City of Heroes Going Rogue - FAQ - Discussion
By
7thCynic,
Posted on: 2009-05-12 08:06 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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I think many of them consider it more of a gameplay eventuality than a gameplay option.|
Originally Posted by Sardan
Speaking for blasters everywhere, I'd have to say: yes, we do. Quite enthusiastically, in many cases.
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Heck, my first character was a blaster, and like all blasters the hospital was my first travel power.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm referring to a lot of things. For example, I like the blocking mechanic: it fits with the unrooted combat and allows for a better way to add complexity to the damage/defense equations of combat. I like the shift to activity-based endurance (although I'm not as crazy about the concept of specific endurance-builders specifically). Combine those two with a zero-recharge power system (with minimal cool down) though, and you can end up with a system where the sweet spot for combat has just enough blocking in it that you get virtually unlimited endurance "for free" as part of your general defensive strategy, and can therefore cycle your most powerful attack(s) almost indefinitely. This then can eliminate endurance as a balancing factor, and by extention eliminate the cost/benefit balancing factors in attacks in general. Then you have people simply gigabolting their way through the game.
And bear in mind these are features I *like* combining in potentially design-breaking ways in the launched game. There are also features which have materially affected the evolution of the game in constraining and deleterious ways. One side effect of the "open" powers system is the fact that initially, you could take any *or all* of the defensive powers. I actually sent a PM to Weirdbeard with basically one sentence: this is broken. I think they thought they could get away with that because Champions "gets away with that" but that's mainly because Champions GMs don't let that get out of hand. This prompted the need to create the "passive slot" and with it the passive system, and with that the offensive passive problem (namely: they suck). It also severely constrains defensive diversity: all characters with strong defense basically have the passive-block-heal tuple. They tried to compensate by packing mechanical diversity into the passive defensive mechanisms, but that then created the problem that novel mechanics are not trivial to balance, and I'm still not sure they have or can. Another casualty of the "open" powers system was the melee archetype. In CoH the melee archetype is justified by granting the melee archetype higher defenses. This not only compensates for "being in more danger" but it also provides a tradeoff justification for surrendering range as a gameplay option. People play scrappers even though they are giving up range, because scrappers offer a completely different gameplay experience. In CO, there is no unique gameplay option that melee focused characters provide, unless you count dying as a gameplay option. Melee offense in CO gives up a lot intrinsicly just by not being ranged. But that option comes with no counterbalancing options unavailable to non-melee characters. So they've essentially created a game which penalizes the conceptual choice of not using range - which is what melee is in CO: its the voluntary choice to not use range. The rule here is: if choices have no downsides, all the upsides must be identical. Some of these things I publicly predicted on the closed forums, but some I didn't anticipate at all which makes them interesting learning opportunities. |
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Kind of off-topic here, Arcana, but you should seriously think about publishing some sort of book related to game-design and mechanics. Another great post, with things I didn't know before.
Raises interesting points about the BLast/Armour set I keep bringing up in suggestions, and enlightens me as to why Sam is probably more on the mark with his Assault/Armour idea. Hmm... |
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And the Field Hospital they have put in the Hollows can be a blessing and a curse now |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I think many of them consider it more of a gameplay eventuality than a gameplay option.
Heck, my first character was a blaster, and like all blasters the hospital was my first travel power. |
Am I the only one a little annoyed with how vague the release "date" for GR is? Especially since they did not specify if 2nd Quarter of 2010 was fiscal or calendar. I would have really appreciated a little more clarity on this. It might even be a good idea to release some more information on the subject already, maybe on the GR website which has not been updated in months.
Indeed, little new information available. And quite odd, as GW2 and B&S are already shown several trailers while they are not even gonna launch very soon, Aion already showed the trailer of 3.0, again far from release. So even within the NCsoft divisions there are quite some differences
As for the post of Arcanaville, wonderfull said I really cant say CO is perfect, it has quite alot of flaws (and probably some due the lag i have), but they imho pushed the 'hero concept and its mechanics' to a higher level then CoH currently is. Active defense, active fighting, huge variaty in choice of powers.
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I can't say that I'm annoyed as much as I am disappointed. I was trying to hold out for more GR info or maybe even a small update in between, even if it's just one that fixes some QoL issues.|
Originally Posted by GMan3
Am I the only one a little annoyed with how vague the release "date" for GR is? Especially since they did not specify if 2nd Quarter of 2010 was fiscal or calendar. I would have really appreciated a little more clarity on this. It might even be a good idea to release some more information on the subject already, maybe on the GR website which has not been updated in months.
