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You thus have the knowledge and experience to recognize that the Comm Officer XP was more than "a bit high." And to recognize that the Comm Officer maps would be considered exploits.
[/ QUOTE ]
You see there is the whole of it. I didnt't play with MA in closed or open beta. As far as I could tell with the auto SK feature in place xp and ticket rewards for MA were and still are off the wall.
They keep bouncing aroud nonsense land.
P.S. The no range attack and the comm officers were brought to the devs attn in open beta and publicly on these boards. They chose to go forward with that as working as intended.
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There are so many things I could say to that. Good luck. 
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I should give up on both of you.
I really can't believe anyone can sit there and argue your positions with a straight face.
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I am just as incredulous as you, but from the opposite perspective.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes but my perspective has a 1000 years of jurisprudence and cultural norms behind it.
The funny tthing to me is, I don't think that most of the guys that are arguing that the Devs should define what an exploit is really want to win that battle.
The devs could define it in terms of rewards/time very easily, and ENFORCE it. They don't realize that the Devs are being NICE.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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That is just idiocy. I play this game to escape from responsibility not take on more.
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Cool. If you can't accept a reasonable amount of responsibility for your own actions, you have two options. Quit the game or play in terror. The devs aren't going to go over it pixel by pixel with you. Deal.
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This IS what it boils down to really.
Put up or shut up. Either leave the game in a ragequit or just shut up and play nice and accept the rules as they have been presented. If they're not clear enough for you, then either play however you want and be prepared for the consequences of your illiteracy or simply leave the game. It's your choice. But you're NOT going to get your way and have the devs say "we're sorry, we think farming and powerleveling is great and we're just going to let everyone do whatever they want". It isn't going to happen. You can't win this fight. Deal with it.
[/ QUOTE ]Smurch, you are 1000% right.
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There are so many things I could say to that. Good luck.
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I should give up on both of you.
I really can't believe anyone can sit there and argue your positions with a straight face.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am just as incredulous as you, but from the opposite perspective.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes but my perspective has a 1000 years of jurisprudence and cultural norms behind it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Funny, the vast majority of the player base had NO TROUBLE understanding the the rules, and approved of Positron's message because they themselves saw the problem and had no trouble whatsoever understanding what he said. The vast majority of the playerbase has enough common sense to determine what is and is not an exploit, has enough reading comprehension skill to understand the rules, and enough literacy to comprehend Positron's post. The vast majority of the player base isn't left saying "BUT they haven't told us what the rules are!" because they did just that, but they take a small amount of common sense to comprehend.
So maybe, since the vast majority of the player base is having no trouble understanding this but you are... maybe, just maybe....
it's YOU.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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[ QUOTE ]
Put up or shut up. Either leave the game in a ragequit or just shut up and play nice and accept the rules as they have been presented. If they're not clear enough for you, then either play however you want and be prepared for the consequences of your illiteracy or simply leave the game. It's your choice. But you're NOT going to get your way and have the devs say "we're sorry, we think farming and powerleveling is great and we're just going to let everyone do whatever they want". It isn't going to happen. You can't win this fight. Deal with it.
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL you aren't a dev and you don't speak for them. Deal with it.
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So maybe, since the vast majority of the player base is having no trouble understanding this but you are... maybe, just maybe....
it's YOU.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is that like Nixon's silent majority or Obama's overwhelming mandate ?
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You thus have the knowledge and experience to recognize that the Comm Officer XP was more than "a bit high." And to recognize that the Comm Officer maps would be considered exploits.
[/ QUOTE ]
You see there is the whole of it. I didnt't play with MA in closed or open beta. As far as I could tell with the auto SK feature in place xp and ticket rewards for MA were and still are off the wall.
They keep bouncing aroud nonsense land.
P.S. The no range attack and the comm officers were brought to the devs attn in open beta and publicly on these boards. They chose to go forward with that as working as intended.
[/ QUOTE ]You know what? I don't really care anymore. You are picking and choosing only the bits that you WANT to respond to, and avoiding the rest. You have made it very clear, by your own actions, that you are not willing to stand behind your own words, and have a serious, rational discussion about them.
You've played the game long enough to know the rules. You are smart enough to be able to follow them. Whether you will admit it or not, you know the Comm Officers were an exploit. Whether you will admit it or not, you also know whether you abused the system so badly that you are at risk of being banned for it.
The Mission Architect is a new system, and it has a new rule, specifically for the Mission Architect: "Do not build Farms." You are smart enough and experienced enough to be able to follow that rule, if you want to.
