own, depending on level disparity and powerset. I do know you're talking about PUGs, but I've spent the last 2 or so months playing PUGs quite a lot in the leveling game.

Short Answer: Yes.
Long Answer: You might run into trouble in certain situations.

Mine is a blast to play.

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And question 2. If they buffed the Defender's ability to solo on these less capable soloing sets, would you object ? Or be happy that your defender brothers got some loving from the Devs ?

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After 10 years in MMO's (18 if you count MUDs etc) I'm very skeptical that any buff can possibly come without a nerf in hand, and I like the AT for what it does well right now

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I dont EXPECT to solo like a scrapper. But My EMPATHY Defender is not even CLOSE to as capable as my RAD defender at HEROIC missions.

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I also know that while some sets are just terrible solo, particularly buffing sets, they're also among the most desired on teams in lowbie play. Emp? Seriously? "HEAL0R! HEAL0R!!! HEAL0RRRR!" Everywhere I turn I see people asking for Healz0rs. And they mean empathy. Taking a powerset where most of the powers are used on teammates and trying to make it a solo powerhouse is... arrrgh (Heal Other, Absorb Pain, Fortitude, Clear Mind, Adrenaline Boost, Resurrect - how is soloing on a set where 6/9 powers are meant exclusively for teammates a good idea?!??! )

There's "what I want my character to be" and then there's "game balance" and the devs tend to go with the latter or we'd just have UO again with tankmages everywhere ... anyhoo, g'nite, gl, hf.

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G_Tanker: Sorry, I wasn't clear. It would be a self only buff for the Tanker. For example, solo or soo tanking: no benefit (sans the end reduction tactic). Two Tankers: Self Buff x1. Three Tankers: self buff x2, etc.

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Interesting notion, and certainly would make all tanker teams a bit more intriguing. Of course, let's look at the +300% cap, the fact 95% comes from SO's, and postulate that with 8 tankers running this (if we go with +dambuff) with perhaps +10% per tanker you get +70% damage per tank all the time. Which is sort of nice, until you run into a kin.

I still like the idea of gauntlet (ie: I pissed this off, now it's focused on me and not defending itself from you) getting a -res component to all the folks it effects. Even as small as -5 or -10% would make a bigger impact on team play, and if it was set so that the same effect didn't stack from the same tanker (ie: I combustion, gauntlet, then fsc, re-gauntlet, but no stack) you'd basically be getting a damage boost to hitting anything that is already taunted on the tanker. Frankly I'd prefer to see a -20% resist debuff and -10% defense debuff for 5 seconds to all targets impacted by gauntlet per tanker (not self-stacking, but multi tankers could stack it, and remember the purple patch comes into play). (( And yes, in my scenario the 8 tanker team would be pretty darn scary, I realize ))

Until they 'fix' fulcrum shift (which, like rage, is likely never to happen) the idea of +dambuff seems shortsighted for an offensive tank-style buff, particularly if the goal is stacking them on a team.

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G_Tanker

I dont mind being quoted, but be careful how you paraphrase what I posted. You changed the essence of the sentence by leaving out the first clause.

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Actually I was responding exactly to that, I just hate quoting walls of text. I'll illustrate if you want.

Your "Level various chars 1-20 with NO POOL POWERS, NO IO'S" suggestion would show what you're intending to show, but is silly in its limitations. Pool powers are there for a reason, IO's are part of today's game. At one point a year or two back I recall a post that practically mandated taking air sup by 8 on a soloing controller and respec'ing at the 24 tf before dual builds existed. No twinking is fine, but it's not hard to make money on low level toons, so it's another silly notion to restrict purchases - not that a sub 20s' char has much to purchase.

Your suggestion would INDEED illustrate JUST what Ultimo is complaining about and the rest of us are calling fine : Some sets and AT's are solo inclined, some are not. But all can get the job done. Or to repeat myself;

<ul type="square">[*]All Can Solo.[*]Some Do It Much Better Than Others.[*][u]The Game Is Not Balanced Solely Around Solo Play.[u][/list]

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Short Version
The basic gist is that Tankers would have multiple (mutually exclusive) Tanker Tactics toggles available, each one would provide different benefits while other Tankers are around.

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So... paladins? Been a while since I played WOW, mind you, but same effect as auras iirc.

I mostly agree with your points; caveats being...

