[ QUOTE ]
It is okay and it is a good thing. Don't try to marry exploits/outliers to content that can be farmed in general they are not the same.
In terms of the AV, EB, Boss and LT missions they do not fall into the expliot category nor the outlier category. Castle's all AV mission would be an example of this.
If your point is nobody should be making missions that can be farmed with MA, I would just say that crusade is a total waste of time. People are going to make missions that can be farmed with MA and they will farm them, period. None of those people are in ANY danger of being banned etc... anymore than your average BM or TV farmer.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agree. And pretty much what I've been driving at since before the announcement.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Devs have to respond; with nerfs, tougher foes, or code that just plain slows you down
[/ QUOTE ]
Since MA, I've been using an increase in mob size spawn to create tougher foes through zerging in an enclosed area. The problem is, the old way of farming is still there - fill/pad, spawn a map, and solo. I used to do this because it was the only option to create larger spawns for smaller teams. MA has added that extra difficulty into the game for me without touching the other parts of the game for everyone else. I ran radio missions for the first time a few nights ago, and it was boring and insanely easy on invincible.
[ QUOTE ]
Farming affects everyone. I can't prove that, but you know it's true
[/ QUOTE ]
I see that thrown around alot like it's a bad thing. If it does affect everyone, it's in a positive manner.
[/ QUOTE ]Everyone's actions affect everyone else in the game, in some ways. Farming's effects run both ways. Some good, some bad.
[ QUOTE ]
Farming is just one part of an overall strategy to get that build. Efficient use of the market to rob roleplayers is the other part.
[/ QUOTE ]
Right - because, just like farmers are always exploiters, roleplayers are always bad at math and economics, right?
[ QUOTE ]
roleplayers are always bad at math and economics
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm actually unaware of a market participation strategy that really requires any significant knowledge of either.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anything a farmer can do, a non-farmer can do (in general). The practice spreads beyond those people who can 'handle' it. It spreads to people who hate it but now beleive they have to do it, and it spreads to just plain TOO MANY people.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's called a slippery slope argument. It's a well known logical fallacy. If it were true why isn't everyone doing it now ?
[ QUOTE ]
Then, before you kow it, Farming is not a few outliers having fun. It becomes the normal speed of the game. "Everyone does it", and all that. It becomes an activity the Devs can't tolerate or ignore, because that all-important average speed to 50 begins to creep up or maybe even leap up.
[/ QUOTE ]
This has been challenged but no one has presented anything to show it is actually true.
[ QUOTE ]
I can't prove that, but you know it's true.
[/ QUOTE ]
No I don't.
[/ QUOTE ]
Slippery Slope: I am just quoting the sentiments I have seen on these very boards. Many posters, speaking for themselves have indeed maintained their belief that they farm, despite their dissatisfaction with the 'grind', "because they feel they have to".
Why isn't everyone doing it: There is nothing that 'everyone' does, including breathe. It is indeed a false statement. I myself do not farm. But the overwhelming sentiment on these boards is that 'everyone' does. More importantly: enough people do it that the Devs took notice and acted. That, to me, is significant. I don't think that the Devs would have taken action without datamining showing enough people engaging in the activity that they felt NOT acting was extremely bad for the game. They put the brakes on activity that was making them money hand over fist. They would not have done that without a perception that some kind of doom or major harm was imminent.
You know it's true: I will concede the point; it is entirely possible that you don't know it's true.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
[ QUOTE ]
It is okay and it is a good thing. Don't try to marry exploits/outliers to content that can be farmed in general they are not the same.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm not. I never have. I've made the exact same distinction in regards to exploits many, many times. I'm not familiar enough with your usage of "outliers" to say either way.
[ QUOTE ]
In terms of the AV, EB, Boss and LT missions they do not fall into the expliot category nor the outlier category. Castle's all AV mission would be an example of this.
[/ QUOTE ]I've never claimed they did. I'm not sure anyone would call them actual "Farm Missions", either.
[ QUOTE ]
If your point is nobody should be making missions that can be farmed with MA, I would just say that crusade is a total waste of time. People are going to make missions that can be farmed with MA and they will farm them, period. None of those people are in ANY danger of being banned etc... anymore than your average BM or TV farmer.
[/ QUOTE ]My point was exactly what I said: "Farming with MArch content, even custom content, isn't prohibited. Building missions that are specifically optimized for Farming appears to be what's banned. (By which I mean 'designed to maximize the Rewards AND minimize the Effort'.)"