If you don't want to, fine. It's your choice, play the game however you want to.
But if you (or anyone else) choose to play outside the rules, sooner or later, you WILL get thumped for it. When you do, don't moan and complain and whine about it. Don't claim you "didn't understand". Don't claim you "didn't know". Don't claim that because the Devs didn't make it so you COULDN'T break the rules, it's not your fault that you did.
You are the only one who decides whether or not you follow the rules. If you choose not to, you are the only one responsible for whether or not you get punished for it, because you are the one that chose not to. If you can't handle that, then Don't. Break. The Rules.
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You've played the game long enough to know the rules. You are smart enough to be able to follow them. Whether you will admit it or not, you know the Comm Officers were an exploit. Whether you will admit it or not, you also know whether you abused the system so badly that you are at risk of being banned for it.
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See castles definition of farming.
I don't even want to go into the lack of definition or guidance on exploits.
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You've played the game long enough to know the rules. You are smart enough to be able to follow them. Whether you will admit it or not, you know the Comm Officers were an exploit. Whether you will admit it or not, you also know whether you abused the system so badly that you are at risk of being banned for it.
[/ QUOTE ]
See castles definition of farming.
I don't even want to go into the lack of definition or guidance on exploits.
[/ QUOTE ]And how does EITHER of those statements relate to the quote? You just continue to make my arguments for me. Thank you.
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You've played the game long enough to know the rules. You are smart enough to be able to follow them. Whether you will admit it or not, you know the Comm Officers were an exploit. Whether you will admit it or not, you also know whether you abused the system so badly that you are at risk of being banned for it.
[/ QUOTE ]
See castles definition of farming.
I don't even want to go into the lack of definition or guidance on exploits.
[/ QUOTE ]And how does EITHER of those statements relate to the quote? You just continue to make my arguments for me. Thank you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Look there are no "rules"
You can't list them you can't point to them the developers can't even agree on them. Thats how it relates.
I'll even go further, if they actually start trying to enforce rules they haven't enumerated, in any great degree it won't be pretty for this game.
This game even after 5 years still has potential but its the same potential that has been untapped all this time.
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This game even after 5 years still has potential but its the same potential that has been untapped all this time.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to incite a flame war or anything, but am merely curious as to what potential you see for this game. You obviously enjoy the game enough to pay the subscription each month. What if you were the Lead Developer and could take the game in any direction, where would you like to see it go?
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This game even after 5 years still has potential but its the same potential that has been untapped all this time.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to incite a flame war or anything, but am merely curious as to what potential you see for this game. You obviously enjoy the game enough to pay the subscription each month. What if you were the Lead Developer and could take the game in any direction, where would you like to see it go?
[/ QUOTE ]
I am a little pressed for time so pardon me if I am brief.
Persistence. Everything we do in this virtual world is ephemeral. It vanishes like morning fog before the sun. We have epic battles every day that decide nothing for even the briefest lengths of time.
Edit: kicks self for not mentioning it the first round. The world needs to stand more on its own two feet and rely less on fiat.
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You acknowledge that the comm officers were "out of whack". Which implies you understand that using them the way they were being used was also "out of whack". And, you are not brand new to the game, so you also know that taking advantage of something that is "out of whack" "should not be done".
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No there are all kinds of things I consider out of whack that the devs may or may not. It can be little things like using the Ouro to get to cimerora or it can be larger things. I don't make the call on whats legit or not. They do. You can say I should have endlessly but the fact is there is no way I could have.
As I said above I play this as a game to relax. I don't see myself as deputy dev. While I will certainly abide by rules and even the requests of the developers they actually need to make them. Asking me to guess and threatening me if I guess wrong is really not a relaxing scene for me.
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"While I will certainly abide by [the] rules . . . ."
You recognized that the Comm Officers were behaving in an unintended manner. (That they were "out of whack.")
You have been playing the game long enough to know that stacking a map with them to maximize that unintended behavior would be considered an exploit.
You have been playing the game long enough to know that using exploits is against the rules, and has been since before even this particular exploit.
So how does the Devs not specifically TELLING you not to use this exploit excuse you from following the rules you already knew?
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What you are saying is that the devs make changes in the game because they are not WAI. If you use these not WAI parts of the game you are exploiting. The devs changed EM, thus it was not WAI. Every player that used EM prior to the change was an exploiter.