<ul type="square">[*] The endurance woes are not unique to tankers, they're just hit harder than most in the pre-22 world. Post SO levels it gets much easier. Slotting for end it gets much easier. Etc.
[*] Tankers are actually a better pick in the ae world than they were in the radio mission world simply because there's enough hard hitting content (typically in boss farms) that having another someone with high innate defense is a good thing for an extra spawn or low buffer teams. I still view them as a low tier pick, but in PUGs I join I see 2 (or 3!) tankers much more often. Of course, the Dev's probably didn't intend to increase their value through boss farms in AE...[/list]
Also, I want to requote this as it is an excellent point:

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I kind of like your stances solution, but feel that its already covered a bit with dual builds. The most obvious use for dual builds for most Tanks would be a solo build (attacks slotted for end redux and dam, defensive powers underslotted) and a team build (less damage, better defences, one attack swapped for Taunt).

Switching builds is do-able often enough to account for variable team composition during one play session, but has the extra hassle of visiting a trainer and setting it up in the first place.

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Defender powersets suffer from what Ultimo is expressing, but there is a serious disconnect with CERTAIN power sets in their ability to solo, especially at lower levels. If that is how the game is intended to be, so be it, but I want to play a HERO. Sometimes you act alone, sometimes you band together for a great event.

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Again, COX is not balanced around the solo game. Some sets and AT's are solo inclined. Some are not.

All *CAN* solo intended content on heroic, with varying degrees of efficiency.

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OBVIOUSLY, there are powers in the set that do some mitigation. I didn't think I had to spell it out, I was under the impression that you all knew something about the subject.

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You also made the generalizing whine that defenders can't defend themselves as someone working with PFF.

If your written logic has gaps, don't complain when you're called on them.

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Buffing Defenders suffer a disadvantage that no one else suffers, not even debuffing Defenders.

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Perhaps they suffer this disadvantage because buffs aren't given the short stick by the purple patch the way debuffs are. Perhaps they suffer this disadvantage because they are 'the most team friendly' and 'least solo friendly' AT. Perhaps they suffer this disadvantage because the title of the AT is "Defender" not "Self Buffing Azz Kikr".

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G_Tanker

I've said that exact thing (I'm posting in a buch of similar threads, and have lost track of where). Tankers and Defenders suffer more from endurance issues because they are forced to use more endurance to accomplish the same ends as other ATs.

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It's like someone designed them thinking they would be the 'defensive' AT's.

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You call my build a MAN build, but the reality is that I have almost all the powers I can use in both of my power sets. Only Force Bolt isn't in there. The other powers I took actually INCREASE my personal defense, as I have already said.

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I'm glad it's gotten better from when you were bemoaning your solo prowess with both the FF shields that you couldn't use for solo. Still, I'd question tough and weave - solo, you'll never see enough mobs for them to make a significant difference - you can actively mitigate through kb and detention for the same net effect.


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All characters, even Defenders haev to be able to defeat their foes. That's what the game is about.

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You've been whining that it takes you *longer* to kill content than your scrapper. Yet you're still doing it. Defenders have no problem defeating appropriate solo content. Furthermore, any team with a defender on it has a much better chance of defeating team content.

Heck, I took a level 33 shield/fire tanker with *unenhanced attacks* (plus no buildup and only scorch, boxing, sands of mu, fsc, and combustion - none with any enhancements) and killed a +1 boss &amp; cleared a room of +1 lts and mins because I forgot I was still on CL3 while I ran the midnighter arc between farming sessions. Inspirations are fantastic little things, learn to use them.

Let me quote you from near the start of the thread, because your argument is fundamentally flawed:

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My problem is that I'm seeking parity.

That is, if we start from the same starting point, all the classes should be the same. From there Blaster get more offense but pay with less defense. Tankers get more defense, but pay with less offense. Scrappers, having a relative balance are more or less the standard. Controllers have more defense, and pay by having less health. Defenders have less offense, less defense (though this is being debated here) and less health. If we allow that their defense is higher, it's been paid for, either by lower offense OR lower health. As it is, BOTH conditions exist.

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You seem to think parity in this game is balanced around solo play. You didn't know what a force multiplier was. /sigh

If you want a top notch soloing defender, roll the appropriate sets and IO them out. Defenders are not generally solo inclined. If you want "to solo fast and feel like a superhero" ... roll a scrapper or blaster. Heck, blasters get PFF in the 40's. I'm fairly sure the devs won't listen to this wheel no matter how loud you squeak - they're well aware of how powerful defenders are.

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Interesting then, that so many De Fen Der characters can't De Fend themselves...

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Says the guy playing a toon that has access to personal force fields?

Defenders are fine. Vigilance sucks, and should be removed, and Corruptors/Trollers need their static/pet debuffs nerfed appropriately, but defenders are fine.

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Ooh, because you know how much more easily you can defeat a foe while you're in your PFF.

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Weren't you just whining about not being able to defend yourself? Now it's that you want to defeat your opponent... as a "defender" ... ok...

