City of Heroes Going Rogue - FAQ - Discussion
By
7thCynic,
Posted on: 2009-05-12 08:06 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
I remember when this game was fun.....like 3 years ago. This game is so bland and outdated. The time between issues is way to long. They only thing left to do with this game is argue the same boring arguments on these forums that have been argued for 5 years now. I look at the art and new tech in upcoming MMOs, and I wonder how anyone can stand playing this game anymore.
I figure I'll mess around with GR for a month or two....untill Star Wars Old Republic MMO comes out. Then this 5 year vet is gone for good. Wish they'd just admit this game is old and outdated and start on a new one.
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CoH is the same age as WoW |
Originally Posted by JDub
I remember when this game was fun.....like 3 years ago. This game is so bland and outdated. The time between issues is way to long. They only thing left to do with this game is argue the same boring arguments on these forums that have been argued for 5 years now. I look at the art and new tech in upcoming MMOs, and I wonder how anyone can stand playing this game anymore.
I figure I'll mess around with GR for a month or two....untill Star Wars Old Republic MMO comes out. Then this 5 year vet is gone for good. Wish they'd just admit this game is old and outdated and start on a new one. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Different strokes for different folks, my friend. I've tried a good number of other MMOs on the market, and whether or not they were prettier, they just weren't as fun as City of Heroes was--and continues to be--for me.|
Originally Posted by JDub
I look at the art and new tech in upcoming MMOs, and I wonder how anyone can stand playing this game anymore.
I figure I'll mess around with GR for a month or two....untill Star Wars Old Republic MMO comes out. Then this 5 year vet is gone for good. Wish they'd just admit this game is old and outdated and start on a new one. |
There's nothing wrong with outgrowing a game after several years of playing it. But you also can't demand a game to change drastically so it fits how you want to play. *COUGH* Unless, of course, you're Jack Emmert. *COUGH COUGH!*
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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You realize that the SW:TOR isn't coming out until at least spring 2011 right?|
Originally Posted by JDub
I figure I'll mess around with GR for a month or two....untill Star Wars Old Republic MMO comes out. Then this 5 year vet is gone for good. Wish they'd just admit this game is old and outdated and start on a new one.
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In any case I've never really found graphics to be mandatory for fun. They can certainly enhance a game, but they really aren't necessary.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
CoH is the same age as WoW
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And? Atleast CoH was great at one point. WoW has always sucked.
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Sadly yes...2011 is a long ways out, but that game looks to be worth it. CoH was my first MMO, and I've tried 15+ other MMOs since becoming bored with CoH. I can't find any worth my time. SW:TOR however looks like a great game and worth the wait. Untill then I'll continue to play random free trials to new MMOs with my fingers crossed, and hope that when GR finally comes out, it gives me a few months of enjoyment.
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Originally Posted by Oliin
You realize that the SW:TOR isn't coming out until at least spring 2011 right?
In any case I've never really found graphics to be mandatory for fun. They can certainly enhance a game, but they really aren't necessary. |
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CoH has always been great - and with GR, it's going to get even better |
Originally Posted by JDub
And? Atleast CoH was great at one point. WoW has always sucked.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Older, actually.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
CoH is the same age as WoW
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I also have to wonder why next to no news about GR and even i17. If they are going to try and release an issue every 4 months then 17 should be out soon. Doesn't seem like that is going to happen (oh, when I say soon I mean like in a few weeks...not the CoH soon which is, apparently, a year+) 
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And its not only the 'competition' that moves on to state-of-the-art graphics, NCsoft itself doing it also. With GW2, Aion and Blade&Soul, they already pushed their MMO's to nearly a new graphical standard for the MMO's.|
Originally Posted by JDub
I remember when this game was fun.....like 3 years ago. This game is so bland and outdated. The time between issues is way to long. They only thing left to do with this game is argue the same boring arguments on these forums that have been argued for 5 years now. I look at the art and new tech in upcoming MMOs, and I wonder how anyone can stand playing this game anymore.