What he was saying is there is a difference between something that needs change and a code exploit. Comm officers giving too much xp was not a code exploit, it was an oversight by the devs that they knew about long before they changed it. A simple MOTD saying "dont do this or else" would have taken care of all the debate. Simple as that. It wouldnt be retroactive punishment, simple deal with those that ignored a popup that everyone logging in would have seen. End of discussion.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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You've played the game long enough to know the rules. You are smart enough to be able to follow them. Whether you will admit it or not, you know the Comm Officers were an exploit. Whether you will admit it or not, you also know whether you abused the system so badly that you are at risk of being banned for it.
[/ QUOTE ]
See castles definition of farming.
I don't even want to go into the lack of definition or guidance on exploits.
[/ QUOTE ]And how does EITHER of those statements relate to the quote? You just continue to make my arguments for me. Thank you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Look there are no "rules"
You can't list them you can't point to them the developers can't even agree on them. Thats how it relates.
I'll even go further, if they actually start trying to enforce rules they haven't enumerated, in any great degree it won't be pretty for this game.
This game even after 5 years still has potential but its the same potential that has been untapped all this time.
[/ QUOTE ]
City of Heroes Rules of Conduct.
City of Heroes User Agreement, aka Terms of Agreement, aka End User License Agreement (EULA).
EVERY game has rules.
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You've played the game long enough to know the rules. You are smart enough to be able to follow them. Whether you will admit it or not, you know the Comm Officers were an exploit. Whether you will admit it or not, you also know whether you abused the system so badly that you are at risk of being banned for it.
[/ QUOTE ]
See castles definition of farming.
I don't even want to go into the lack of definition or guidance on exploits.
[/ QUOTE ]And how does EITHER of those statements relate to the quote? You just continue to make my arguments for me. Thank you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Look there are no "rules"
You can't list them you can't point to them the developers can't even agree on them. Thats how it relates.
I'll even go further, if they actually start trying to enforce rules they haven't enumerated, in any great degree it won't be pretty for this game.
This game even after 5 years still has potential but its the same potential that has been untapped all this time.
[/ QUOTE ]
City of Heroes Rules of Conduct.
City of Heroes User Agreement, aka Terms of Agreement, aka End User License Agreement (EULA).
EVERY game has rules.
[/ QUOTE ]
Seriously you really want to bring that up ?
The comm officers werent a bug. Except in the most insane of senses.
The user agreement pretty much says what everyone of them does. The user has no recourse, the company can do whatever it wants, any portion of the above that is overriden by local and state laws in no way shall invalidate the rest of the document, the company reserves the right to have all ejudication in a friendly jurisdiction.
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What you are saying is that the devs make changes in the game because they are not WAI. If you use these not WAI parts of the game you are exploiting. The devs changed EM, thus it was not WAI. Every player that used EM prior to the change was an exploiter.
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NOT what I said, here or anywhere else.
Exploits are defined in the RoC as "bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits". Actual game history shows that, in this usage, the Devs apply the term "bug" to a wide range of things. That is why I hae frequently used the phrase "bug/glitch/loophole/quirk of the system/whatever that grants unnatural or unintended benefit", because it more accurately reflects the various things that the Devs have called exploits.
I also claimed that anyone who has played the game for a significant amount of time is able to make a pretty good guess as to whether or not something is likely to be considered an exploit by the devs. Anyone who claims to be a "good" farmer, and to have been farming for "a long time", is absolutely capable of recognizing that the Devs would call the Comm Officer farms exploits.
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What he was saying is there is a difference between something that needs change and a code exploit. Comm officers giving too much xp was not a code exploit, it was an oversight by the devs that they knew about long before they changed it. A simple MOTD saying "dont do this or else" would have taken care of all the debate. Simple as that. It wouldnt be retroactive punishment, simple deal with those that ignored a popup that everyone logging in would have seen. End of discussion.
[/ QUOTE ]You can define "exploit" as only a code exploit. But that is not how the Devs define it, as already shown.
The Comm Officers giving "too much" XP may have been an "oversight". Building Farms designed to take advantage of that "oversight" is still an exploit.
Although, unfortunately, Positron used the phrase "retroactive punishment", they actually aren't punishing anyone retroactively. To be retroactive, the punishments would have to be applied before the acts being punished occurred. That's not the case. Maybe he really meant something like "retroactive rules". In that case, the actions would have to have occurred before the rules were put in place. Since the rules against exploitative behavior were put in place when the game was released, that's also not the case. "Retroactive" was an unfortunate choice of words, but it actually just doesn't apply.