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For now I'm going to leave my main account active for GR beta; although as time passes with no information and the weather starts to get warmer, I'm less and less interested in GR. I'm definitely going to cancel my second account in the next week after I do some currency/recipe moving to the main one.
It's ashamed that all they have to do is provide a little bit of information to satisfy the player base, even if it's non specific "teaser" info, but aren't doing it.
Sigh....
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
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Carefull what you say here, the 'can i have your st00f' fanbois are lurking this topic.
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Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
For now I'm going to leave my main account active for GR beta; although as time passes with no information and the weather starts to get warmer, I'm less and less interested in GR. I'm definitely going to cancel my second account in the next week after I do some currency/recipe moving to the main one.
Sigh.... |
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lol Well I can't knock them for asking. If they catch me in game while I'm transferring items I might let a few things go as I won't have the time to sell them in WW.
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Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
Carefull what you say here, the 'can i have your st00f' fanbois are lurking this topic.
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Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
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That stuff's not really new. Gameplay-wise, it's very similar to a game like Marvel Ultimate Alliance (or its older incarnations, the X-Men Legends series). Instant activation/no recharge on powers, build up of energy to use special attacks, blocking... it's pretty much all there. Champions Online just happens to be the first superhero MMO to use that style of gameplay.|
Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
As for the post of Arcanaville, wonderfull said
I really cant say CO is perfect, it has quite alot of flaws (and probably some due the lag i have), but they imho pushed the 'hero concept and its mechanics' to a higher level then CoH currently is. Active defense, active fighting, huge variaty in choice of powers. |
Of course, the main difference people like to point out is that you aren't stuck with any one powerset choice... and while that sounds good to the player, as Arcanaville and others have already pointed out, it only widened the gap between "the best powers" and "everything else," with "anything melee" sobbing quietly in a corner with a wedgie and no lunch money.
Anyway, the Marvel Ultimate Alliance style of game play isn't really up my alley, and I felt the same way about Champs. I'm not saying you're wrong for enjoying it, but I am extremely confused as to why--if there's already a game out there with the mechanics you prefer--you're trying to say that this completely different game should "evolve" to copy a game that already exists. Why not just go play the other game instead?
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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The irony of this problem is that CO is supposed to be 'inspired' by the Champions table top RP mechanics, which uses the HERO system, which is a point based system. I'm not familiar with HERO per se, and CO is only 'inspired' by the HERO system and not actually using the HERO system, however, adherence to the tenets of a point-based system would have helped here.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Another casualty of the "open" powers system was the melee archetype. In CoH the melee archetype is justified by granting the melee archetype higher defenses. This not only compensates for "being in more danger" but it also provides a tradeoff justification for surrendering range as a gameplay option. People play scrappers even though they are giving up range, because scrappers offer a completely different gameplay experience. In CO, there is no unique gameplay option that melee focused characters provide, unless you count dying as a gameplay option. Melee offense in CO gives up a lot intrinsicly just by not being ranged. But that option comes with no counterbalancing options unavailable to non-melee characters. So they've essentially created a game which penalizes the conceptual choice of not using range - which is what melee is in CO: its the voluntary choice to not use range.
The rule here is: if choices have no downsides, all the upsides must be identical. |
In most open-ended point-based systems, a melee attack would be considered an attack that has a 'limitation' or a 'disadvantage', namely, such a short range. That would give points back to the creator in order to invest those points into some other ability, such as more damage (or snares or slows so as to close in on a foe). If CO was truly the point-based system Jack originally touted it would be, then melee might actually have been balanced in CO against ranged attacks.
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About the game mechanics, that is somewhat logical: you would be stupid to try reinventing the wheel if it already has been made.
However, more and more MMO's are trying to 'grab' those singleplayer combat aspects in a brave atempt to implement this into a MMO, wich is in certain cases quite an achievement.
The famous 'bullet time' AoC tried as 'fatality' move, single player this is fairly easy but in a multiplayer enviroment that is quite more difficult. The result aint the best, but they done a decent job of putting a single-player aspect into a MMO.
In CO for example they made a more 'fluid' transit of interacting with world-materials. Although this is already quite common in singleplayer games, they manage to make a transit from the pickup to the debree in your hands (unlike most MMO's, it despawns and suddenly spawns in your hand). Being the first doing so doesnt mean you already make it perfect.
Now for a big step, there is currently no MMO that i know off where you can actualy can grab, hold or trow your oponent away. As in CoH, you just recieve a XX ammount of knockback, but the 'entities' remain seperated.