It appears, though, that we are, at least to some extent, actually in agreement on that, and I apologize if I gave the impression I thought you saying the opposite.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes but my perspective has a 1000 years of jurisprudence and cultural norms behind it.
[/ QUOTE ]
You really don't. This isn't a court of law or anything like it. This is you paying to "go over to someone else's house" to play with their toys. Their rules, whether you agree with them or not. Specifics are not given to avoid exactly the kind of "rules lawyering" you're thriving on.
[/ QUOTE ]
and you would be wrong. Just like letting some one spend the night at your house. Once money is exchanged, different rules apply. You must go through eviction proceedings before you can remove them, if you have accepted their money.
[/ QUOTE ]
I work in a hotel. You couldn't be more wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hotels have specific laws pertaining to them. Private homes do not. Try again.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, private homes can throw people out for any reason they want. They're called "trespassing laws". And agreements between private individuals are just that, agreements. If I let you pay to stay at my house and I tell you "but I'm throwing you out if I don't like the way you're acting", there's no laws broken at all and I need no agreement, court orders or specific eviction procedures to do so.
I don't think I'm the one that needs brushing up on U.S. law here. 
Dec out.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes but my perspective has a 1000 years of jurisprudence and cultural norms behind it.
[/ QUOTE ]
You really don't. This isn't a court of law or anything like it. This is you paying to "go over to someone else's house" to play with their toys. Their rules, whether you agree with them or not. Specifics are not given to avoid exactly the kind of "rules lawyering" you're thriving on.
[/ QUOTE ]
and you would be wrong. Just like letting some one spend the night at your house. Once money is exchanged, different rules apply. You must go through eviction proceedings before you can remove them, if you have accepted their money.
[/ QUOTE ]
I work in a hotel. You couldn't be more wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your mini bars have price lists ?
[/ QUOTE ]
What "mini-bars"?
Dec out.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
COX style farming is here to stay and helps keep a lot of people renewing their subs each month.
Exploit/outlier farming is not good for the game, has been removed and is no longer an issue as of the patch that removed the exploits/outliers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Has it, really? Stand in the AE building in Cap Au Diable on Virtue. The LFF and Farm LFM broadcast and local is still there, just not as bad as it was.
[/ QUOTE ]
Those people are Boss and Lt farming.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's still farming. I even still see arcs in the MA list that say "farm", for example "Lvl 54 Farm for 40+" and they're not talking about Old McDonald.
[/ QUOTE ]
YES it is still farming and thats what I said in the first post. "Exploits and Outliers" are GONE. There is a difference.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would explain why this isn't so, but it's policy not to advertise exploits. It just isn't true. There are still exploits that need to be closed.
Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes. - Sweet_Sarah
BOYCOTT NCSoft (on Facebook)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/517513781597443/
Governments have fallen to the power of social media. Gaming companies can too.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LOL not if you don't have a decent build. Farming is just one part of an overall strategy to get that build.
[/ QUOTE ]
You can get a good build without farming. I have never farmed and I've done most of what you've stated as being "extreme content". I always run on challenge level 4/5 with all my characters (and I have alot). I solo AVs on my 50s all the time.
Farming is an UNNECESSARY part of an overall strategy to get a decent build. You can get a decent build WITHOUT farming quite easily.
The statement that nothing in this game requires farming to accomplish is still absolutely true.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes because you say so. We haven't had a thousand threads saying things are too pricey at the market. That the good stuff isn't available, that casual players can't get a good build, etc etc etc. Nope none of that ever happened.
[/ QUOTE ]
It happened. but only because morons who dont understand the market think its actually expensive to play it.
Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
Arc ID 58363!
[ QUOTE ]
There are still exploits that need to be closed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Have you reported these unclosed exploits to the devs? Good now let the devs do their job.
Whatever exploit you are referring too obviously is not well known so for the purposes of the discussion in this thread I'll modify it to no well known exploits are being used. Happy?
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
[ QUOTE ]
It happened. but only because morons who dont understand the market think its actually expensive to play it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Be thankful for them. Somebody has to get the bad end of the deal
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes but my perspective has a 1000 years of jurisprudence and cultural norms behind it.
[/ QUOTE ]
You really don't. This isn't a court of law or anything like it. This is you paying to "go over to someone else's house" to play with their toys. Their rules, whether you agree with them or not. Specifics are not given to avoid exactly the kind of "rules lawyering" you're thriving on.