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The comm officers werent a bug. Except in the most insane of senses.
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And that's how the Devs use it. In what you call "the most insane of senses." As a farmer, you have enough experience with the game, and enough knowledge of the history of the game, to already know that. And to know that that's how the Devs enforce it.
You can disagree with that. That's fine. That's allowed.
But that's how the Devs use it. Those are the rules the Devs expect you to follow. If you choose not to follow them, fine. That's your choice, and you actually are free to play the game however you want to. But if you choose not to follow the rules, the Devs and/or Game Moderators have the option of applying ANY punishment they feel is appropriate. So if you get thumped because you didn't follow the rules, accept it and move on. If you can't do that, then either don't break the rules, or don't play.
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The user agreement pretty much says what everyone of them does. The user has no recourse, the company can do whatever it wants, any portion of the above that is overriden by local and state laws in no way shall invalidate the rest of the document, the company reserves the right to have all adjudication in a friendly jurisdiction.
[/ QUOTE ]Frankly, I agree with you here. Nor do I think you even exaggerated it to any significant degree.
Regardless, it is still part of the rules of the game that you are expected to follow, and if you can't accept that, you shouldn't play.
Please note that I didn't say that you HAD to follow everything in it. Only that it is part of the rules, and if you choose to play in a way that violates it, then the Devs and/or Game Moderators have the option of applying ANY punishment they feel is appropriate.
Again, if you cannot accept that, you know what your options are.
Frankly, I think you're more than smart enough to be able to understand that if you take risks in your playstyle, well, occasionally you're going to get thumped. You may even lose something that you worked pretty hard to get. I also think you're mature enough to step back, cuss a little, and then shrug it off and go on.
It's interesting to me that there is no anti-farming faction in this argument; there is only an anti-AE-farming faction. The most vocal of this faction have stipulated that they don't consider farming bad or inherently exploitative.
I'm hearing no arguments philosophically opposed to farming itself, or the effects that farming has on the game. I'm just hearing a lot of rules lawyering about what is and isn't an exploit, and arguments about whether or not it's ethical to use AE to farm.
Nobody has offered any insight as to why farming should be done through PI portal missions or the Television, but not through AE. And, just to shore up a possible dead-end discussion, "because the Devs said so," isn't an explanation why one is ok, but not the other. It's just an observation that the Devs have targeted only the AE farms, and not PI/TV farms.
Is it because of exploits like Comm Officers and mobs with no ranged attacks? Those exploits have been dealt with. So why the ticket cap, and why the threats of punishment for those who use AE to create farms? In other words, why is AE farming wrong, whilst PI/TV farming is ok?
Here's my theory: the most vocal opposition to AE farming is coming from powerlevelers who suddenly found it difficult to charge lowbies 5-15M per run on their farms, because better farms were free and available to everyone through AE.
My opinion is that either farming is ok, in which case non-exploitative AE farming is ok, or farming isn't ok, in which case the PI farms need to be very aggressively nerfed, and PI farmkins retroactively punished, too.
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Yes but my perspective has a 1000 years of jurisprudence and cultural norms behind it.
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You really don't. This isn't a court of law or anything like it. This is you paying to "go over to someone else's house" to play with their toys. Their rules, whether you agree with them or not. Specifics are not given to avoid exactly the kind of "rules lawyering" you're thriving on.
Dec out.
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It's interesting to me that there is no anti-farming faction in this argument; there is only an anti-AE-farming faction. The most vocal of this faction have stipulated that they don't consider farming bad or inherently exploitative.
I'm hearing no arguments philosophically opposed to farming itself, or the effects that farming has on the game. I'm just hearing a lot of rules lawyering about what is and isn't an exploit, and arguments about whether or not it's ethical to use AE to farm.
Nobody has offered any insight as to why farming should be done through PI portal missions or the Television, but not through AE. And, just to shore up a possible dead-end discussion, "because the Devs said so," isn't an explanation why one is ok, but not the other. It's just an observation that the Devs have targeted only the AE farms, and not PI/TV farms.
Is it because of exploits like Comm Officers and mobs with no ranged attacks? Those exploits have been dealt with. So why the ticket cap, and why the threats of punishment for those who use AE to create farms? In other words, why is AE farming wrong, whilst PI/TV farming is ok?
Here's my theory: the most vocal opposition to AE farming is coming from powerlevelers who suddenly found it difficult to charge lowbies 5-15M per run on their farms, because better farms were free and available to everyone through AE.