Yet in Blade & Soul, NCsoft new MMO, they seem to have done the impossible, grab, hold, trow, punch, smash your oponent around the map (as the trailer shows, the reaper picksup the defeated guy, trows him up, grab him on his stych and trow him 100 yard down the mountain).
I agree, CO aint trully my favorite playstyle, but it shows a very fresh look at what can be done within a 'hero theme' and in wich ways you can innovate basic aspects of an MMO into a 'feeling new' mechanic. (as Arcane says, the auto-power that builds up your energy, this is basicly the melee 'white' damage of games such as WoW).
So how is this related to CoH? First of all, CoH always sticked to its original mechanics, solid and clear system with only tweaks (ED, new def vs hit etc), yet never game breaking. This is one side very nice, you always have the familiar feeling with the game knowing that what u played 4 years ago is still the same today (mechanic wise, moving, attacking, reacting etc). Other side however, as more MMO's seem to innovate their game (mount fights in WoW, AoC 'free combat', open skill-system of GW or CO etc) the 'familiar' system of CoH starts to feel somewhat old, basic and steady dispite the graphics.
What would be my dream? Imaging Bayonetta in MMO form, insane.
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Here's my 'harumph!' of the day...every Tuesday and Thursday of late, I wait (with increasing impatience) for more word of GR features and/or closed beta startup. Here I am, disappointed again. HARUMPH! :^P
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In all fairness, the announcements usually come in about 5 hours from now. Give or take.
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Originally Posted by Fiftycalsniper
Here's my 'harumph!' of the day...every Tuesday and Thursday of late, I wait (with increasing impatience) for more word of GR features and/or closed beta startup. Here I am, disappointed again. HARUMPH! :^P
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DETAILS, mere details! I harumph in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries! Now, go away, or I shall taunt you a SECOND TIME! :^)
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Originally Posted by Jake_Summers
In all fairness, the announcements usually come in about 5 hours from now. Give or take.
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Basically too many 50's to count, but I'm generally a brute/scrapper/tank kind of guy.
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A non-specific release date is BETTER.|
Originally Posted by GMan3
Am I the only one a little annoyed with how vague the release "date" for GR is? Especially since they did not specify if 2nd Quarter of 2010 was fiscal or calendar. I would have really appreciated a little more clarity on this. It might even be a good idea to release some more information on the subject already, maybe on the GR website which has not been updated in months.
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What would people rather have? A GR release that was rushed to get it out for the 'promised time', or a GR release that came a little bit later, was more thoroughly tested and less bug-filled. Yes, there will still be bugs (I challange anyone to find a release of any sort that DIDN'T have any) but it'd be nice to have a smoother release than one that was rushed.
This is why I prefer films and games to be ready 'When they are Ready', and not before. Rushing things leads to failure.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
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I'll bite your kneecaps off!|
Originally Posted by Fiftycalsniper
DETAILS, mere details! I harumph in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries! Now, go away, or I shall taunt you a SECOND TIME! :^)
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Alright, shall we call it a draw?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Although they said they were going to be "inspired" by the Champions/HERO system, I don't see too much evidence of that (and I followed the development from before closed beta).|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
The irony of this problem is that CO is supposed to be 'inspired' by the Champions table top RP mechanics, which uses the HERO system, which is a point based system. I'm not familiar with HERO per se, and CO is only 'inspired' by the HERO system and not actually using the HERO system, however, adherence to the tenets of a point-based system would have helped here.
In most open-ended point-based systems, a melee attack would be considered an attack that has a 'limitation' or a 'disadvantage', namely, such a short range. That would give points back to the creator in order to invest those points into some other ability, such as more damage (or snares or slows so as to close in on a foe). If CO was truly the point-based system Jack originally touted it would be, then melee might actually have been balanced in CO against ranged attacks. |
Furthermore, in my opinion a major problem with using the HERO system as a guide to making an MMO system is that it really isn't as balanced as people give it credit for. Its balanced enough for a PnP game which is a totally different criteria. In a PnP game human GMs can "autotune" the game in ways which minimize balance discrepancies. In a computer-based MMO, that's not really possible. In a massively multiplayer game with or without a hypothetical GM it might not be possible at all either.
There is nowhere that Champions/HERO shows its questionable numeric balance than in the defensive powers, where even the rulebooks caution you not to let players get too aggressive with them, but even on offense its a bit vulnerable to min/maxing. One of the reasons it can get away with this is that combat is not the only thing that happens in a Champions game usually. Bring a tunnel-visioned min/maxed cannon into a Champions session, and a smart GM will make sure to throw left-field challenges at you that make it impossible to simply steamroll through their campaign. That won't happen in an MMO with a computer at the wheel.
