A side benefit to Going Rogue
By
Alexandria2000,
Posted on: 2009-05-14 14:07 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I believe the most likely "barrier" to switching is going to be content, not penalties. To swtich you have to do something, like rack up enough "evil" points to be accepted in the Rogue Isles.
Based on the survey last fall, I actually expect people with a sufficiently grey/neutral rating to be able to switch back and forth with some degree of ease. Maybe not just walk up to the portal and click it ease, but certainly not dramatic undoing of your character.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I would just assume a villain going rogue would just not have any Patron Powers. A drawback to switching sides.
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I wonder if you can't get patron powers did they create new APP power pools for each one of the archetypes and new Patron powers for all the hero archetypes ?
I feel sorry for Castle if they laid that kind of work on him.
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Copied from the other Thread. This is how I think it will go down as a whole.
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There's an moderate sidez thread on this in the Market forum. In summary of what's there, switching making you level one is a deal breaker. I would not buy that expansion unless praetorea was really impressive on it's own.
Why?
Because becoming level 1 again is not switching. It's starting a new character. Stripping me of my IOs, money and badges is this even more clearly.
So this version of "switching" is effectively deleting my character and starting over.
Why would I want to do that? Why would I want to do that with an AT/powerset I already played on a server I'm already on? That's not worth "switching" sides on. I would just create a new character, and I can do that now.
So this expansion would come down to Pratorean content and the ability to create ATs on the "wrong" side. But I already play the game on both sides. While it'd be nice, I am in no way desperate to create ATs on the other side.
What I want out of the expansion is the ability to switch existing characters and play around with the "alignment" stuff they're adding. If that stuff involves effectively deleting long-standing characters, they can shove it, and I do not believe I'd be alone in that perspective. As such, I think that would be an attrocious design approach.
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Okay, where are they getting that info from? If they're assuming they're getting themselves worked up over nothing more then their own paranoia. If they're actually read an announcement that tells them what, please link the announcement.
The other thing: Keeping your APP and PPP power if you switch. personally, I think it'll depend on 2 things. 1) When you switch and 2) How fully you switch.
They've said this new expansion will explore the shades of grey between Hero and Villian. So this leads me to beleive they will be implimenting the "Morality compass" that had been talked about some time back. I'll try and find the info on it, but it was more then 2 years ago so no promise. But basically, you didn't just switch. Your hero didn't wake up morning and say "Hey I'm gonna be a villian today" The original talk was about a long process where by action you're percieved morality changed, but it wasn't a constant thing. It was something like demenshining returns. If you needed 100 morality points to change sides, the first recorded act gave you ten, while the second gave you 9 and the third gave you 8 and so on and so forth. If you did something that was against your previous direction in morality you lost points.
What's all this babbling got to do with PPPs and APPs? Simply: If you swap in your mid-tweenties you don't access to your original side Epic pool. If you switch post 40 and have already taken an Epic pool power you don't loose it, but do not get access to the rest of the powers.
If you're 50 and try to change sides, it'll be very hard (hey, if you're a high level criminal who's gone a few rounds with the Vindicators and the Phalanx, do you really think the Heroes of Paragon and gonna say "Hey come on over, I'll grab ya a beer" and Like wise if you're high level Hero do you think the folks of Rogue Isles aren't going to have a few axes to grind on your face?)
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Okay, where are they getting that info from? If they're assuming they're getting themselves worked up over nothing more then their own paranoia. If they're actually read an announcement that tells them what, please link the announcement.
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No one's getting that info. It's a response to people who suggest that the most fair way to enable side switching is to strip your existing characters of levels/enancements/inventory/inf/badges (take your pick).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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How are the Patron Powers granted? I assumed that the Patrons more or less just taught you how to use the powers and how to access their source (like a master wizard teaching an apprentice).
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I don't know that this is actually explained but it makes sense.
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However, if the Patrons just taught you the powers, then I don't see keeping them as a problem if you switch.
