A side benefit to Going Rogue
By
Alexandria2000,
Posted on: 2009-05-14 14:07 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
What makes you think that swapping side will give access to different powers?
Not saying no, just saying thats a lot of balancing work that is essentially unneeded.
OP has a point. If I'm a good brute at level 40, why would I go back to the rogue isles to work for one of the patrons to unlock the PPPs?
Be well, people of CoH.
The cheap and dirty solution of course would just be to auto-unlock all the patron pools when you hit 40 blueside. In other words, just pretend they are APPs. Not a solution that respects "concept" but then again neither is allowing people to switch back and forth multiple times, yet apparently that's going to be allowed nonetheless.
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
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I've wondered this too. CoHGO will certainly involve some APP/PPP tweaking
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CoHGO
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CHVR is easier
Be well, people of CoH.
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OP has a point. If I'm a good brute at level 40, why would I go back to the rogue isles to work for one of the patrons to unlock the PPPs?
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That's my thinking on the matter.
Depending on how far they take the whole "shades of gray" and what not, this may become inescapable regardless.
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I certainly hope they DO go to the trouble of giving redeemed villains access to the existing hero APPs and vice-versa fallen Heroes, simply because it's more interesting that way. Potential balance issues? Sure, but probably not that many. Case-by-case tweaks could be made.
In fact, I'd go as far as to have existing Patron/APPs on side-switchers done away with by forced respec upon crossing over. You wanna go Rogue? You pick a Patron, just like any other Villain.
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
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My preferred solution would be to just add APPs for villains and some patrons for heroes, but I really don't see that happening.
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My preferred solution would be to just ditch the Patron Pools completely and just give both sides Mastery pools.
Of course I doubt that is going to be what happens, and there would be a lot more that would have to be done.
But I'd love to see about ten different masteries for each AT, so that every set within the AT had a simple concept matching Mastery Pool. Balancing could be a pain, but setting them up shouldn't be so hard considering most of the powers are just grabbed from other sets right?
Yes, I hate the whole "gaining powers from your Patron" concept, I'm biased. 
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Patron for heroes?
Does Statesman grant you Zeus Lightning?
Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?
Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?
Copied from the other Thread. This is how I think it will go down as a whole.
'The logical way this would be done is as follows;
This is a paid expainsion, the Devs have never brought out anything that you have to pay to get that you cant access from level 1, or at least level 5. Ao it stands to reason this will essentially be a new starting contact, endgame contact and anything in between for thoses that buy it.
As it is a paid expansion there will be a limitation to those that didnt pay for it, therefore will not be able to access it. Think the VIP section of Pocket D, now make it probably about 3+ City Zones big (at various stages of Morality) with Good and Evil on either side.
There is no reasonable reason any swapped toon would keep their previous faction's Accolades, badges, infamy, Title or Inf. Point of Fact, it would just make the Badgers go crazy.
Seeing as you CAN always swap back I would imagine any of these things 'Lost' in the swap would be active when you return. Meaning you would only have acess to Villain stuff as a Villain and Hero stuff as a Hero, but nothing will be lost.
With the swap over I would sumise that you would start as level 1, like you just swapped to your second build, and have to retrain to your present level. Which would give you access to 2 builds Hero side and 2 Builds Villain side. As there there is no easy way to merge the economys I caution a guess that this would be the way to go.
This also would mean reformed Villains would lost Patron Powers and have Epic Pool selections instead and Heroes lose Epic Pools and will have Access to Patron Pools (and have to go through their arch to get them heh).
So I would guess this would be a Co-Op'ish area, they might add a PvP Zone to seperate the 2 sides of the fence. But I would Doubt they would make it mandatory for a side swap. They would probably have a Neutral Zone where there is an uneasy truce and where the actual transition from one side to the other would occur.
I'd say Dual Pistols and Demon Summoning would be avialable for everyone though, no reason to limit it to the people who buy the expansion, Id guess they will proliferate Thermal Secondary to MMs for Demon Summoning, a more team focused version of Devices for Fenders maybe and probably proliferate a few more just to make things more enticing to try all sorts of ATs while Side Swapping.
Thats how I'd do it, given the constraints of the game. Who knows maybe they have been secretly working on this for quite some time and done a rebuild of the FX Engine so Power Customisation is possible. This sort of thing would blow CO out of the water.
Yes I aim high, its usually the quickest way to kill things. '
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Yes I aim high, its usually the quickest way to kill things. '
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Aim small, miss small.
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Yes I aim high, its usually the quickest way to kill things. '
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Aim small, miss small.
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If you have to shoot it more then four times, your already dead. I'd be happy with almost anything they bring out, just think this would deliver on the expectation of a paid expansion.
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CoHGO
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CHVR is easier
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What does CHVR stand for?
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CoHGO
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CHVR is easier
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What does CHVR stand for?
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Id caution a guess as 'City of Heroes, Villains and Rouges'
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CoHGO
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CHVR is easier
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What does CHVR stand for?
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Id caution a guess as 'City of Heroes, Villains and Rouges'
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A winner is you!
Be well, people of CoH.
I think that in GRogue former villains will either have to do a patron arc via Ouro, or something like that, or patron pools will just be severed from the patron entirely and villains, like heroes, will be able to choose a pool upon hitting 41.
It don't think they are going to muddy the waters with a new ancillary/patron system.
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I would just assume a villain going rogue would just not have any Patron Powers. A drawback to switching sides.
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Copied from the other Thread. This is how I think it will go down as a whole.
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There's an moderate sidez thread on this in the Market forum. In summary of what's there, switching making you level one is a deal breaker. I would not buy that expansion unless praetorea was really impressive on it's own.
Why?
Because becoming level 1 again is not switching. It's starting a new character. Stripping me of my IOs, money and badges is this even more clearly.