In my opinion the HERO system gives a good set of tools to players and GMs alike to create their collective vision of a good comic book environment, but it does not actually have sufficiently well defined guardrails to allow a computer to replace the GM. Or to put it another way, the rulebook defines the performance of powers, but its ultimately the GM that determines the effectiveness of powers, and that's something MMORPGs currently don't do, and might never be able to do.**
Separately, I'm not sure myself that a well balanced points system alone would fix the "melee problem." I used to think so, but my experience with Champions Online suggests its not just about numerical balance. I think even if melee characters were somehow offensively "better" than ranged ones to compensate for lack of range, it still might not be enough. As I mentioned above, I think there's a separate component to this where melee characters are, separate from any numerical issues, giving up a gameplay option: using range. I now believe that unless you offer them another one in exchange - one not open to other non-melee characters - there is a separate qualitative imbalance that will exist and turn players off to that option.
** I mention that massively multiplayer games have an issue unto themselves. How many times in a PnP gaming session have we heard the words "for this session..." while the GM lays down the house rules, or attempts to reconcile some otherwise potentially game-breaking discrepancies between the players in the session. Its unclear to me this sort of thing can happen when the number of simultaneous players is in the thousands rather than a handful. And that takes a tool away from MMOs relative to PnP games that has nothing to do with the limitations of computers. In PnP gaming sessions, a group of players can explore elements of the game that work for them, but might not work as well for everyone else that plays that game, because those other people aren't there. In an MMO, the world has to work more or less the same for everyone, everywhere, all of the time. At least, I think it does.
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If the devs don't promise us a specific date, there's no chance we'll be able to blame them for breaking that date.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
A non-specific release date is BETTER.
What would people rather have? A GR release that was rushed to get it out for the 'promised time', or a GR release that came a little bit later, was more thoroughly tested and less bug-filled. Yes, there will still be bugs (I challange anyone to find a release of any sort that DIDN'T have any) but it'd be nice to have a smoother release than one that was rushed. |
Ironically, this suggests to some players that they shouldn't promise a specific date, and it suggests to other players that they *should* promise a specific date.
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My case in point would be the Movie Tie-in games. Now, simply by dint of being what they are, they tend to not work well, because movies, by being so narrative, are incredibly hard to make work in game format.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If the devs don't promise us a specific date, there's no chance we'll be able to blame them for breaking that date.
Ironically, this suggests to some players that they shouldn't promise a specific date, and it suggests to other players that they *should* promise a specific date. |
But I suspect that they are also incredible pressure to be brought out 'on time', to tie in with the movies. Hell, sometimes they are released BEFORE the movie, which to me just smacks of really poor design work. It doesn't help that, without fail (for me, at least) all the Movie games have been Average at best, shockingly awful at worst.
It can go too far the other way, though. I can't remember what it was, but some game got pushed back and back and back in development, until it simply failed because no-one gave a damn. Then there is the happy middle-ground, where a game might get pushed back a little bit, but the resulting quality is that much more awesome, which has happened a few times, although I can't for the life of me recall the names...
Either way, more time spent will (usually) mean a more polished result. I know which one I'd pick.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
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I dont personally care about the date. I just want to know bits of information every so often so I can stay excited about it.
I don't want my interest to evaporate. As others have suggested is happening to them.
I believe I've mentioned this before Arcanaville, but with Champions and HERO System, it's more the other way around from what you've said here. HERO Systems actually came out of Champions, in an attempt to build up a universal gaming system to try and rival GURPS. GURPS ("Generic Universal Role-Playing System" - an acronym that Steve Jackson Games claims was just put on it until something better sounding came along) 2nd edition came out just over 20 years ago, emerging from the company's one-on-one man-to-man combat system. It too is a point-based system, but with a set of clear guidlines for building a character.
It should have been a telling point for me that I was able to realize very early on that min/maxing wasn't just insanely easy, it was almost manditory to be able to do what I wanted to do. (It should also be telling that while GURPS is about 3 years into it's 4th edition, HERO Systems is now on it's 6th edition.)
In a way, CO vs. COH seems to be an almost reenactment of the whole HERO Systems vs. GURPS problems years ago. There will always be gamers who will swear by HERO Systems, and swear at GURPS. Then there are other gamers (like myself) who detest HERO Systems because it was such a magnet for all the gaming min/maxing wienies. (BTW, I think I also mentioned this before, but the standard hero stances in CO are taken directly from the hero picture templates from the original PnP game.)