[/ QUOTE ]
and you would be wrong. Just like letting some one spend the night at your house. Once money is exchanged, different rules apply. You must go through eviction proceedings before you can remove them, if you have accepted their money.
[/ QUOTE ]
I work in a hotel. You couldn't be more wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hotels have specific laws pertaining to them. Private homes do not. Try again.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, private homes can throw people out for any reason they want. They're called "trespassing laws". And agreements between private individuals are just that, agreements. If I let you pay to stay at my house and I tell you "but I'm throwing you out if I don't like the way you're acting", there's no laws broken at all and I need no agreement, court orders or specific eviction procedures to do so.
I don't think I'm the one that needs brushing up on U.S. law here.
[/ QUOTE ]
actually, you are. What is a rental contract? an agreement between 2 people. The laws vary from state to state, but I know from personal experience that evicting someone is not as easy as calling the police and saying the other person is trespassing.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
[ QUOTE ]
Slippery Slope: I am just quoting the sentiments I have seen on these very boards. Many posters, speaking for themselves have indeed maintained their belief that they farm, despite their dissatisfaction with the 'grind', "because they feel they have to".
[/ QUOTE ]
The farmers repeatedly said they farm because they enjoy it.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that the Devs would have taken action without datamining showing enough people engaging in the activity that they felt NOT acting was extremely bad for the game. They put the brakes on activity that was making them money hand over fist. They would not have done that without a perception that some kind of doom or major harm was imminent.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have only been playing the game for about a year, and my experience is somewhat limited, but there is one thing I am sure of. The devs can't datamine the time of day in less than a month.
[ QUOTE ]
They put the brakes on activity that was making them money hand over fist.
[/ QUOTE ]
I also know this is not the first time, and its not the first time they have distorted their reasons for doing things.
[ QUOTE ]
The farmers repeatedly said they farm because they enjoy it.
[/ QUOTE ]
True. However, there are also posters that do not enjoy farming, but profess they do it anyway out of a perceived need.
[ QUOTE ]
I have only been playing the game for about a year, and my experience is somewhat limited, but there is one thing I am sure of. The devs can't datamine the time of day in less than a month.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is why I beleive it took around a month for them to act.
[ QUOTE ]
I also know this is not the first time, and its not the first time they have distorted their reasons for doing things.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you are not going to beleive the Devs's stated reason for doing things, that leaves you to make up your own reasons. Lots of people do it.
But whether or not you beleive anything the Devs say, logic persists that the only reason to refuse a customer's money is because you beleive accepting it would be ultimately bad for business.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
[ QUOTE ]
actually, you are. What is a rental contract? an agreement between 2 people. The laws vary from state to state, but I know from personal experience that evicting someone is not as easy as calling the police and saying the other person is trespassing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Allowing someone to stay at your residence is far far different from renting someone a property, money aside. I also know for a fact that in the situation we're talking about, the police can and will remove a no longer desired "guest" whether they paid you some money to cover your expenses or not. Perhaps, as you note, it's a difference in our state laws, though, and we've gotten WAY WAY off on a tangent so I'm just going to jump off this derailment. Feel free to have the last word (just to note that I'm not trying to grab that and run).
Dec out.
[ QUOTE ]
But whether or not you beleive anything the Devs say, logic persists that the only reason to refuse a customer's money is because you beleive accepting it would be ultimately bad for business.
[/ QUOTE ]
Simple incompetence comes to mind. This is exactly what happened with ED. Even if you do argue that it was for the longterm good of the game, it was implemented horribly poorly.
B_L_Angel is not alone in doubting the truthfulness of the developers statements. If you just look over recent events
<ul type="square">[*]The Developers are notified of MA overreward problems in closed beta
[*]Developers ignore warnings [*]Developers receive further warning in open beta [*]Developers ignore open beta warnings [*]People post the problems on the boards [*]Further Ignore [*]MA goes live [*]People start using the problems [*]Developers are shocked and upset over this [*]Fit hits the shan over developer reaction [*]We have the accidental pre announcement of going rogue.[/list]
A cynical person might think that they deliberately let the MA over reward during the aniversary/ reactivation period to sucker people into renewing their accounts for a game circumstance they had no intention in allowing them to play.