I figure I'll mess around with GR for a month or two....untill Star Wars Old Republic MMO comes out. Then this 5 year vet is gone for good. Wish they'd just admit this game is old and outdated and start on a new one. |
If i look at Champions Online, how it looks and feels, it could have been CoH2. Although gameplay and content aint that huge yet, it feels 'new'. The 'push 1 button and wait for the next' is getting old, i dont feel really 'heroic' anymore if i have about 5 powers that i active in a 10second timeframe or standing there 10 seconds waiting for a power to come back from cooldown. And i have to give kudo's to CO for giving a better feeling of a 'hero' (straf while fighting, 'chargeup' powers, so many travel powers). Hell, even WoW has more 'action' atm.
So i hope GR aint only just a expension with 2 new sets and some extra content, but also a trashload of new game mechanics. If i put CoH against the trailers of GW2 or B&S (or even Aion 3.0 for that matter), what would be your 2010 game?
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Emphasis. We need some other things to do besides use power X on target Y till defeated.
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Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
*snip*
So i hope GR aint only just a expension with 2 new sets and some extra content, *but also a trashload of new game mechanics.* If i put CoH against the trailers of GW2 or B&S (or even Aion 3.0 for that matter), what would be your 2010 game? |
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We're sorry. Due to the lack of adequate marketing, user patience has died 90+ days ago. Please try again sans "Soon."
One thing they need to do is update missions. Anyone remember the zone Dark (Whatever its called). It's dry and completely empty. They need to up the xp when street sweeping. Give like a boost when you have a team with you. It's gotten annoying seeing how dry most zones are now. I left for a couple months because it was always the samething. Sewer team, random team random team, Pling Pling. I feel like that dude up there. Just hanging around till the star wars mmo comes out.
But still the colors update was great. I'm glad they added some fighting animations for super strength and MA. I'm hoping they give some to katana, and dual blades as well. I honestly can't wait for the new update. I just hope it's offering more than what I'm expecting.
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You mean like crafting IOs, building a Super Group base, writing your own missions in the AE building, roleplaying, etc?|
Originally Posted by Anti_Product
We need some other things to do besides use power X on target Y till defeated.
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Yeah, they should definitely add in the ability for us to do all that stuff I just said above.
Oh, wait...
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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What do you have to do to get the materials to craft these IO's.. or to get the prestige to build your base, or after you've written your mission?|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
You mean like crafting IOs, building a Super Group base, writing your own missions in the AE building, roleplaying, etc?
Yeah, they should definitely add in the ability for us to do all that stuff I just said above. Oh, wait... |
More gameplay mechanics please.
Global: @Pandemonia
We're sorry. Due to the lack of adequate marketing, user patience has died 90+ days ago. Please try again sans "Soon."
Has it been said if Epic Archtypes will be able to switch sides? Was holding off on playing my crab spider until I knew otherwise.
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He was refering to game mechanics, that has little to do how to spent your time outside leveling in this game. Sure, you can say you do this all day, but face it.. the mechanics are getting way behind compared to what is offered today. But i dont really expect any massive change to the combat-system as it is today, neither GR or (if ever) CoH2.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
You mean like crafting IOs, building a Super Group base, writing your own missions in the AE building, roleplaying, etc?
Yeah, they should definitely add in the ability for us to do all that stuff I just said above. Oh, wait... |
And you may be all happy with the game as it is, but that has no single value to the future of this game (go play on europe servers, see how fast u get bored).
CO may not be the best game, but they show insane potential to what game mechanics 'hero games' can have, combined with the knowledge of B&S developers, they can lift this game to unseen heights. Instead, they linger on with the 'same ol.. same ol'.