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For example, last night I fought a yellow conn Sky Raider Captain. Defeating him required my ENTIRE endurance bar. I was then forced to PFF and wait for my endurance to recover before I could fight the Wing Raider that was with him. This is with triple slotted Stamina and EndRedx in all powers.

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Played lowbie tankers? Same song different day...

I really am all for replacing vigilance with something marginally useful, but not every character is going to be a solo powerhouse and you really, really want your MAN build to be a solo powerhouse. You still defeated the target, it took forever - sounds like game balance in action to me.

Can't make it this week, but another time.

I could drop tough for kick and get more KC which would free up some other slotting choices. It's actually kind of tempting.

Just FYI I threw this together in a few minutes; I will likely tweak it next time I have a break. Atmo there's no kb prot, tough has 1 slot, etc.

If I give up energy torrent life is much easier hitting th SC... but I love energy torrent. Ponderous musings.

I don't like slotting quills &amp; BA with oblit; too end consuming. I also don't feel like planning around a gladiator IO (I could probably buy one on the cheap or farm for a few days and get one for 1B, but I don't really farm for inf).

You all did stellar jobs of hitting the criteria, tho.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Spines
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Weapon Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Lunge -- KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(3), KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(5)
Level 1: Fire Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(15), RctvArm-EndRdx(17), RctvArm-ResDam(17), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(33)
Level 2: Blazing Aura -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(5), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(7), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(9), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(9)
Level 4: Spine Burst -- Oblit-Acc/Rchg(A), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(11), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), Oblit-%Dam(13), Oblit-Dmg(15)
Level 6: Healing Flames -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Barb Swipe -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(33), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(34), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(33)
Level 12: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Impale -- Enf'dOp-Acc/EndRdx(A), Enf'dOp-Immob/Rng(34), Enf'dOp-EndRdx/Immob(36), Enf'dOp-Acc/Rchg(36), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob/Rchg(36), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob(37)
Level 16: Plasma Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(46), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(48), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(50)
Level 18: Quills -- M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(19), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(21), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(21), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(23)
Level 20: Consume -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(42), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Oblit-%Dam(42), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(43), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 22: Boxing -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(23), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(25), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25)
Level 24: Tough -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Weave -- HO:Enzym(A), HO:Enzym(27), HO:Enzym(27)
Level 28: Ripper -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(29), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(29), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), Oblit-%Dam(31), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 30: Health -- Empty(A), Empty(37)
Level 32: Stamina -- Empty(A), Empty(37), Empty(39)
Level 35: Throw Spines -- Empty(A), Empty(39), Empty(39), Empty(40), Empty(40)
Level 38: Fiery Embrace -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 41: Web Grenade -- Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob/Rchg(A), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob(43), Enf'dOp-EndRdx/Immob(45), Enf'dOp-Immob/Rng(45), Enf'dOp-Acc/Rchg(46), Enf'dOp-Acc/EndRdx(46)
Level 44: Targeting Drone -- Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit(45)
Level 47: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(48), RechRdx-I(48)
Level 49: Build Up -- Rec'dRet-ToHit(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(50), RechRdx-I(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit

Well,

A) It's a rumor... so probably not..

B) Why would they nerf stone? They pay a lot for all that defense and mitigation in Granite.

I can't think of a good reason I'd want a stone tanker along on most teams were there other options available.

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Interesting then, that so many De Fen Der characters can't De Fend themselves...

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Says the guy playing a toon that has access to personal force fields?

Defenders are fine. Vigilance sucks, and should be removed, and Corruptors/Trollers need their static/pet debuffs nerfed appropriately, but defenders are fine.

Depends on your target. Farming what? Solo, Duo, in a team with a tanker or scrapper?

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Man...when sonics join my tf's I jump for joy, go /sonics

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Sadly I jump for joy for */sonic too, but am moderately lukewarm about sonic/* unless we have a serious need for +res.

Also don't forget tohit debuffs get weaker against higher level opponents (100% vs +0, 48% vs +4) while the softcap value remains 45.

I have a ton of debuffers and I regularly take on +4's with them, so I'm not warning you away, just cautioning that if you have a -10% tohitdebuff on the +0 you're fighting, it's only -6.5% on a +3, or -8% on a +2, etc.

Go with a defense set. Shields or Invuln are top for S/L boss farms in my experience.

Fire is just going to get pummeled unless you get it up near or past softcap levels, but if you really wanted to you probably could - the question is it worth the tradeoffs?

Nearly all my toons achieve 70 ft PVE stealth one way or another.

I find it terribly useful.

I also end up dying 2-3 times on new toons just because I forget I'm not as sneaky as usual and get too close

Try Dark/Sonic too.... muahahah.

When the enemy is blue or below (knock them back) or the enemy has -kb protection (no effect).