[ QUOTE ]
A cynical person might think that they deliberately let the MA over reward during the aniversary/ reactivation period to sucker people into renewing their accounts for a game circumstance they had no intention in allowing them to play.
[/ QUOTE ]
That person would have to be ignorant as well as cynical. Not an uncommon mixture, IME.
[ QUOTE ]
# Developers ignore warnings
# Developers receive further warning in open beta
# Developers ignore open beta warnings
# People post the problems on the boards
# Further Ignore
[/ QUOTE ]
Just because they decided not to hold up the release of I14 until after Easter does not imply they ignored the problems. They did get the fixes in pretty quick after I14 release, which indicates to me that they were probably working on them for some time. The sad thing is how little control a tiny minority of the players had when confronted with those well reported weaknesses of the system.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
[ QUOTE ]
Just because they decided not to hold up the release of I14 until after Easter does not imply they ignored the problems. They did get the fixes in pretty quick after I14 release, which indicates to me that they were probably working on them for some time. The sad thing is how little control a tiny minority of the players had when confronted with those well reported weaknesses of the system
[/ QUOTE ]
IIRC you were posting the issue about custom enemies with no ranged attack on the blaster boards. And If I recall, your words were to the effect
"We were told this would not happen"
So when you argue that players had so little control and it was a shame, which side of your mouth was that from ? The self righteous one or the one that egged people on to abuse it ?
So to the OP, to sum it all up...
As you can see from all the unnecessary arguing/fingerpointing/I'm right you're wrong nonsense here in the forums...
The mood isnt great. LMAO Enjoy the game! I know I am.
[ QUOTE ]
As you can see from all the unnecessary arguing/fingerpointing/I'm right you're wrong nonsense here in the forums...
*
The mood isnt great...
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, this is an Internet Forum, of course there's going to be unnecessary arguing/finger pointing/I'm Right You're Wrong nonsense, I'd be surprised to find anything else 
[ QUOTE ]
Enjoy the game! I know I am.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup, enjoy the game, I'm enjoying it too, especially when I get feedback comments from people playing my Story Arc despite it being buried in who-knows-where page in the Arc Browser.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As you can see from all the unnecessary arguing/fingerpointing/I'm right you're wrong nonsense here in the forums...
*
The mood isnt great...
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, this is an Internet Forum, of course there's going to be unnecessary arguing/finger pointing/I'm Right You're Wrong nonsense, I'd be surprised to find anything else
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is one of the reasons people like myself hate coming into the forums. I can only take so much negativity and its just a game lol.
However, I think I may have played (or started playing?) your mission Xenite! I remember seeing it and sayin "dam, I gotta try that one", but maybe I was sleepy or got invited to a team or somethin. LMAO Either way I'm gonna go check it out not now but RIGHT now!(as well as Wicked, Wicked Wonderland lol)
I will not contest that there may have been a way of handling the MArc farming situation better. There is always room for improvement.
I myself am an advocate of having the Devs poll us for methods of how to handle potential far future problems, like whatever they are planning for Issue 18 or 19. And being straightforward with reasons why they choose x method of handling a problem, which they have done a bit of in the past.
But in the case of the MArc, it was pretty much all laid out beforehand.
We told them in Beta would be abused.
They said in Beta that they would handle that by enforcing the existing policies against exploitation and modifying game elements as needed.
So far, they have not wavered from that position. They chose enforcement and pulling/adjusting game elements rather than some kind of blanket code solution or not allowing rewards.
It's not what I would have chosen, but maybe it is for the best.
In any case, I think history shows that the Devs are quite willing to overhaul systems when they decide they aren't working, so we have the entire future to hash this out.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
If you reach the last mission in my Story Arc, I think you'd remember... give it a try
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
COX style farming is here to stay and helps keep a lot of people renewing their subs each month.
Exploit/outlier farming is not good for the game, has been removed and is no longer an issue as of the patch that removed the exploits/outliers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Has it, really? Stand in the AE building in Cap Au Diable on Virtue. The LFF and Farm LFM broadcast and local is still there, just not as bad as it was.
[/ QUOTE ]
Those people are Boss and Lt farming.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's still farming. I even still see arcs in the MA list that say "farm", for example "Lvl 54 Farm for 40+" and they're not talking about Old McDonald.
[/ QUOTE ]
YES it is still farming and thats what I said in the first post. "Exploits and Outliers" are GONE. There is a difference.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.