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| One thing they need to do is update missions. Anyone remember the zone Dark (Whatever its called). It's dry and completely empty. They need to up the xp when street sweeping. Give like a boost when you have a team with you. It's gotten annoying seeing how dry most zones are now. I left for a couple months because it was always the samething. Sewer team, random team random team, Pling Pling. I feel like that dude up there. Just hanging around till the star wars mmo comes out. |
Today, you dont see 90% of the playerpopulation, they are all in their 'own private little instance', the only odd time you see them is at the AH, MA or traveling to a mission. Already since newspaper missions zones became deserted, even if CoH was merely 1 huge zone, still you see a very very lonely and empty place, apart from people traveling from mission to mission (and merely adding a random room generator for some diversity).
The fact that basicly 1 person can whipe out 14-16 mobs on his own is part of this, a avarage tank could herd the entire map and still not die, only the agro-cap prevent this. People solo AV's, EB's are mere bosses with a bit more health, where is the difficulty in this whole game? Where is teamplay important, rather than just press your static powerbuttons and wait for FS to kick in again?
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While I think there's lots of potential room for improvement in combat mechanics in general, since I tend to like, on average, only about 2% of all the suggestions made to improve combat mechanics in the game, and since I believe more than 75% of them would actually damage the game**, given a choice between sticking with the mechanics we have and implementing *any* suggestions to improve them, risk analysis tells me to stick with the current ones.|
Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
He was refering to game mechanics, that has little to do how to spent your time outside leveling in this game. Sure, you can say you do this all day, but face it.. the mechanics are getting way behind compared to what is offered today. But i dont really expect any massive change to the combat-system as it is today, neither GR or (if ever) CoH2.
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** Champions Online is proving to be an excellent point of reference for me for all future game design discussions with actual game developers in this regard: even the game mechanical changes I *like* seem to have very interesting deleterious side effects that don't have trivial workarounds.
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As my friend below asks, what does it take to do all that? But to further his point versus yours, what do you have to do to have a nice looking base? Spend hours stacking this or that, to create walls and floors that aren't already available and risk corruption when you've stacked too many things in your base.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
You mean like crafting IOs, building a Super Group base, writing your own missions in the AE building, roleplaying, etc?
Yeah, they should definitely add in the ability for us to do all that stuff I just said above. Oh, wait... |
How many IO's can you craft before the effort becomes pointless. If you just craft for yourself, how often do you really need to craft?
Oh, the market, well, how much Infamy/Influence does a hero really need before there is no point but to go into the RMT business by yourself?
AE Missions, again, nice idea, but again, the point becomes why bother. Most of the maps get overused. Stories by my friends are one thing, but to be honest, there is often no real reason to go through the stories of everyone else. Most of the in-game stories ceased to be about the story, but about my zipping through everything defeat boss, or click glowie, fight Mob X and maybe Y, end mission. I've done every single mission villain side at least once, and can't say that the stories are all that different. Just a difference in Mobs most of the time. I love the idea of the AE system, but to be honest, I became discouraged after one of my favorite items, Badges were taken out. Those gave me reason to try other peoples stories, help someone get a badge, and then others saw it as a reason to target others so that they couldn't get the badge. Now, unless it is someone I know, no real reason to do AE mission, except for farming.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Product
What do you have to do to get the materials to craft these IO's.. or to get the prestige to build your base, or after you've written your mission?
More gameplay mechanics please. |
For me: I would personally be happy if they took all their existing systems and extras, "Costumes", "AE", "SG Bases", "IO's", etc, and made an issue that expanded or tweaked all of these in some manner. Maybe added a handful of pieces, just a few walls and floors for use in the bases, a few new recipe costume pieces, and they could even design a costume piece recipe formula that used "Candy Canes" as well as other invention salvage for next years event. (Now whether that idea would actually work is another entity altogether.) Maybe add some new AE only maps.
Something along these lines to expand what we already have. After all, we've got the same costume piece recipes since they were introduced without any new ones being added.