I actually did play CO during their last free weekend. I built two toons, one martial artist and one gun-girl. The martial artist ended up eating a lot of dirt (or snow, when I took her into the Canadian zone) as she died time and again. On the other hand, the gun-girl ROCKED - to the point where I was catching myself saying out loud "Damn, I want this powerset in COH!"
But that just emphesises Arcanaville's point, that certain traits and powers will be coveted by players because they are better over others powers that will be avoided like the plague simply because they aren't as fun to play with. Now COH may not be perfect, and we might find some of the powersets and ATs somewhat limiting, but I was finding myself enjoying COH more after that free weekend.
There are a few things I liked about CO - like the expantion to more than just two colours for costumes, and the fact that you could have things asymetrical (which meant that my gun-girl could have a watch on her right wrist) - that I really wish we could have in here. Just that there wasn't enough there to keep me with that game.
And I'll end with one of my basic wishes for bases. Can we please finally get basic wall and floor building sections to design walls and floors the way we want them in those huge cavernous rooms?
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Why is it worth waiting, if nobody even know where they are waiting for? (apart from a single trailer). Bugs i care little for, new gameplay/features is what i am after.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
A non-specific release date is BETTER.
What would people rather have? A GR release that was rushed to get it out for the 'promised time', or a GR release that came a little bit later, was more thoroughly tested and less bug-filled. Yes, there will still be bugs (I challange anyone to find a release of any sort that DIDN'T have any) but it'd be nice to have a smoother release than one that was rushed. This is why I prefer films and games to be ready 'When they are Ready', and not before. Rushing things leads to failure. |
And it amazes me people comparing the HERO/GURPS to a MMO, it doesnt matter wich rules are being used, its how it is presented to the player. CO has flaws, CoH lacks gameplay, thats my view on both.
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If I understand what you mean by "other way around" I'll acknowledge that the issue of min/maxing and other combat optimization has been long-discussed for Champions and the HERO system (for example, the discussion surrounding killing attacks, which I've forgotten most of by now), but there is a significant subset of players that believe that in spite of that, the system is amazingly well balanced for a points-based system. That position was the dominant one on the early CO boards, and often brought up as a good reason for basing CO on a variant of or "inspired by" the HERO system (even though it wasn't going to be based on HERO itself). I was in the severe minority in suggesting that perhaps the points system encapsulated in the Champions PnP game was *not* a good starting point for a computer MMO, precisely because the imbalances in it would not be moderated by a human GM.
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Originally Posted by Dave_67
I believe I've mentioned this before Arcanaville, but with Champions and HERO System, it's more the other way around from what you've said here.
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could you encapsulate that for me here? I haven't followed CO beyond what is in this forum.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm referring to a lot of things. For example, I like the blocking mechanic
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| I like the shift to activity-based endurance (although I'm not as crazy about the concept of specific endurance-builders specifically). |
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| Combine those two with a zero-recharge power system (with minimal cool down) though, and you can end up with a system where the sweet spot for combat has just enough blocking in it that you get virtually unlimited endurance "for free" as part of your general defensive strategy, and can therefore cycle your most powerful attack(s) almost indefinitely. This then can eliminate endurance as a balancing factor, and by extention eliminate the cost/benefit balancing factors in attacks in general. |
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| One side effect of the "open" powers system is the fact that initially, you could take any *or all* of the defensive powers. ... It also severely constrains defensive diversity: all characters with strong defense basically have the passive-block-heal tuple. They tried to compensate by packing mechanical diversity into the passive defensive mechanisms, but that then created the problem that novel mechanics are not trivial to balance, and I'm still not sure they have or can. |
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Melee offense in CO gives up a lot intrinsicly just by not being ranged. But that option comes with no counterbalancing options unavailable to non-melee characters. So they've essentially created a game which penalizes the conceptual choice of not using range - which is what melee is in CO: its the voluntary choice to not use range. The rule here is: if choices have no downsides, all the upsides must be identical. |
Even in the PnP Champions, one of the turnoffs for me was always that there was no reason outside of concept to have a purely melee character. Sure, a melee attack is cheaper, but when you get to choose all of your powers (and most comic book characters don't), it only makes sense to have some kind of ranged attack even if it is just hurling a car.
In fact, even in the PnP game, most characters end up as (flying) ranged Scrappers (though usually no team buff). It's just one of those comic book conventions that don't carry over well to games: why wouldn't the She-Hulk carry a gun (or at least a roll of quarters she could hurl at bullet speeds)?
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