My opinion is that either farming is ok, in which case non-exploitative AE farming is ok, or farming isn't ok, in which case the PI farms need to be very aggressively nerfed, and PI farmkins retroactively punished, too.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's more that, because you're building them yourselves, the MA is open to more exploitation than Dev-written missions. It's really as simple as that.
Dec out.
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Yes but my perspective has a 1000 years of jurisprudence and cultural norms behind it.
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You really don't. This isn't a court of law or anything like it. This is you paying to "go over to someone else's house" to play with their toys. Their rules, whether you agree with them or not. Specifics are not given to avoid exactly the kind of "rules lawyering" you're thriving on.
[/ QUOTE ]
and you would be wrong. Just like letting some one spend the night at your house. Once money is exchanged, different rules apply. You must go through eviction proceedings before you can remove them, if you have accepted their money.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
[ QUOTE ]
Nobody has offered any insight as to why farming should be done through PI portal missions or the Television, but not through AE. And, just to shore up a possible dead-end discussion, "because the Devs said so," isn't an explanation why one is ok, but not the other. It's just an observation that the Devs have targeted only the AE farms, and not PI/TV farms.
Is it because of exploits like Comm Officers and mobs with no ranged attacks?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's because the MA puts unprecedented power in the hands of the players to create content. The intent is for players to create story based content and not farms (source: Original Post, Original Post.)
Now because players have a great deal of power in creating missions, some feel the need to abuse that power to find ways to exploit it for powerleveling purposes. ( I do not say farming because powerleveling can be done through a number of different methods, farming being one),
Now the reality is if people farm the rest of the game, they are limited to the missions designed by the devs, so they presumably have the proper degree of risk/reward. But the problem with the MA isn't the Rikti Comm Officers, it's the ability to make missions LIKE the rikti comm officers... and the rikti dolls, and the melee boss farms... and whatever is the new trend. Because each time something like that happens, the devs have to try and play keep up with the MA and that leaves the rest of us in fear of what will happen to the MA if people continue to abuse it.
Case in point, several villain goups have been removed from the MA entirely because of exploiters (i.e Zig Prisoners). Those of us with arcs that used that group now have our missions invalidated by those changes.
In short, exploiters in the MA hurt EVERY user of the MA. We all get options removed, groups removed, maps removed, because of those exploiters. Farming in the rest of the game doesn't really impact us in nearly as a direct way as it does in the MA. If people abuse it enough, they may remove all rewards from the MA or remove the MA entirely and NONE of us want to see that.
So thats why we're much touchier about abuses in the MA as opposed to farming in the rest of the game. We don't want to see a great aspect of the game limited or removed because of some [censored] infantile jerkwads who can't play nice in the sandbox with the other kids.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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Yes but my perspective has a 1000 years of jurisprudence and cultural norms behind it.
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You really don't. This isn't a court of law or anything like it. This is you paying to "go over to someone else's house" to play with their toys. Their rules, whether you agree with them or not. Specifics are not given to avoid exactly the kind of "rules lawyering" you're thriving on.
[/ QUOTE ]
and you would be wrong. Just like letting some one spend the night at your house. Once money is exchanged, different rules apply. You must go through eviction proceedings before you can remove them, if you have accepted their money.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unless of course you agreed to a legal contract before any money changes hands that say they can boost you for pretty much any reason they see fit if they feel you are violating their rules. Which you did.
Sorry we've been down this road before. Subscribing to a video game is NOT the same, in ANY legal sense, as renting a home. You do not have the same rights as a renter as a video game subscriber. They are entirely different branches of law that are so different that they don't even apply as an analogy.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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That is just idiocy. I play this game to escape from responsibility not take on more.
[/ QUOTE ]
Cool. If you can't accept a reasonable amount of responsibility for your own actions, you have two options. Quit the game or play in terror. The devs aren't going to go over it pixel by pixel with you. Deal.
[/ QUOTE ]
This IS what it boils down to really.
Put up or shut up. Either leave the game in a ragequit or just shut up and play nice and accept the rules as they have been presented. If they're not clear enough for you, then either play however you want and be prepared for the consequences of your illiteracy or simply leave the game. It's your choice. But you're NOT going to get your way and have the devs say "we're sorry, we think farming and powerleveling is great and we're just going to let everyone do whatever they want". It isn't going to happen. You can't win this fight. Deal with it.