I'll take a look at GR when it does arrive, but at this time, I'm not hopeful. I'm one of those, no matter how many flavors they add to the Ice Cream list, I'll always go with Chocolate. I don't need a new flavor, I need more of the flavor I already like.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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The fried baloney sandwich problem
Spelling seems to be in order as far as I know this is readable for all you spelling Nazi's out there (btw it is kind of long, these are also my observations on the matter.)
this dinner opens for business the dinner is called Paragon studio's very nice place. The only thing they serve is fried baloney sandwich that it. Of course you can get variate you can have cheese (sg/vg) on it, miracle whip (A.E), dill pickles (markets) etc.
Basic you have one choice* a fried baloney sandwich now this goes on for some time. fast-forward* 3 years later* they still have one choice the fried baloney sandwich. Now even the old timers that have come back for all these year's are complaining that Paragon Studio's is plain, outdated etc.
Now the short order cooks (Dev's) are very confused* when people start asking for fries. (why don't we have full customization or can we get a revamp of shadow share) with there sandwich. Then denial* well if you don't want a fried baloney sandwich no everyone loves are sandwich (im not sure I've every seen this public jack?)
Anger* a customer sits down to eat may I have some fries with that? Short order cooks (Dev's) HELL NO NOW GET OUT. (Im not sure if I've every saw the Dev's do this public maybe Positron(Matt Miller) with the whole AE bit.)
Consed* The customer walks in too find a all you can eat sign up with unlimited choice. (A.E. Would be one of those, Going rogue it looks to be another.) Does this happen over night NO it takes time how long did it take the Short order cooks errr I mean the Dev's to reach this point I don't know. Although it seems they have reached that point and are now making the most of it.
Will they loose customers (players) yes will they gain new ones yes. With that said I know the Dev's see this at least at first glance it seems they see this and have been working towards it for some time now.
There is only so much you can do with only 6 people (that right?) this was pre-ncsoft days which created as a byproduct a time debt for the game. Which it seems is why they are behind so to speak on the 8ball now I don't think this is only player perspective but part o the mmo gene moving forward.
* Henry ford once said That the customer can have any color they choice as long as it is black. I agree with that too a point.
* I miss that show flash-forward
* confusion, denial, anger, acceptance: This is usually how the stages are for a new idea to take root. Just look at history for a reference newton, ford etc.
sincerly yours:
Bzald of TopTen
ok maybe not that long
sincerly yours:
Bzald of TopTen
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Please, expand on this. I am somewhat interested in game design, so the unintended negative repercussions of what seem to be good ideas on paper is endlessly fascinating to me.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
** Champions Online is proving to be an excellent point of reference for me for all future game design discussions with actual game developers in this regard: even the game mechanical changes I *like* seem to have very interesting deleterious side effects that don't have trivial workarounds.
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Are you primarily referring to everyone gravitating to the same build when given unrestricted choice?
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I'm referring to a lot of things. For example, I like the blocking mechanic: it fits with the unrooted combat and allows for a better way to add complexity to the damage/defense equations of combat. I like the shift to activity-based endurance (although I'm not as crazy about the concept of specific endurance-builders specifically). Combine those two with a zero-recharge power system (with minimal cool down) though, and you can end up with a system where the sweet spot for combat has just enough blocking in it that you get virtually unlimited endurance "for free" as part of your general defensive strategy, and can therefore cycle your most powerful attack(s) almost indefinitely. This then can eliminate endurance as a balancing factor, and by extention eliminate the cost/benefit balancing factors in attacks in general. Then you have people simply gigabolting their way through the game.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Please, expand on this. I am somewhat interested in game design, so the unintended negative repercussions of what seem to be good ideas on paper is endlessly fascinating to me.
Are you primarily referring to everyone gravitating to the same build when given unrestricted choice? |
And bear in mind these are features I *like* combining in potentially design-breaking ways in the launched game. There are also features which have materially affected the evolution of the game in constraining and deleterious ways. One side effect of the "open" powers system is the fact that initially, you could take any *or all* of the defensive powers. I actually sent a PM to Weirdbeard with basically one sentence: this is broken. I think they thought they could get away with that because Champions "gets away with that" but that's mainly because Champions GMs don't let that get out of hand. This prompted the need to create the "passive slot" and with it the passive system, and with that the offensive passive problem (namely: they suck). It also severely constrains defensive diversity: all characters with strong defense basically have the passive-block-heal tuple. They tried to compensate by packing mechanical diversity into the passive defensive mechanisms, but that then created the problem that novel mechanics are not trivial to balance, and I'm still not sure they have or can.