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Keeping them isn't the problem. Getting new ones is. What if you're not 40 yet when you switch? Tough luck? While that would make RP sense, it wouldn't exactly be fair. I can see the devs not wanting it to be too easy to switch sides, but not actually discouraging you from ever trying it. The Patron/APPs aren't a game breaker if you don't have them, but they can also be quite an advantage.
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Ya, I can see you not losing any Patron Powers you have if switching to Blue, but not being able to gain anymore. If you're pre-40, tough, you don't get any unless you switch back to Red later in your career.
I also don't think switching will be very easy (I think I'll wear Red today...), but not so hard or character stat changing that it's not tempting to do so.
My bet is that some sort of EPPs will be introduced Redside, and PPPs (Statesman, Sis Psyche,...) will be introduced Blueside and you'll be able to choose from more options. I don't think they'll modify any of the existing PPs
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CoHGO
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CHVR is easier
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I've seen "CoR" used also.
The simplest way would be to just say hero ATs keep the same APPs. Villain ATs keep the same PPPs. No one loses anything. No one gains anything. Still leaves the question on how to unlock the PPPs.
To get them, I could see them just saying to hell with the patron arc to unlock access and make the PPPs work just like the APPs, just for the now-villainous ATs. Leave the arcs still available through the contacts, but there isn't the completion requirement to unlock the PPPs.
Or they could just say the Villain ATs have to go back to the red-side to unlock their PPPs. This depends on how perminant and what all is involved with switching sides, which we don't know any details on yet.
Or they could add some praetorian counterparts (or something along those lines) that if they are on the good side of the line, they take the place of the current patrons and then they provide the good patron missions to unlock identical PPPs with the same powers. Everything else could be identical to unlocking them even except for the contact you go though would look different and the door could be in a different place.
With those options available and, at least to me, seeming very fair to the players, I don't see why they would take the effort to try and have the ATs switch from using different sets of APPs and PPPs because of what side of the line they are on. That just sounds like a needless way to introduct more bugs for not really that big of a gain.
PPPs can still work thematically for heroes since now it sounds like there will be less emphasis on whether its hero vs villain and more just what AT you are. With side switching, no longer is an AT tied exclusively to a morality.
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So, heroes and villains will get to change sides in the new expansion.
Villains are going to need some ancillary power pools for when they turn good.
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Perhaps one of my brutes will become good, and never again assist his old patron Ghost Widow... For all that she was powerful she now holds no sway over him, and he regrets every moment in her service.
He will, however, aid her Praetorian counterpart to the very best of his ability, fighting beside her in the battle against Tyrant and his oppressors... I really hope she still has gloom...
Ok, it might not be like this, but why not?
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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CoHGO
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CHVR is easier
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I've seen "CoR" used also.
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Still sticking with CoX or CoH. X covers them all and it seems marketing is merging CoV and CoH into just CoH lately. CoR doesn't make much sense to me as its been described. CoV was distinctive because while it was the same engine, client, servers, and very closely linked to CoH, it was separate for a while with no cross over. Now its merging. The Going Rogue expansion (GRE?) sounds more to be an addition of features to the existing game(s), merging them together more, and less a new game with even the small separation that CoV had when it was released.
They could always make things equitable by cloning the PPPs, and have them handed out by signature heroes. Different FX, since it's Manticore and Positron teaching you neat tricks now, but functionally the same as Mako and Black Scorpion.
It means a lot more animations will need to be made, but I think it's okay to suggest things that are a lot of work for a retail expansion.
Arc #41077 - The Men of State
Arc #48845 - Operation: Dirty Snowball
Only thing I'd have issue with is how they'll explain (in-game) the Villain PP pets if your character went blue. I suppose they could saw the light along with you and followed as your devoted servant...
Currently playing:
The Domestic: Broom/WP
Shadowhex: Dark Control/Dark Affinity
Defenestration Lass: Grav/Kin
"See, this is what happens when you have to shove all this stuff into your pockets: it's easy to misplace a suborbital warhead." -Arcanaville, on how crowded our power trays are getting lately
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I believe the most likely "barrier" to switching is going to be content, not penalties..
Based on the survey last fall, I actually expect people with a sufficiently grey/neutral rating to be able to switch back and forth with some degree of ease. Maybe not just walk up to the portal and click it ease, but certainly not dramatic undoing of your character.
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This.
Uberguy has pretty much hit the nail on the head. The dev's aren't going to want to "extremely penalize" paying customers for even considering swapping factions. This would not only severely discourage anyone from ever buying their new expansion in the first place, but place more problems on themselves down the road through complaints and lack of profit.
The Morality Compass, which was discussed a very long while back, is the most likely scenario with side-switching. As discussed in the intros for CoH:GR, Heroes and Villains will be able to explore the "grey lines" between "good and evil." Combine that with the Morality Compass, and we can assume that we will not simply wake-up one morning and declare ourselves a "new faction" without having FIRST built up enough either "good" or "bad" points (to put it simply) to declare it. We can even assume that by this statement in the press release:
"Clearly marked missions, in addition to behaviors and decisions made by the player, will move a hero's or villain's moral compass, which could eventually change the hero's or villain's alignment"
Basically, we'll most likely be forced to run a hefty number of "clearly marked missions" in order to gain enough "Morality Points" for us to side switch. The exact number of missions and deeds that we must do are what we don't know. I'm betting that we're looking at a pretty decent amount of time investment required to be able to swap sides though. I'm SURE the dev's don't want people being able to swap sides on an hourly or "at whim" basis.
It might not be several "days" worth of mission hours, but most likely it will be more than just a "couple" quick missions. My guess would be about [u]2-3 Strike Forces worth in time investment[u] for comparison, since it is clearly stated as with enough missions you could "eventually" change your alliance. Eventually in the MMO world can mean a decent amount of time investment in many cases.
I do doubt, however, that you will lose your badges, money, levels, enhancements, etc. There's a chance that we may lose stored "loot" such as salvage/recipes, but even that may not happen as that in and of itself would be quite a severe penalty for any player.
[u]As far as Ancillary and Patron Pools are concerned, my bet is one of two[u]:
A.) We'll either simply "keep" our Ancillary or Patron Pools normally, as it was a time investment the dev's didn't care to apply right now.
B.) Or we will simply be allowed to respec into the new faction's Ancillary or Patron Pools upon side swap. This will either be handled as a "free respec" such as Villains gain when they complete their Patron Arc for the first time (meaning that each time you switch factions, you'll gain a "free faction respec"), or you will simply attain a chance to "respec" your lvl 40+ Ancillary/Patron powers upon side switch, in order to just choose new ones (heroes "may" have to run villain patron arcs).
The Dev's might even make it a "mission" which you'll have to complete in order to recieve your new factions Ancillary or Patron Pools, make it sort of a "Prove yourself to your NEW faction and gain access to a new Ancillary/Patron Pool!" type thing. However, I'm truely betting that upon faction switch, you WILL be granted a free-respec, in similar fashion to how the Villains are currently granted a free-respec upon completion of their Patron Arcs. Afterall, you will be putting in PLENTY of time (more than a regular respec missions worth) to make it a justifiable reward.
Also, I think that our "faction builds" will come into play with the recent ability they granted us to have "2" builds. [u]I don't think, however, that we will be given a total of 4 changeable builds.[u] I think that they dev's granted us the recent ability to have "2 builds" with CoH:GR in mind, and with full intent and preparation for faction swapping. Now, you can have a "Hero build" and a "Villain build" if you swap. It's that simple.
Anyways, those are my "predictions" on the table. Just a head's up, my logic is pretty sound on this 
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They could always make things equitable by cloning the PPPs, and have them handed out by signature heroes. Different FX, since it's Manticore and Positron teaching you neat tricks now, but functionally the same as Mako and Black Scorpion.
It means a lot more animations will need to be made, but I think it's okay to suggest things that are a lot of work for a retail expansion.
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Or they could just make Praetorian counterparts of the patrons.......are there versions? I don't know much of the Praetorian world.
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CoHGO
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CHVR is easier
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Why not just CoR, for City of Rogues ?
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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CoHGO
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CHVR is easier
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Why not just CoR, for City of Rogues ?
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Because there will still be some heroes and villains that don't go rogue?
Be well, people of CoH.
I think to retain balance (whether you agree with whether its balanced or not) they should just unlock all patron powers at level 40 as if you were simply getting epic masteries. I mean for villains on blue side. That way the dev balance of the power selections remains the same, but you can just pick whichever you want with no quest.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
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CoHGO
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CHVR is easier
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Why not just CoR, for City of Rogues ?
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Because there will still be some heroes and villains that don't go rogue?
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How about just CoX? It's worked so far hasn't it?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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CoHGO
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CHVR is easier
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Why not just CoR, for City of Rogues ?
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Because there will still be some heroes and villains that don't go rogue?
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How about just CoX? It's worked so far hasn't it?
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True, but it's dirty and my pristine morality can't tolerate such low brow humor.
Be well, people of CoH.
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CoHGO
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CHVR is easier
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Why not just CoR, for City of Rogues ?
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Because there will still be some heroes and villains that don't go rogue?
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How about just CoX? It's worked so far hasn't it?
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True, but it's dirty and my pristine morality can't tolerate such low brow humor.
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Co* then?
@Demobot
Also on Steam
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CoHGO
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CHVR is easier
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Why not just CoR, for City of Rogues ?
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I will use: CoH/V:GR. I know it is excessive, I know it is detail oriented... but I like colons and I like to be inclusive. And, I don't mind typing either.
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I certainly hope they DO go to the trouble of giving redeemed villains access to the existing hero APPs and vice-versa fallen Heroes, simply because it's more interesting that way. Potential balance issues? Sure, but probably not that many. Case-by-case tweaks could be made.
In fact, I'd go as far as to have existing Patron/APPs on side-switchers done away with by forced respec upon crossing over. You wanna go Rogue? You pick a Patron, just like any other Villain.
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The most logical solution is to disallow any rogue from either patron or epic pools because they are untrustworthy.
Those who think there need to be huge restrictions against using an expansion that is heavily hyped make my brain hurt.
Everybody gets a ton of epics, patron or otherwise, there you go. What is so hard to conceive of?
To let heroes access the pools just add a spy who has stolen knowledge and can teach you how to use it.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
Some people like colons, some like CoX, and some don't like either. We'll see what settles out once Going Rogue has been live for a few months. Even now there's hardly a consensus.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Some people like colons, some like CoX, and some don't like either. We'll see what settles out once Going Rogue has been live for a few months. Even now there's hardly a consensus.
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I just refer to the game as.. City.
I'm thinking of using City/ Rogues when talking about both.. and just continuing to use City when not referring to anything Going Rogue related.. 
J
Still hate the visit Winscott mission- make it dropable, have it give actual exp or remove it altogether. PS- Down knows who you are.
J/ Wilde/ / AIL - Celebrating five years!
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How are the Patron Powers granted? I assumed that the Patrons more or less just taught you how to use the powers and how to access their source (like a master wizard teaching an apprentice).
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I don't know that this is actually explained but it makes sense.
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However, if the Patrons just taught you the powers, then I don't see keeping them as a problem if you switch.
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Keeping them isn't the problem. Getting new ones is. What if you're not 40 yet when you switch? Tough luck? While that would make RP sense, it wouldn't exactly be fair. I can see the devs not wanting it to be too easy to switch sides, but not actually discouraging you from ever trying it. The Patron/APPs aren't a game breaker if you don't have them, but they can also be quite an advantage.
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
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