So this version of "switching" is effectively deleting my character and starting over.
Why would I want to do that? Why would I want to do that with an AT/powerset I already played on a server I'm already on? That's not worth "switching" sides on. I would just create a new character, and I can do that now.
So this expansion would come down to Pratorean content and the ability to create ATs on the "wrong" side. But I already play the game on both sides. While it'd be nice, I am in no way desperate to create ATs on the other side.
What I want out of the expansion is the ability to switch existing characters and play around with the "alignment" stuff they're adding. If that stuff involves effectively deleting long-standing characters, they can shove it, and I do not believe I'd be alone in that perspective. As such, I think that would be an attrocious design approach.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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So, heroes and villains will get to change sides in the new expansion.
Villains are going to need some ancillary power pools for when they turn good.
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Way, way back, when side switching was first discussed in earnest (when they added names for the same badges on both sides), Statesman, who was still in charge, suggested that you'd lose EPP/PPPs and have ro respec into PPP/EPPs.
That was ages ago now, so who knows, but that makes sense to me.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I would just assume a villain going rogue would just not have any Patron Powers. A drawback to switching sides.
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Well I guess that would prove once and for all the devs really DO hate villains. 
In all seriousness though, heh, no way would they do this. I don't care what kind of RP sense it makes for villains to lose their Patrons while Heroes keep their APPs when switching side... ain't gonna happen. Not without villains getting something in exchange, like access to hero APPs when they are redeemed.
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
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So, heroes and villains will get to change sides in the new expansion.
Villains are going to need some ancillary power pools for when they turn good.
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Way, way back, when side switching was first discussed in earnest (when they added names for the same badges on both sides), Statesman, who was still in charge, suggested that you'd lose EPP/PPPs and have ro respec into PPP/EPPs.
That was ages ago now, so who knows, but that makes sense to me.
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I've only leveled one Villain past 40, and I skipped the Patrons (that Villain served No One!), so I don't know the backstory behind the PPPs...
How are the Patron Powers granted? I assumed that the Patrons more or less just taught you how to use the powers and how to access their source (like a master wizard teaching an apprentice). I never really thought the Patrons were the source of the Powers themselves (as if they were mini-Gods or something)
If the Patrons are the font from which the Powers flow, then I can see losing them if a Villain switches (like a D&D Paladin losing powers if he switches from Lawful Good). However, if the Patrons just taught you the powers, then I don't see keeping them as a problem if you switch. Like Desdomona doesn't lose her Demon Summoning upon switching...
So which is it?
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This is a paid expainsion, the Devs have never brought out anything that you have to pay to get that you cant access from level 1, or at least level 5. Ao it stands to reason this will essentially be a new starting contact, endgame contact and anything in between for thoses that buy it.
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Not if buying CoH:GR gives you access to the whole game. You'd start as normal in Paragon or Rogue Isles and then, like everybody else, be able to visit the expansion areas.
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Seeing as you CAN always swap back I would imagine any of these things 'Lost' in the swap would be active when you return. Meaning you would only have acess to Villain stuff as a Villain and Hero stuff as a Hero, but nothing will be lost.
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Making it easy to flip flop back and forth at whim? Yeah, I can see the devs wanting that.
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Not. My bet is you lose that stuff for good. They may not be willing to make side-switching a one-way trip, but I bet they will want to discourage it somehow. Not that anyone would really "lose" anything that is tradeable. They'd just give it to their alts that are staying put on that side.
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With the swap over I would sumise that you would start as level 1, like you just swapped to your second build, and have to retrain to your present level. Which would give you access to 2 builds Hero side and 2 Builds Villain side. As there there is no easy way to merge the economys I caution a guess that this would be the way to go.
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I suppose they could do that, but again it makes it really easy to return to your original side and just have all your enhancements back as before.
Replacing an entire build's worth of enhancements without being able to carry over any inf would certainly qualify as a way to discourage rampant side-switching, but it might be a little TOO harsh. If you're not already loaded with inf on both sides of the game, how do you start over at a high level with no money and no enhancements? Day trading at Wentworths?
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So I would guess this would be a Co-Op'ish area, they might add a PvP Zone to seperate the 2 sides of the fence. But I would Doubt they would make it mandatory for a side swap. They would probably have a Neutral Zone where there is an uneasy truce and where the actual transition from one side to the other would occur.
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There are already PvP zones that connect both sides, but it stands to reason the actual switch might occur in Pratoria. No expansion? No side-switching. Pay up!
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I'd say Dual Pistols and Demon Summoning would be avialable for everyone though, no reason to limit it to the people who buy the expansion
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Debatable. Any feature of Going Rogue is an incentive to buy Going Rogue. I think you may be right, but I could see it going either way.
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Id guess they will proliferate Thermal Secondary to MMs for Demon Summoning, a more team focused version of Devices for Fenders maybe and probably proliferate a few more just to make things more enticing to try all sorts of ATs while Side Swapping.
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I expect Pistols will go to all ranged ATs. After Blades and Shields, the ranged folks are due. So Blasters, Corruptors, and Defenders get Dual Pistols. MMs get Demon Summoning. Proliferations are anyone's guess.
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
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How are the Patron Powers granted? I assumed that the Patrons more or less just taught you how to use the powers and how to access their source (like a master wizard teaching an apprentice). I never really thought the Patrons were the source of the Powers themselves (as if they were mini-Gods or something)
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They never explain it.
Some of the villain ones make thematic sense for you to have to give up in a swap. Ghost Widow's are you calling up the souls of defeated foes. That doesn't sound terribly heroic, even in a world where heroes tote around assault rifles with underslung dry bars or weild the power of the netherworld.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
So, heroes and villains will get to change sides in the new expansion.
Villains are going to need some ancillary power pools for when they turn good.
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