Another casualty of the "open" powers system was the melee archetype. In CoH the melee archetype is justified by granting the melee archetype higher defenses. This not only compensates for "being in more danger" but it also provides a tradeoff justification for surrendering range as a gameplay option. People play scrappers even though they are giving up range, because scrappers offer a completely different gameplay experience. In CO, there is no unique gameplay option that melee focused characters provide, unless you count dying as a gameplay option. Melee offense in CO gives up a lot intrinsicly just by not being ranged. But that option comes with no counterbalancing options unavailable to non-melee characters. So they've essentially created a game which penalizes the conceptual choice of not using range - which is what melee is in CO: its the voluntary choice to not use range.
The rule here is: if choices have no downsides, all the upsides must be identical.
Some of these things I publicly predicted on the closed forums, but some I didn't anticipate at all which makes them interesting learning opportunities.
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Kind of off-topic here, Arcana, but you should seriously think about publishing some sort of book related to game-design and mechanics. Another great post, with things I didn't know before.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm referring to a lot of things. For example, I like the blocking mechanic: it fits with the unrooted combat and allows for a better way to add complexity to the damage/defense equations of combat. I like the shift to activity-based endurance (although I'm not as crazy about the concept of specific endurance-builders specifically). Combine those two with a zero-recharge power system (with minimal cool down) though, and you can end up with a system where the sweet spot for combat has just enough blocking in it that you get virtually unlimited endurance "for free" as part of your general defensive strategy, and can therefore cycle your most powerful attack(s) almost indefinitely. This then can eliminate endurance as a balancing factor, and by extention eliminate the cost/benefit balancing factors in attacks in general. Then you have people simply gigabolting their way through the game.
And bear in mind these are features I *like* combining in potentially design-breaking ways in the launched game. There are also features which have materially affected the evolution of the game in constraining and deleterious ways. One side effect of the "open" powers system is the fact that initially, you could take any *or all* of the defensive powers. I actually sent a PM to Weirdbeard with basically one sentence: this is broken. I think they thought they could get away with that because Champions "gets away with that" but that's mainly because Champions GMs don't let that get out of hand. This prompted the need to create the "passive slot" and with it the passive system, and with that the offensive passive problem (namely: they suck). It also severely constrains defensive diversity: all characters with strong defense basically have the passive-block-heal tuple. They tried to compensate by packing mechanical diversity into the passive defensive mechanisms, but that then created the problem that novel mechanics are not trivial to balance, and I'm still not sure they have or can. Another casualty of the "open" powers system was the melee archetype. In CoH the melee archetype is justified by granting the melee archetype higher defenses. This not only compensates for "being in more danger" but it also provides a tradeoff justification for surrendering range as a gameplay option. People play scrappers even though they are giving up range, because scrappers offer a completely different gameplay experience. In CO, there is no unique gameplay option that melee focused characters provide, unless you count dying as a gameplay option. Melee offense in CO gives up a lot intrinsicly just by not being ranged. But that option comes with no counterbalancing options unavailable to non-melee characters. So they've essentially created a game which penalizes the conceptual choice of not using range - which is what melee is in CO: its the voluntary choice to not use range. The rule here is: if choices have no downsides, all the upsides must be identical. Some of these things I publicly predicted on the closed forums, but some I didn't anticipate at all which makes them interesting learning opportunities. |
Raises interesting points about the BLast/Armour set I keep bringing up in suggestions, and enlightens me as to why Sam is probably more on the mark with his Assault/Armour idea. Hmm...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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The beta is scheduled to start in Q1 - that's anytime from January 1st through March 31st - with a live launch sometime in Q2 - which is anytime from April 1st through June 30th.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork